If war broke out between Morocco and Algeria.

[Knowledgeseeker]

Hey guys!

I wanted to take make a new thread where we could discuss the capablities, and systems between the armed forces of Morocco, and Algeria.

Everything from land forces, air force, and navy to experience and war doctorine.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

@Cabatli_53 @Ryder @Anmdt @UkroTurk @Combat-Master @TheInsider @T-123456 @Saithan @Lool
@Nilgiri

Everyone feel free to contribute, and give your opinons.

I will post what i responded to @Chakib larbi in the other thread. We wanted to make a new thread here outside the main moroccan forum.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Chakib larbi said:
It is good that you admit that the Mica deal was financed by French banks and the same goes for the rest of the deals Which are financed either by French loans or Gulf donations ....But the most important thing is, will these countries continue to fund your logistical capabilities? Regarding ammunition, maintenance and operating costs..The answer is clear, the Moroccan army, in most of its exercises, does not use live ammunition...
But okay, we will stop discussing logistics and financial matters and move on to discussing technical matters But before that, as I told you There is no deal for sep v3 Just talk on the net, as is the same case for the Orizzonte or Himars But there is no statement from the American side about these deals.. so stop chasing illusions...

Back to the Topic

First of all Are you going to chase and shoot down a plane? with your disgnation pod or with your Radar and Irst Systems ......except the block 72+ None of your plane Possesses a radar with the same efficiency and capabilities as the Hybrid Bars N011M Pesa radar on the Su-30 MKI (A) ... for now all of Your planes are still using the old MSA type radars which is very weak and vulnerable in facing Algerian electronic warfare capabilities/assets both in air and land..beside that afaik moroccan army have no capabilities in EW warfare.

The other thing the MiG-29 S fighters of Algerian Air Force are in the phase of decommissioning and they are being replaced by more advanced Mig-29 M2 fighters who outperforms any air fighter currently in Morocco And it will be in the same level with the block 72+ when it get it AESA radar..
But the most important thing for Mig-29 M2 that He brought a new arsenal of weaponry to the algerian inventory like the KH-38 Family of modular missiles and the tactical anti-ship missile Kh-35UE and the RVV-SD Air-to-air missile and the T220/E targeting pod so now we do have a disgnator pod so u can be happy ..

Back to the issue of targeting pod within the Algerian Air Force ..yes until the arrival of the MiG 29 M2 We didn't Operate any disgnation pod but This doesn't mean that we lack of guided weapons ..In fact, we even operate a long range ALCM of the KH-59 Family which was recently supported by the Kh-35UE dual-role cruise anti-ship land-attack missile...AFAIK no cruise capabilities yet in morrocan inventory...

In the end, the failure of the Russian army in Ukraine is due to the failure of Russian tactics - Lack of the concept of combined arms - Lack of extensive use of precision weapons due to high costs - lack of use of intelligence-gathering capability and nothing to do with the quality of their weapos in fact ...And besides all this ,The time of decision to go to war in Ukraine was a strategic mistake and the Russians must now confront the continuing flow of Western weapons into Ukraine Which makes the conflict in Ukraine now more like an endless war ..

But the Algerian-Moroccan conflict is not at all similar to the Ukrainian-Russian global conflict, and It is closer to the Armenian-Azeri conflict .... but be aware We are not the Armenian state..
As I told you earlier In a possible conflict between us, the Moroccan Air Force should first deal with the Algerian anti-access/area denial (A2AD) Which consists of the most advanced Russian and Chinese air defense systems And a full scale integrated network of Russian, Chinese and American medium and long-range radars ,which are operated by Russian and American C4ISR /C5I command and control systems,and supported by huge electronic warfare assets....

You mentioned " the same goes for the rest of the deals Which are financed either by French loans or Gulf donations". I call that only cheap talk, or pure propaganda. Most of the deals are not donations or loans! Morocco does use live ammuniton in it exercises, just follow this thread i will post more videos from the african lion exercise taking place now. Yes lets stop discussing the financial matter of the weapons. I never mentioned morocco acquiring himars, tell me where i mentioned himars?????.

However i mentioned M1 abraham sep V3 deal! You say that this is just illusions, and "twitter" talk. You can take a look into this thread: https://defencehub.live/threads/morocco-to-upgrade-abrams-tanks.1836/. The completion date of the delievery is estimated to be completed March 31, 2022. Please just dont talk about things you dont have knowledge about, or atleast dobbel check on the internet before making a empty statement.


You claim that none of the planes posses the same capabalities as the NO11M pesa radar on the algerian SU-30. You realise that morocco will recieve 24 vipers ( 12 Already delievered), and the rest are getting modernized? Those who are not modernized right now at the moment we speak have the APG-68 radar. Do you really make a claim that the NO11M are better then APG-68? Yes morocco lacks electronic warfdare system but dont forget that the Moroccan f16 are also equiped with AIDEWS. Its also reported that morocco will recieve the koral from turkey, but i guess you will call it twitter post. ( Source: TRT ARABI).

​

Come on bro i cant believe im reading this! Mig-29 M2 better then the Vipers???


I agree with your words when it comes to the ukrainan war except that you mentioned that the war has " Nothing to do with the quality of the weapons". Offcoursae the quality playes a huge role. Thats where i feel you are making big mistakes when comparing the technolgy between the west and the russians. Except that i totally agree with many points you made.


You mentioned now that a conflict between Morocco, and algeria is closer to Armenia-Azeri war, and yes at this moment i do agree! But why did you mention earlier
" Morocco is not a match for Algeria, and it will never be like that". Please think twice before making a statement. I never said that algeria is no match for morocco, or that we are superior in every field. I only mentioned that the moroccan air force will have a edge with the vipers, and the new procurments!

 

[Gary]

Air force: Morocco
Army : Algeria
Navy : Algeria

Overall not that many difference and discrepancy, its the personel that needs to be in question. How good are they ?

Most developing nations armies are not really prepped for warfare but social control.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Air force: Morocco
Army : Algeria
Navy : Algeria

Overall not that many difference and discrepancy, its the personel that needs to be in question. How good are they ?

Most developing nations armies are not really prepped for warfare but social control.

Can you go more in depth? Perhaps mention main systems and weapons. I will come back to you regarding the training and experience part.

 

[Gary]

Can you go more in depth? Perhaps mention main systems and weapons. I will come back to you regarding the training and experience part.

I will make an in depth opinion , but its 2AM in here and I've just finished my work. Maybe tomorrow

 

[UkroTurk]

İ have zero knowledge about Armed Forces of Morocco whereas your rival has informed us very well

 

[TR_123456]

First i would like to see the real operational equipment(NATO standard is 0, minus 1/2/3 etc),manpower,structure,doctrine etc.
Then i can give an honest opinion.

 

[Chakib larbi]

the conflict will not be weapon against weapon but will be in the context of combined arms so it is better to compare the combined arms capabilities of the various weapons of each army.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

İ have zero knowledge about Armed Forces of Morocco whereas your rival has informed us very well

I can give you a litt brief through about the main systems used When it comes to experience between the armies i will share it shortly in another post.


I will try to gi ve you the main platforms used, as for all weapon sytems will be to detailed. I will also try my best to just mention those who are confirmed or atleast strongly+++++ reported.

Air force:
- 48 F16 vipers
- 24 mirage F1 ( Upgraded to the level of Mirage 2000-5).
- 24 apaches 64E best version! ( 12 more optional)
- Drones: TB2 19 (13+ 6)+ 3 Heron drones
- AEW: 4 Gulfstream G550 with IAI EL/W-2085 radar+ 2 falcon 20 for Elint
- Transport: 24 aircrafts ( 14 c-130, 2 of them provide aerial refueling, 6 casa cn-235, and 4 C-27J spartan).




Land forces:
-384 M1 abraham tanks ( 162 M1a2 SEPV3, and the rest M1A1 tanks are either upgraded to M1A2, M1A1 SA or marine corps version).
-427 M60 ( 167 M60A3+ 260 M60A3TTS)
- 148 T-72+ 150 VT-1A ( Used in the southern zones in sahara)

Artillery/Launchers:
- 357 155mm M109 ( M109A6 paladin M109A5s, and mixed version )
- 36 caesar self propelled howitzer.
- 36 PHL 03 MLRS ( Some reports say 72)

Air defence systems:
- FD-2000B 4 batteries ( Reported ordered 2017 but no visual fotage yet)
- sky dragon 50 4 batteries/ 24 launchers ( Ordered in 2017, first time seen in early 2022!)
- vl mica 4 batteries
- 500 million order of Barak MX ( According to israeli media hareetz, globe etc)
- Pac 3 patriot ( Undisclosed amount, (ITA) confirmed/ RT ARAB)

Radar:
- 4 Thales ground master 400 radar.
- EW koral ( TRT ARAB, )

​

Navy:


1 Fremm 6 000 tons
- Thales herakles 3 radar, and Thales altesse ESM. NO ECM ( All system developed by thales)
- 16 cell aster 15 missiles
- 8 exocet block 3
- 2 torpedo launchers

3 sigma corvettes 2300 tons
- 12 VLS
- 4 EXCOCET block 3
- 2 torpedo launchers
- Thales smart-S mk2 3D radar
- EW: Thales vigile 100 ESM system+ Thales scorpion ECM system.



I also have to mention that through the years that algeria have had a huge budget, but now morocco are aiming to be one of the leaders of the continent before 2030. The finance bill in 2022 shows that morocco have allocated 12.8 billion usd to “equipment purchase and maintenance for the Royale Armed Forces,”.

​

 

[Chakib larbi]

First i would like to see the real operational equipment(NATO standard is 0, minus 1/2/3 etc),manpower,structure,doctrine etc.
Then i can give an honest opinion.

lol what does it mean (NATO standard is 0, minus 1/2/3 etc)

 

[Chakib larbi]

I can give you a litt brief through about the main systems used When it comes to experience between the armies i will share it shortly in another post.


I will try to gi ve you the main platforms used, as for all weapon sytems will be to detailed. I will also try my best to just mention those who are confirmed or atleast strongly+++++ reported.

Air force:
- 48 F16 vipers
- 24 mirage F1 ( Upgraded to the level of Mirage 2000-5).
- 24 apaches 64E best version! ( 12 more optional)
- Confirmed TB2 19 (13+ 6)
- 3 Heron drones


Land forces:
-384 M1 abraham tanks ( 162 M1a2 SEPV3, and the rest M1A1 tanks are either upgraded to M1A2, M1A1 SA or marine corps version).
-427 M60 ( 167 M60A3+ 260 M60A3TTS)
- 148 T-72+ 150 VT-1A ( Used in the southern zones in sahara)

Artillery/Launchers:
- 357 155mm M109 ( 60 M109A5s, and the rest M109A2-3 + Paladin)
- 36 caesar self propelled howitzer.
- 36 PHL 03 MLRS ( Some reports say 72)

Air defence systems:
- FD-2000B 4 batteries ( Reported ordered 2017 but no visual fotage yet)
- sky dragon 50 4 batteries/ 24 launchers ( Ordered in 2017, first time seen in early 2022!)
- vl mica 4 batteries
- 500 million order of Barak MX ( According to israeli media hareetz, globe etc)

Radar:
- 4 Thales ground master 400 radar.
- EW koral ( TRT ARAB, )

​

Navy:


1 Fremm 6 000 tons
- Thales herakles 3 radar, and Thales altesse ESM. NO ECM ( All system developed by thales)
- 16 cell aster 15 missiles
- 8 exocet block 3
- 2 torpedo launchers

3 sigma corvettes 2300 tons
- 12 VLS
- 4 EXCOCET block 3
- 2 torpedo launchers
- Thales smart-S mk2 3D radar
- EW: Thales vigile 100 ESM system+ Thales scorpion ECM system.



I also have to mention that through the years that algeria have had a huge budget, but now morocco are aiming to be one of the leaders of the continent before 2030. The finance bill in 2022 shows that morocco have allocated 12.8 billion usd to “equipment purchase and maintenance for the Royale Armed Forces,”.

​

so the comparaison will also include the current/future acquisition

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

so the comparaison will also include the current/future acquisition

Yh go ahead. I just wrote those who are confirmed or strongly reported. Its alot of more weapons that are reported. For example that morocco has around 40 tb2 now, PAC3, and the 1 billion sale of the 4 MQ9 reaper+ 2 Fremm frigates, 2 sumbarines. I dont see enough strong reports so i didnt choose to put it on the list. Can you respond to the first post btw?

 

[Chakib larbi]

Can you respond to the first post btw?

no not today its to late now

 

[Nilgiri]

What time frame are we talking about here? Right now or down the road X years later?

Looking at critical weapons tier (and working way downwards)....neither side has ballistic missiles, but Algeria has some cruise missiles.

i.e Algeria holds a serious first strike advantage on opponents critical infra nodes/assets right now (like airbases, harbours, warships etc)....with Kh-31 and YJ-12.

Though we would need some estimate of numbers they have of these systems to gauge overall impact ability....along with what are the moroccan defenses in these nodes.

Morocco is (apparently) looking to obtain delilah cruise missiles from israel to counter this, unclear when/how these come into operation.

So the time frame needs to be defined, then we can map out the weapons and assets in tiers.

That is always first step in wargaming for me....as this dictates all initiative profile and early contours of most conflicts these days (especially for countries that will rely on tactics more than have the larger long term strategic resources and options). Shock and awe basically and grab land, punish the other punitively and negotiate later with that advantage.

 

[Nilgiri]

Apparently Algeria has iskander ballistic missiles (I didn't know this, just googled). So yeah right now thats a pretty serious advantage over morocco.

 

[Chakib larbi]

Apparently Algeria has iskander ballistic missiles (I didn't know this, just googled). So yeah right now thats a pretty serious advantage over morocco.

and Kaliber/kh-59/kh-35UE/C802A/RBS-15MKIII Cruise missiles + kh-31/YJ-12 supersonic missiles which allow us to deliver the first strike

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

What time frame are we talking about here? Right now or down the road X years later?

Looking at critical weapons tier (and working way downwards)....neither side has ballistic missiles, but Algeria has some cruise missiles.

i.e Algeria holds a serious first strike advantage on opponents critical infra nodes/assets right now (like airbases, harbours, warships etc)....with Kh-31 and YJ-12.

Though we would need some estimate of numbers they have of these systems to gauge overall impact ability....along with what are the moroccan defenses in these nodes.

Morocco is (apparently) looking to obtain delilah cruise missiles from israel to counter this, unclear when/how these come into operation.

So the time frame needs to be defined, then we can map out the weapons and assets in tiers.

That is always first step in wargaming for me....as this dictates all initiative profile and early contours of most conflicts these days (especially for countries that will rely on tactics more than have the larger long term strategic resources and options). Shock and awe basically and grab land, punish the other punitively and negotiate later with that advantage.

We are talking about every order that is confirmed even if not delievered yet. Algeria has iskender ballistic missiles. When it comes to the YJ-.12 i read that it would be difficult for the algerians to use it against because convential coastal radars are only 40-80 km because of earth curvature, and the highest point on the west coast of algeria is 300m.

 

[Nilgiri]

We are talking about every order that is confirmed even if not delievered yet. Algeria has iskender ballistic missiles. When it comes to the YJ-.12 i read that it would be difficult for the algerians to use it against because convential coastal radars are only 40-80 km because of earth curvature, and the highest point on the west coast of algeria is 300m.

Still we would need to know what are the Moroccan AD like around its harbours as this is where crucial ships can be sitting ducks often....and smaller/medium force countries often dont have these assets hedged in multiple bases/harbours etc.

Same to model how Moroccan airbases fare against Kh-31 and iskandar.

Though of course this all also depends on what kind of alert/activity/intel happens and how that ramps up (into extra alertness) preceding the outbreak of actual hostilities.

YJ-12 has decent range (400 km) and you can waypoint program it with its INS etc.

Morocco will have to come up with and implement specific solutions to handle this tier of the conflict (especially worst case scenario where Algeria catches it by surprise).

With more specific knowledge (whatever is open source of course or can be intuited reasonably) at this tier..... we can then get to potentially inputting some scenarios in a software like CMO later (right now there is ongoing CMO effort among bunch of folks I know on both sides for India - Pakistan scenarios)

 

[Chakib larbi]

We are talking about every order that is confirmed even if not delievered yet. Algeria has iskender ballistic missiles. When it comes to the YJ-.12 i read that it would be difficult for the algerians to use it against because convential coastal radars are only 40-80 km because of earth curvature, and the highest point on the west coast of algeria is 300m.

Not a big problem because the Super Lynx ASuW/ASW helicopters and the King Atos MPA planes they can feed the missile with the coordinate of the target until the missile reaches the terminal flight phase and lock on the target with its own seeker