Pakistan Imran Khan Arrested.

Ryder

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Nation state has largely failed in a lot countries because not only you had to unite a country with a single identity its literally impossible when you have numerous groups a lot of them are also competing against each other.

Best example is Nigeria you have Hausa, Yoruba, Igbo and Fulanis all competing over control of the country.

After the end of colonialism you had the question of which ethnic group or tribe collarborated with the European Colonists.

European Colonial Empires also favoured certain groups in certain positions best example is Rwanda.

Turkiye has been largely successful in a way because its the successor of an Empire. Empires tend to take lots of ideas Ottoman Empire was going through its own reforms this made it more suspectible to Western Ideas.

But you got to remember that the Turks also wrestled for control for Anatolia from other ethnic groups.

This continues still as you have Turks vs Kurds.
 

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The Supreme Court of Pakistan has declared Imran's arrest illegal and ordered that he be released immediately.


Meanwhile, the Government has locked horns with the Court:


Things just got way more volatile.
 

Nilgiri

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Some timeline context of the phenomenon I describe.

There is immense trust deficit in Pakistan's politics between military - civilian politician - oligarchs - laypeople/citizenry because of this long term atrophying from the long term system of coercion in operation by the 1st circle of this on the other circles.

 

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One thing is still very unlikely that, Pakistan will disintegrate physically.
Or will it? @Nilgiri
 

Nilgiri

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One thing is still very unlikely that, Pakistan will disintegrate physically.
Or will it? @Nilgiri

Shirvan brings up some good points in the time he has to present it.

But I don't see the country itself disintegrating.

The people occupying the high ground fort (in the power setup) are extremely well seasoned and entrenched there with the nukes in the innermost keep....so there is plenty of scope for them to keep their status quo and let the rest atrophy/suffer to whatever scale given the barricades and weapons they hold relative to the rest.

They have large number of informants placed all over as well to ensure this...to keep intel flow on any other (new + forming) power circles of any potential muster and threat....to prevent anything like revolutions that say happened in France and Russia if you look at the coordination needed by significant elites there (people often assume it was some mass scale peasant uprising, but it really wasn't).

There is lot of room and spectrum for this to happen whether you have say quite a homogeneous population like North Korea or much more diverse population (at various state of civil war/strife internally) like Burma.....with a consolidated regime maintained (though under whichever level of pressure).

Now if the regime itself starts to split and turn against itself (like what happened in the USSR and Nationalist China) for whatever reasons, then its another story...but that is unlikely to happen IMO as Pakistan already fissured (with the associated reduction in ego and inner lessons learned over time) and the regime has adapted and largely accommodated to what overall balance and compromise works for it now with whatever economic pressure comes on the whole.

i.e as one example arrangements/strategy this decade for the more population dense (Indo aryan) areas vs tenuous (Iranic) badlands cleaved roughly by the river itself. It can withdraw more from the latter to the former if need be for example to better retain its inner power sustainability and resilience much like say the Burmese regime does and will do for its foreseeable future.
 

Ryder

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Explains why some Turkish users what to decouple from Pakistan.

Its like being shackled to a dying corpse.

Whats interesting is how Turkiye is actually getting more close to Bangladesh rather than Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to get its act together. Not a attack on Pakistanis in general.
 

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Whats interesting is how Turkiye is actually getting more close to Bangladesh rather than Pakistan.

Obviously good relationship with BD and PAK doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

However, the current state of Pakistan has very little to offer when it comes to trade and economy.

But when it comes to BD, ay least the future of our economy and the potential of growth seems to be considerably less volatile.

From that perspective, it is a relationship worth investing in.
And this is even more true with Indonesia and Malaysia.

Turkish foreign policy and pursuit of national interest in South and East Asia are based on realpolitik except when it comes to Pakistan. ( Which is mostly based on 'brotherhood')
 

Ryder

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Obviously good relationship with BD and PAK doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

However, the current state of Pakistan has very little to offer when it comes to trade and economy.

But when it comes to BD, ay least the future of our economy and the potential of growth seems to be considerably less volatile.

From that perspective, it is a relationship worth investing in.
And this is even more true with Indonesia and Malaysia.

Turkish foreign policy and pursuit of national interest in South and East Asia are based on realpolitik except when it comes to Pakistan. ( Which is mostly based on 'brotherhood')

Religious wise Pakistan is not even united.

Look at many Muslim countries they have a single body of religious authority. Egypt has Al Azhar and Turkiye has Diyanet.

Pakistan has too many religious authorities especially local Mullahs who have power.

A lot of those local mullahs always disregard Pakistan's religious governing body.

In Turkiye you do have local authority but they dont have as much power on anybody apart from their small followers, Ataturk broke it with the Diyanet the Ottomans had the Sheikh Ul Islam to combat any kind of religious locals who think they have authority.

Pakistan needs to centralise its governing bodies especially when it comes to religious issues.

You literally see Mullahs telling their followers to arm up and cause riots.
 

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@Afif

When it comes to tarikats a lot of people critise them from a secular point of view.

I critise them from a Islamic point of view. I see them more as cults really.

Go to every tarikat they will believe they are right and their followers will go to heaven. No such thing really our religion is pretty simple we have the Quran, Sunnah and the Hadith. Doesnt say join a group you will be saved.

They contradict Islam because during the Prophet Muhammeds time there was no tariqas or local groups who gathered for religious purposes.

A lot of these came over time. Tariqas even gave birth to a lot of sects best example are Druze and Alawites.

They love cheating their followers with money. Because you know humans love shortcuts what a better way to get heaven by paying your way to it.
 

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Imran Khan has been released. This is a positive development. I am pleased. I think China and some other states intervened.

There is a thread on the defense.pk forum. "Muslim Pakistan or Islamist Pakistan?" saying. They finally realized that the two are not the same thing! The vast majority of people of Pakistan even do not know that they are not the same thing. There are many problems in Pakistan, each of which is serious enough to destroy the State of Pakistan.

The first problem is the power-hungry and ignorant Mullahs. Under the name of "Jamaat", they run organizations similar to the Assassins that existed in ancient Iran.

The second is that the Pakistan Army takes care of everything else instead of doing its job. From economic activities to involvement in politics.

Pakistan has a very serious internal security problem. Just yesterday, two separate terrorist organizations made a joint raid on the Pakistani army. 19 dead and 40 injured. The funny thing is, one of these organizations is the organization of the Marxist Balochists, while the other is the organization of the Taliban Pashtuns!

Another problem is border disputes that cannot be resolved with their neighbors. They don't even know what birth control means, the population is growing uncontrollably. There is an ingrained corruption in the upper echelons of government. The economy is about to collapse. Etc.

They need a strong leader who is aware of these issues and has popular support, and a security device that is focused solely on doing its job and has its corrupt elements cleaned up. And they have to start from the root of all their problems, namely the ignorant Mullahs.
 
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Ryder

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Imran Khan has been released. This is a positive development. I am pleased. I think China and some other states intervened.

There is a thread on the defense.pk forum. "Muslim Pakistan or Islamist Pakistan?" saying. They finally realized that the two are not the same thing! The vast majority of people of Pakistan even do not know that they are not the same thing. There are many problems in Pakistan, each of which is serious enough to destroy the State of Pakistan.

The first problem is the power-hungry and ignorant Mullahs. Under the name of "Jamaat", they run organizations similar to the Assassins that existed in ancient Iran.

The second is that the Pakistan Army takes care of everything else instead of doing its job. From economic activities to involvement in politics.

Pakistan has a very serious internal security problem. Just yesterday, two separate terrorist organizations made a joint raid on the Pakistani army. 19 dead and 40 injured. The funny thing is, one of these organizations is the organization of the Marxist Balochists, while the other is the organization of the Taliban Pashtuns!

Another problem is border disputes that cannot be resolved with their neighbors. They don't even know what birth control means, the population is growing uncontrollably. There is an ingrained corruption in the upper echelons of government. The economy is about to collapse. Etc.

They need a strong leader who is aware of these issues and has popular support, and a security device that is focused solely on doing its job and has its corrupt elements cleaned up. And they have to start from the root of all their problems, namely the ignorant Mullahs.

Pakistan is a mosaic of diffrrent cultures and the ethnic groups look racially different.

Balochis are more related to Iranic peoples while Pashtuns who live Pakistan more keen to reuniting with Afghanistan run Pashtuns. Islam being the uniting factor made sense but the other other problem they forgot was Tribal identities and languages then the issue of minorities. Not all Pakistanis are Muslim as you have Christians, Hindus and Sikhs.

Pakistan is just broken in every angle.

Up to the Pakistanis to fix the nation.

Muslim rulers in the past had a pragmatic approach when it to came to Hindus and Sikhs. Not to say Muslim rulers were tolerant liberals at least they were pragmatic. Im talking about Turkish/Turkic rulers who ruled what is now Pakistan and India.

You dont see that in Pakistan because the mentality is that this country is fot Muslims alone for them the Hindus and Sikhs have India.

Hindu extremists have this problem when it comes to Muslims in India oh look the Muslims have Pakistan they should go there.

Even the Gulf countries see India morr valuable than Pakistan while Bangladesh is the new rising star.

If this cant wake up Pakistanis to new reality.

They will lose everybody even the support of the Islamic World. Brcause the Islamic brotherhood card is not going to pay off.

Imagine if a Muslim Malaysian goes and invests in Pakistan but will lose it all too instability and corruption.
 
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Nilgiri

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Imran Khan has been released. This is a positive development. I am pleased. I think China and some other states intervened.

Not really. No other country was involved in this.

Imran Khan's handlers (in the military) and the relative sway they have over the SC CJ* (with its limited bench strength deployed for crucial decision for the last few months which is its own topic) were sufficient to gain IK's release though there is now much in flux and he cast the die openly against the new COAS (Munir) as well, which does not bode well for things going forward.

* Bandial, further evidenced by the recent phone call leaks on another related issue

Not to mention the botched nature of the arrest (though not helped by Imran Khan's legal team who for some reason chose not to see it coming either quite incompetently or on purpose) to begin with that made this an easy decision.

This was the precise reason the vast majority of PTI leadership disowned the street protestors/rioters (something the large majority of PDF posters will entirely avoid bringing up....as its inconvenient to their narrative).

Nothing to be pleased about at all tbh. This is all signs of deeper affliction going on and playing out.

IK is just a (impulsive and megalomaniac guided) pawn like rest of the political actors....all are used by factions of the establishment to coerce and air grievance on other parts of the establishment....for power jostling and hedging.....or even ego timepass.

Its a game of charades as establishment knows it gets to sit pretty for most part in end without having to get hands directly dirty on each other.


There is a thread on the defense.pk forum. "Muslim Pakistan or Islamist Pakistan?" saying. They finally realized that the two are not the same thing! The vast majority of people of Pakistan even do not know that they are not the same thing. There are many problems in Pakistan, each of which is serious enough to destroy the State of Pakistan.

The vast majority off posters there, I'm sorry to say, are complete hypocrites on the matter at best and clueless vindictive minded idiots at worst.

They don't realise anything deep down and will turn on a dime in favour of the same military if it intervenes to help whichever partisan political favourite of theirs next time.

Very few call out all sides consistently (on basis of actual underlying principle) in the longer time period like say Vcheng and sparingly few others have done.

The forum is not representative of the Pakistani layperson. It is an elitist clown drama for large part just like what afflicts the country.

This (underlying psychology and hypocrisy) is precisely why the Turk split happened from that forum, and why they scapegoated and permabanned me (well one mod in particular made sure to do so and the others seem to have accepted it or been resigned to it)....as simply put an Indian can never be seen to supporting and standing up for the Turks, somehow upsetting their asserted Turk-Pak bonhomie.

I would lie if I say I do not enjoy his delectable tears now....as much as I sympathise with the regular Pakistani person (sparsely found in such online dystopia fora).

If you have actual Pakistani friends who know things quite deeply, they beat the pants off hours/days/weeks/years of PDF in just one message/convo in under 10 minutes. Actual root of the matter stuff in the end.

I can post excerpts from convo I had with Pakistani friend here on just this current IK issue later if you want it....but it might be boring as it goes into lot of deep details that most foreigners to region wouldn't really know about.


They need a strong leader who is aware of these issues and has popular support, and a security device that is focused solely on doing its job and has its corrupt elements cleaned up. And they have to start from the root of all their problems, namely the ignorant Mullahs.

You maybe don't seem to understand that these "ignorant mullahs" were deliberately spawned, indulged and grown by the military establishment and continue to be used by them (there are dozens and dozens of ABC groups activated and deactivated , split, merged or left to stray around as required).

Why would they abandon what has worked for them so richly so far and at little to no pushback on their ability to do musical chairs with whatever other segments no matter how distasteful they might seem?

You do realise the number of TLP strays found for example among the PTI rioters (and that being the larger reason PTI disassociated from them whenever called out on it)?

Why did I mention the Afghans in my previous post for example too? The PTM clampdown basically forces more TTP....do they (generals) care about it though if you are sitting far enough away from it all? These people care only about power, not costs my man.

Listen my friend. There is a reason why Pakistan's establishment like no other in the world has gone out of its way to develop and sustain an anti-intellectual environment (even with what it has inherited) no matter the cost.

Find me one other country that forces a nobel prize winner in physics into exile (after he literally set up the nuclear program) and when his body returns home to be buried, the grave gets defaced on identity politics of worst kind? Just one other country that does the same is all I need to be wrong.

Intellectuals that care about the greater country represent the greatest threat (given their ability to demonstrably critically think and express on things) to the military establishment in the end (and what raison d'etre they have hemmed themselves into, bunkered and doubled down upon).

Likewise radical apes represent their greatest convenience to indulge, harness and deploy. Blowback appears on their lower rank and file only for most part....and citizens/peasants/plebs dont matter to begin with.
 

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Imran Khan's handlers (in the military) and the relative sway they have over the SC CJ* (with its limited bench strength deployed for crucial decision for the last few months which is its own topic) were sufficient to gain IK's release though there is now much in flux and he cast the die openly against the new COAS (Munir) as well, which does not bode well for things going forward.

* Bandial, further evidenced by the recent phone call leaks on another related issue

Not to mention the botched nature of the arrest (though not helped by Imran Khan's legal team who for some reason chose not to see it coming either quite incompetently or on purpose) to begin with that made this an easy decision.

This was the precise reason the vast majority of PTI leadership disowned the street protestors/rioters (something the large majority of PDF posters will entirely avoid bringing up....as its inconvenient to their narrative).

Nothing to be pleased about at all tbh. This is all signs of deeper affliction going on and playing out.


Its a game of charades as establishment knows it gets to sit pretty for most part in end without having to get hands directly dirty on each other.

You analysis is overly judgmental, it seems.

While it is true that, majority of Pakistani politicians (including PTI members) are easily bought and sold, and almost all of them more or less influenced by various factions of military establishments including including Imran khan himself, but that does not necessarily makes him as useless as this-
IK is just a (impulsive and megalomaniac guided) pawn like rest of the political actors....all are used by factions of the establishment to coerce and air grievance on other parts of the establishment....for power jostling and hedging.....or even ego timepass.
-description would suggest.

Bottom line is, right now Pakistan is a total mess. But no one possibly expect all of it to just go away (on its own) so that everything can have a fresh start. Realistically, if somebody wants any change, he is gonna have to play within current rules first. (No matter how much it sucks, unless you are planning a revolution)

Being a megalomaniac (btw, all politicians are more or less megalomaniac)+being influenced by some faction of military, and wanting a change for better are not by definition mutually exclusive.

Maybe IK is not as useful as I think him to be. But he is the least worst option that Pakistan got for now. Unless, you have a better proposition in mind.
 
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These days Some Pakistanis on social media are comparing current political crisis with 1970 and Imran Khan with Sheikh Mujeeb. Lmao.

Did you guys came across any of it?
@Nilgiri

Some even thinks we actually did a good job by parting from Pakistan.



Also, this short video just came in my box. I liked it.


For those who are interested in past-present of Pakistani politics, I would really recommend this channel.
Well, Modi is no Indira Gandhi. We aren't going to intervene. Let them sort this out themselves. And there is a stark difference. In erstwhile East Pakistan they were conducting a genocide and forcing refugees into India. Here, it seems the Pak people are entering homes of generals.
 

Nilgiri

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You analysis is overly judgmental, it seems.

While it is true that, majority of Pakistani politicians (including PTI members) are easily bought and sold, and almost all of them more or less influenced by various factions of military establishments including including Imran khan himself, but that does not necessarily makes him as useless as this-

-description would suggest.

Bottom line is, right now Pakistan is a total mess. But no one possibly expect all of it to just go away (on its own) so that everything can have a fresh start. Realistically, if somebody wants any change, he is gonna have to play within current rules first. (No matter how much it sucks, unless you are planning a revolution)

Being a megalomaniac (btw, all politicians are more or less megalomaniac)+being influenced by some faction of military, and wanting a change for better are not by definition mutually exclusive.

Maybe IK is not as useful as I think him to be. But he is the least worst option that Pakistan got for now. Unless, you have a better proposition in mind.

I'm simply stating that you need to understand WHY the establishment brought him to power, why they figured it was his time (as long as he played ball) i.e what were their motive/objective in this to begin with (as far as they could see at the time)?...given the (nominal or real) hostility they had to "Taliban Khan" before. Why did IK like all the rest before him acquiesce and benefit initially and why did it all sour later as much as it did?

As to why I dont see anyone really as "least worst option" when the system is heavily rigged against proper leadership + meritorious virtuous institution building, given the ground up approach needed: (from student of aforementioned physics nobel prize winner)

Otherwise IK or anyone else is simply irrelevant given bigger picture of the trust deficit (I mentioned before) bubbling to larger consequences:

“Pakistan has perennially struggled with the twin deficits – a current account and a fiscal deficit,” Ehsan Malik, the CEO of the Pakistan Business Council, a pan-industry advocacy group, said. “They have now been overtaken by a third deficit, which is the trust deficit. The latest developments are a continuation and buildup of this deficit.”

“The IMF [International Monetary Fund] does not trust the current or the previous government,” Malik said, explaining the trust deficit. “Our traditionally friendly countries are shy to come forth with assistance [as Islamabad has not met all IMF bailout conditions]. The politicians don’t trust each other. The judiciary is divided and the government is at loggerheads with [the judiciary’s] decisions.”


I mean its come to the pretty unprecedented stage now where the parliament passes resolution against SC judge:
 

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Honestly, I don't understand the almost deity like status of the Army in Pak. They've lost every war they've fought. They seem more like a business conglomerate which has a security wing than an actual army.
 

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Interior Minister Rana Sanaullah on Tuesday said PTI Chairman Imran Khan will be tried in a military court for the events of May 9 when violence erupted following his arrest and military installations came under attack.

At least eight people were killed, as many as 290 were injured, and over 1,900 enraged protesters were rounded up in running battles with law enforcers across the country on May 9 when an accountability court in Islamabad handed over the custody of Imran to NAB in connection with the Al Qadir Trust case.

The protesters had also stormed the residence of the corps commander in Lahore — also called Jinnah House — and tore down a gate of General Headquarters in Rawalpindi.

The riots had elicited a strong reaction from the government and military with vows of taking action against the culprits, leading to an ongoing crackdown against those involved.

In an appearance on Dawn News show Live with Adil Shahzeb, Sanaullah accused Imran of personally carrying out the planning of the attacks on military installations before his arrest on the day, adding that there was evidence to prove the claim as well.

When asked if Imran would be tried in the military court, Sanaullah said: “Absolutely, why shouldn’t he? The programme that he made to target the military installations and then had it executed, in my understanding absolutely is a case of a military court.”


The interior minister accused the PTI chief of personally orchestrating the May 9 riots. “They (PTI supporters) chanted a slogan that ‘Imran Khan is our red line’, and the planning and preparation were done on Imran Khan’s initiative and instigation.

“He carried it all out. He is the architect of all this discord,” adding that there was evidence present to back the accusation as well.

“[The evidence] is documented, it is in tweets and his messages,” he added.

When asked how Imran was able to communicate with his party leaders even from jail, the interior minister replied: “All this [planning] was decided before he went [to jail] that ‘who will do what and where. And when he is arrested, what would be the strategy and duties’. All of this was decided.”

The interior minister also ruled out talks with the PTI.

Sanaullah’s remarks come a day after Defence Minister Khawaja Asif said that there was no decision yet on Imran’s trial under the Army Act, adding, however, that he could not “rule out” such a possibility.

“I don’t rule out the possibility that he was the planner and knew everything [about May 9],” Asif had said.

Reacting to the interior minister, PTI Secretary General Omar Ayub said his recent “erratic actions and statements” had given rise to “serious questions on his cognitive abilities to carry on as a minister”.

“From holding midnight dubious press conferences to making statements about trying PTI Chairman Imran Khan in a military court, it just proves that he has finally become unhinged and is unfit to perform duties as a minister,” he tweeted.






Imran, aides coordinated efforts to storm military installations: Punjab Police​

The Punjab Police had previously claimed, citing a geo-fencing report, that Imran and his close aides allegedly coordinated efforts to storm the residence of the Lahore corps commander and other buildings

Police had detected over 400 calls made by the PTI chairman and other senior leaders to allegedly incite party workers to move towards the military officer’s residence in Lahore Cantt, and other sensitive public buildings. It was observed that all the rioters were in contact with the PTI top leadership, based in Zaman Park.

Punjab Inspector General of Police Dr Usman Anwar, when contacted by Dawn, had confirmed the geo-fencing record and the alleged use of Imran’s residence for planning the attack on the corps commander’s residence.

A senior officer, requesting anonymity, had told Dawn that many important revelations had come from the analysis of the geo-fencing record: it was detected that 154 calls were allegedly made by Imran Khan to party leaders and rioters to provoke them to attack. He had said the PTI chairman was the “prime suspect” who allegedly planned the attack on the house of the corps commander.

The officer had said call records showed all phone calls were made on May 8 and May 9 — the day of Imran’s arrest — to prepare workers to attack the building. He said as many as a total of 225 callers were reportedly in contact with six PTI leaders; Hammad Azhar, Yasmin Rashid, Mahmoodur Rasheed, Ejaz Chaudhary, Aslam Iqbal, and Murad Ras. They were issuing “particular instructions to the rioters”, he had claimed, adding that Dr Yasmin Rashid received 41 calls from various activists of the party.

Transfer of suspects to military begins following govt’s blessing​

Meanwhile, the government has okayed the use of military courts to try the suspects of the May 9 riots.

On Friday, Sanaullah said that 33 suspects, 19 in Punjab and 14 in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, were handed over to the military.

“Out of the 499 FIRs, there are only six that are being processed — two in Punjab and four in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa — which can possibly be tried in military courts. But an atmosphere is being created as if all are being tried in military courts,” the minister had said.

On Monday, a Rawalpindi anti-terrorism court (ATC) also directed the superintendent of the garrison city’s Adiala Jail to hand over eight suspects to the military for trial.
 

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