India India - China Relations

[Nilgiri]

 

[Paro]

High Altitude Warfare School Full Episodes | Veer by Discovery

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

this is where NATO Sfs train for high altitude warfare.

Watch the whole documentry, Its some crazy stuff @Nilgiri @Zapper @Gautam

 

[Nilgiri]

High Altitude Warfare School Full Episodes | Veer by Discovery

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

this is where NATO Sfs train for high altitude warfare.

Watch the whole documentry, Its some crazy stuff @Nilgiri @Zapper @Gautam

Already did hehe.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Glad to listen to a genuine officer of the old school.

 

[Paro]

Winning: Chinese Fleet Is The Biggest

American intel estimates of Chinese naval power believe the Chinese fleet is now larger than the United States fleet of 293 major warships The US Navy still has a considerable edge in tonnage, manpower, firepower and experience China plans to close a

www.strategypage.com

 

[Paro]

MYTHICAL DRAGON, REAL CHINA - PART 1 By Lt Gen P R Shankar (R)

Gunners Shot

www.gunnersshot.com

MYTHICAL DRAGON, REAL CHINA , PART 2 – STRANGLERS OF CHINA. By Lt Gen P R Shankar (R)

Also published in the Daily Guardian as a three part series &…

www.gunnersshot.com

MYTHICAL DRAGON : REAL PLA By Lt Gen P R Shankar (R)

also published @ EQUIPMENT AND INFRASTRUCTURE GIVES YOU CAPABILITY. PEOPLE GIVE YOU ABILITY. THE MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE ALWAYS MATTERS. In any battle, contest or competition it is impo…

www.gunnersshot.com

@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer
Read the third part closely.

 

[Joe Shearer]

MYTHICAL DRAGON, REAL CHINA - PART 1 By Lt Gen P R Shankar (R)

Gunners Shot

www.gunnersshot.com

MYTHICAL DRAGON, REAL CHINA , PART 2 – STRANGLERS OF CHINA. By Lt Gen P R Shankar (R)

Also published in the Daily Guardian as a three part series &…

www.gunnersshot.com

MYTHICAL DRAGON : REAL PLA By Lt Gen P R Shankar (R)

also published @ EQUIPMENT AND INFRASTRUCTURE GIVES YOU CAPABILITY. PEOPLE GIVE YOU ABILITY. THE MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE ALWAYS MATTERS. In any battle, contest or competition it is impo…

www.gunnersshot.com

@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer
Read the third part closely.

I don't agree 100%, but he has made his point very well.

About the reservations, Vikram Singh wrote at length in his memoirs about the influence of the imports lobby, and the extensive monetisation of the old boy network due to the monies flowing out of favourable imports decisions. Another Army Chief was criticised by his Northern Army commander for getting golf carts for the Chandimandir Golf Course under the heading of earth-moving equipment; the Lt. General was promptly transferred to Central Command, in spite of his formidable knowledge of the Ladakh terrain, built up over decades of service from the level of Brigadier onwards. Central Command itself was immediately on this transfer stripped of all fighting troops. That same Army Chief was found nesting in luxury apartments apparently built for Kargil war veterans. Naval officers in Russia for equipment induction have regularly been honey-trapped. An Air Chief, even as I write this, continues to be under suspension and is under active investigation.

Let us not crow too loudly about the relatively higher corruption in the PLA; we are not snow-white ourselves.

Regarding other issues, it is an open secret that a section of the Army leadership has embraced Hindutva completely. Leave aside that laughable bunny rabbit, Rawat; another general officer delivered a scathing denunciation of the PLA (not the man above), and that was good; he did that sitting at home, in front of a portrait of Savarkar.

 

[Nilgiri]

Read the third part closely.

I would have to overall agree with @Joe Shearer

Our focus must be to treat situation as a worst case scenario for us (within reason of course, no need to overdo it that end too) and rather over-perform by whatever amount should it come to an execution stage....rather than let Chinese weaknesses factor and bake in to too much of our own modus operandi, planning and development for preparedness and deterrence.

This becomes more apparent as China circuits past these issues with bulking up on non-contact warfare and virtual-environment warfare etc....where they need not rely so much on lower order conscript weakness etc.

But let me also add the author though has seen firsthand instances of something I have both seen and studied with large significant segments of Mainland China..w.r.t PLA (and w.r.t CCP but thats another story....for most part I will treat PLA and CCP as unified here).

There is a unique ongoing psychology in action there in many areas....that stem from a course of actions and events, in scales and intensity simply not seen in any other country in the 20th century...with possible argument of exception being the USSR....in any case such things fall upon and linger quite uniquely.

I really don't want to bore you guys and get into darker recesses of my mind too much....but there are certain things you need to know good and wise Chinese people intimately, and be conversant in their tongue... to really understand.

Lot of people for example often assume Tianenmen just happened out of nowhere and it was all solely a natural carryover from the pressure coming onto communism at the time (esp in its largest powerful proponent the USSR).

It is true but only to small degree. There had been previous protests at Tianenmen if one studies the history. But few people ask why seriously enough.

But if you do ask the why to people that saw things first hand and are far enough away in time and space from the perpetrators...yet still remember things....they will bring up their (or ancestor or relative) recollection of say how the PLA was employed within China in ways unthinkable to most societies.

When Mao unleashed the red guard for example to beat China back into utter blind fealty to his cult persona (and exorcise some political opponents conveniently in the rancor).....the PLA ultimately had to be called in to stem the "excesses" of the Red Guard. But lot of people think that all went neatly and simply and can be packaged away.

Few (outside China especially) know the accounts of the pitched brutal battles and massacres that happen on the city streets, town squares but especially the villages and countryside.

Red guard were rarely above 20 years old, so you can imagine the pain of the grown up people seeing effectively their youth having to be dealt with this way (even though earlier such youth were baying and getting their blood too).

This was the same PLA that enforced the great leap foward too on such villagers and town-dwellers just years earlier....taking all their produce away for the greater good and telling them to focus on producing backyard iron that was useless in the end. Some did proceed with fervour at the start (the political capital Mao had from his earlier era was immense and something he quite pitifully and wreckfully squandered)....but in the end the PLA had to be sent to appropriate food from those that were literally starving.

The closest I have ever come to knowing how someone feels about this kind of thing is my friends grandma (still alive in her 90s) living in Toronto...she saw the worst of it in her beloved Ukraine when she was just a girl...food taken away and loved ones wasting away...she only goes so far in explaining, its too painful to remember. But at least there is much more open conversation in the area it happened now about it...there is some redemption in exploring and understanding so it can never happen again. But how did this get addressed in the case of PRC?...one can only really speculate and shudder given Mao is still emblazoned everywhere and judged "more good than bad" at the worst.

You are simply supposed to neatly forget that stuff and preferably not even think of it (or at least outwardly like a good loyal citizen)......just enjoy the new skyscrapers and highways and high speed rail...forget the darkness...and dont question if it still might be there lurking. All this from a regime that then proceeds to harness and claim continued socialised perfectly transmitted heritage from 100s and even thousands years ago....but then gaslights you to do away with these far more recent and real life events and memories....that you totally should not let linger in any way.

The other closest source I have is my childood friends mother. Half of her extended family stayed back in mainland, when she (with her mom, and a few brothers) moved to Hong Kong right after the communists took over the mainland. During worst of cultural revolution, you need to be Hong Konger at that time to know the bodies that piled up in HK beaches from the pearl river. This is all small small introduction to why there exists a deep divide between HK (even youngsters that have parents and grandparents with memories you know) and PRC....it is not really well explained in words, much less in English.

So these are the kind of people (if you can imagine them within PRC), if they survived, produced children later that become the next generation for PLA to recruit from. Was all the memory and pain to be neatly packaged away and forgotten and a smile put on face?

That much gaslighting has its effect a long time on psychology. There is reason why it is simply not a suitable topic for conversation (forget introspection) in PRC at all.

There is now a complete void in certain things in PRC that nearly every other country take for granted. Of course you will find it in the PLA too, they were part of all of it. This will all come to bite them and badly eventually....such things dont neatly and squarely go away without consequence.

This is why I dont believe in forced collectivism. You must build up the individual at the individual level. It is frankly imperative....otherwise you leave a huge part of humanity in the dust for some immediate ideological obsession...and that will come to haunt you later.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would have to overall agree with @Joe Shearer

Our focus must be to treat situation as a worst case scenario for us (within reason of course, no need to overdo it that end too) and rather over-perform by whatever amount should it come to an execution stage....rather than let Chinese weaknesses factor and bake in to too much of our own modus operandi, planning and development for preparedness and deterrence.

This becomes more apparent as China circuits past these issues with bulking up on non-contact warfare and virtual-environment warfare etc....where they need not rely so much on lower order conscript weakness etc.

But let me also add the author though has seen firsthand instances of something I have both seen and studied with large significant segments of Mainland China..w.r.t PLA (and w.r.t CCP but thats another story....for most part I will treat PLA and CCP as unified here).

There is a unique ongoing psychology in action there in many areas....that stem from a course of actions and events, in scales and intensity simply not seen in any other country in the 20th century...with possible argument of exception being the USSR....in any case such things fall upon and linger quite uniquely.

I really don't want to bore you guys and get into darker recesses of my mind too much....but there are certain things you need to know good and wise Chinese people intimately, and be conversant in their tongue... to really understand.

Lot of people for example often assume Tianenmen just happened out of nowhere and it was all solely a natural carryover from the pressure coming onto communism at the time (esp in its largest powerful proponent the USSR).

It is true but only to small degree. There had been previous protests at Tianenmen if one studies the history. But few people ask why seriously enough.

But if you do ask the why to people that saw things first hand and are far enough away in time and space from the perpetrators...yet still remember things....they will bring up their (or ancestor or relative) recollection of say how the PLA was employed within China in ways unthinkable to most societies.

When Mao unleashed the red guard for example to beat China back into utter blind fealty to his cult persona (and exorcise some political opponents conveniently in the rancor).....the PLA ultimately had to be called in to stem the "excesses" of the Red Guard. But lot of people think that all went neatly and simply and can be packaged away.

Few (outside China especially) know the accounts of the pitched brutal battles and massacres that happen on the city streets, town squares but especially the villages and countryside.

Red guard were rarely above 20 years old, so you can imagine the pain of the grown up people seeing effectively their youth having to be dealt with this way (even though earlier such youth were baying and getting their blood too).

This was the same PLA that enforced the great leap foward too on such villagers and town-dwellers just years earlier....taking all their produce away for the greater good and telling them to focus on producing backyard iron that was useless in the end. Some did proceed with fervour at the start (the political capital Mao had from his earlier era was immense and something he quite pitifully and wreckfully squandered)....but in the end the PLA had to be sent to appropriate food from those that were literally starving.

The closest I have ever come to knowing how someone feels about this kind of thing is my friends grandma (still alive in her 90s) living in Toronto...she saw the worst of it in her beloved Ukraine when she was just a girl...food taken away and loved ones wasting away...she only goes so far in explaining, its too painful to remember. But at least there is much more open conversation in the area it happened now about it...there is some redemption in exploring and understanding so it can never happen again. But how did this get addressed in the case of PRC?...one can only really speculate and shudder given Mao is still emblazoned everywhere and judged "more good than bad" at the worst.

You are simply supposed to neatly forget that stuff and preferably not even think of it (or at least outwardly like a good loyal citizen)......just enjoy the new skyscrapers and highways and high speed rail...forget the darkness...and dont question if it still might be there lurking. All this from a regime that then proceeds to harness and claim continued socialised perfectly transmitted heritage from 100s and even thousands years ago....but then gaslights you to do away with these far more recent and real life events and memories....that you totally should not let linger in any way.

The other closest source I have is my childood friends mother. Half of her extended family stayed back in mainland, when she (with her mom, and a few brothers) moved to Hong Kong right after the communists took over the mainland. During worst of cultural revolution, you need to be Hong Konger at that time to know the bodies that piled up in HK beaches from the pearl river. This is all small small introduction to why there exists a deep divide between HK (even youngsters that have parents and grandparents with memories you know) and PRC....it is not really well explained in words, much less in English.

So these are the kind of people (if you can imagine them within PRC), if they survived, produced children later that become the next generation for PLA to recruit from. Was all the memory and pain to be neatly packaged away and forgotten and a smile put on face?

That much gaslighting has its effect a long time on psychology. There is reason why it is simply not a suitable topic for conversation (forget introspection) in PRC at all.

There is now a complete void in certain things in PRC that nearly every other country take for granted. Of course you will find it in the PLA too, they were part of all of it. This will all come to bite them and badly eventually....such things dont neatly and squarely go away without consequence.

This is why I dont believe in forced collectivism. You must build up the individual at the individual level. It is frankly imperative....otherwise you leave a huge part of humanity in the dust for some immediate ideological obsession...and that will come to haunt you later.

This might be the finest piece of yours that I have read.

I wish you could write a weekly blog taking us through Chinese history from 1949 onwards; nothing like a day journal, just your point of view of events that occurred.

I wish you would concentrate on this area of deep insight, and abandon so many other blind allies that you had gone into in the past.

Most of all, I wish I had written this.

 

[Nilgiri]

This might be the finest piece of yours that I have read.

Thank you, it means a lot given all that you have written and I have much enjoyed reading immensely.

I wish you could write a weekly blog taking us through Chinese history from 1949 onwards; nothing like a day journal, just your point of view of events that occurred.

That's an interesting idea, I will get on this promptly. I will have to organise things first, they are a bit scatter brained on this subject somewhat.

Also I would have to start with Sun-Yat-Sen rather than 1949 to really give the proper context and grounding, as so much that happened w.r.t the communists trace back to that initial revolution.

This would also give me opportunity to bring in the role of Imperial Japan in all of this.

They inflicted immense damage of all kinds upon China and were quite instrumental in setting the ground for Mao defeating CKS on the mainland...and that political capital and trust he inherited that is really incomparable in the modern era. Japan's role cannot be overstated.

I wish you would concentrate on this area of deep insight, and abandon so many other blind allies that you had gone into in the past.

Oh mother.....tell your children....not to do what I have done....

Spend your lives in sin and misery....in the house of the rising sun....


I have left it all behind now Joe, don't worry. This place is home now for me, and I have the scars, wisdom and 20/20 hindsight on what the mismatch is from he real world and the internet when it tries to come to forming productive conversations and understanding. I was likely after something else before, life being more hectic for me back then too.... that thirst has all long been quenched and then some.

Most of all, I wish I had written this.

A lot of why I came to such fora in first place was to develop my writing a bit more (outside the technical realm).

I lost practice and passion for that during university much to my english teacher's chagrin (last one I had in high school that kept in touch).

The two ladies I speak of in my earlier post....they truly have some deep stories that I hope to fully document and publish properly. They are likely the most remarkable and stoic women I have ever met...given what they saw and had to endure...yet made a positive productive life after it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Also I would have to start with Sun-Yat-Sen rather than 1949 to really give the proper context and grounding, as so much that happened w.r.t the communists trace back to that initial revolution.

Point well made.

On a diverging note, much of India-China discussion started, in real terms, from that period or immediately before.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This would also give me opportunity to bring in the role of Imperial Japan in all of this.

It is really strange, really, really strange that you should mention this. On another forum (not PDF), the person you might have noticed who calls himself <SoulSpokesman> asked a question that erupted into a full-blown discussion very soon, about the differences between WWI and WWII. Somebody tried to make the point (fair in itself) that the period between the wars was engaged in many small wars, and so, in his opinion, there was in fact no let-up; WWI seagued into WWII, without anyone quite noticing.

The point of bringing that up here was that it dovetails with my view, which I shared, about the smooth and seamless flow of history. What we saw in the case of Europe, where the conflict between Germany and France that existed went back in time to the clash between the Romans, after their conquest of Gaul, and the tribes of Germania.

The conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union, as it then was, may be seen to have started with Charlemagne's clashes with the Saxons. That injected a major religious element into European affairs, as the great Emperor forced the Saxons into Christianity, a theme that in due course became native to the Germans, and, in the persons of the order of the Teutonic Knights, and their secular comrades, was the driving force pushing them into an eastward movement, some eight centuries before the Drang nach Osten.

So your reference to beginning with Sun Yat-Sen made complete sense. What is happening in and around China had many historical roots; there was the Yuan invasion of Japan, and Japan's stung response to that, eliciting a military drive that overshadowed the deep, underlying cultural exchange. There was the Mongolian invasion itself; or the Manchus, later, and the deep-rooted Chinese insecurity that built the Great Wall, or that converted the outlying Gansu and Qing Hai and Inner Mongolia into integral provinces of China, from their tribal ancestry.

Please tag me on your posts.

 

[Nilgiri]

It is really strange, really, really strange that you should mention this. On another forum (not PDF), the person you might have noticed who calls himself <SoulSpokesman> asked a question that erupted into a full-blown discussion very soon, about the differences between WWI and WWII. Somebody tried to make the point (fair in itself) that the period between the wars was engaged in many small wars, and so, in his opinion, there was in fact no let-up; WWI seagued into WWII, without anyone quite noticing.

The point of bringing that up here was that it dovetails with my view, which I shared, about the smooth and seamless flow of history. What we saw in the case of Europe, where the conflict between Germany and France that existed went back in time to the clash between the Romans, after their conquest of Gaul, and the tribes of Germania.

The conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union, as it then was, may be seen to have started with Charlemagne's clashes with the Saxons. That injected a major religious element into European affairs, as the great Emperor forced the Saxons into Christianity, a theme that in due course became native to the Germans, and, in the persons of the order of the Teutonic Knights, and their secular comrades, was the driving force pushing them into an eastward movement, some eight centuries before the Drang nach Osten.

So your reference to beginning with Sun Yat-Sen made complete sense. What is happening in and around China had many historical roots; there was the Yuan invasion of Japan, and Japan's stung response to that, eliciting a military drive that overshadowed the deep, underlying cultural exchange. There was the Mongolian invasion itself; or the Manchus, later, and the deep-rooted Chinese insecurity that built the Great Wall, or that converted the outlying Gansu and Qing Hai and Inner Mongolia into integral provinces of China, from their tribal ancestry.

Please tag me on your posts.

Yes I will address a lot of this (w.r.t China). I will spend sufficient time and thought to present what I know (with personal perspective too) as best I can. In general when it comes to history you are very correct, there is a huge amount of lingering current from what I call historical psychology.

We will continue this discussion in the preliminary thread (where I outline my project and open for initial responses/suggestions) I will open in a few moments.

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Paro]

I miss skydiving

 

[ekemenirtu]

Has this conflict started yet?

I am yet to see any major violence or casualties from either side.

And I doubt it will ever develop into a full blown conflict.

Simply put, China has no means of defeating India despite all the bluster and bravado.

And likewise, India can do very little to China.

The entire sequence of events seems to be quite meaningless. Maybe I am not intricately familiar with the particulars of the conflict. I'll be eager to listen to members' views then.

 

[Nilgiri]

I missing skydiving

They used inverted commas lmao.

 

[Nilgiri]

Has this conflict started yet?

I am yet to see any major violence or casualties from either side.

And I doubt it will ever develop into a full blown conflict.

Simply put, China has no means of defeating India despite all the bluster and bravado.

And likewise, India can do very little to China.

The entire sequence of events seems to be quite meaningless. Maybe I am not intricately familiar with the particulars of the conflict. I'll be eager to listen to members' views then.

There is only so much window for large countries to "get at" each other on something....given the fears of escalation and what that would involve.

But there is somewhat an intense localisation in this area that definitely has potential to get quite active. Right now the looming season (approaching winter and winter) is not conducive to it, lets see how it goes next year.

The series of incidents happened (largely unparalleled to anything before for many decades) and both sides have amassed forces. That in itself is a big change in the prevailing situation than before, but of course it need not be a domino falling situation (w.r.t speed of events) like most may have gotten by how easily that can be done in media/discourse etc.

 

[Ryder]

There is only so much window for large countries to "get at" each other on something....given the fears of escalation and what that would involve.

But there is somewhat an intense localisation in this area that definitely has potential to get quite active. Right now the looming season (approaching winter and winter) is not conducive to it, lets see how it goes next year.

The series of incidents happened (largely unparalleled to anything before for many decades) and both sides have amassed forces. That in itself is a big change in the prevailing situation than before, but of course it need not be a domino falling situation (w.r.t speed of events) like most may have gotten by how easily that can be done in media/discourse etc.

Have any chinese casualties been revealed yet??

It seems the Chinese are dodging such a question.

 

[Nilgiri]

Have any chinese casualties been revealed yet??

It seems the Chinese are dodging such a question.

Nope nothing official released. They are probably going to sit on it like they did (at much larger scale) with Vietnam border conflicts from the 70s to early 90s there.