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Nilgiri

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NEW DELHI: It has been a strategic partnership that has grown in strength with every passing year. Built on the rich legacy and preparation for future the India-Russia strategic partnership is truly strategic in nature with a strong component of Make in India and joint ventures. In the words of one of the senior politicians of India Indo-Soviet and India-Russia partnership has the only constant factor in an otherwise volatile world – a time-tested partnership that in many senses has weathered many a geo-political storm through the decades.

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Nilgiri

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Are things as bad as the article says they are? What have members heard about this?

It is high time (imo) that India isolates+atrophies the natasha lobby embedded in south block babusphere. Russia is inertia-driven relationship, its not aligning with our interests geopolitically increasingly so we need figure out a better strategy going forward, pragmatic to our needs, but cognisant to our developed capability (esp in private sector) too.

But huge part of it is the terrible approach in concocting the planning, procedures, tenders and objectives for such basic things in the first place. Several rears need kicking long time ago...but self-serving bureaucracy promotes more self-serving bureaucracy...making the whole thing as long winded and complicated as possible. Awful.

@Zapper @Milspec @Paro


Chandigarh: India’s two much-hyped joint ventures (JVs) with Russia to licence-build assault rifles and light utility helicopters (LUH) are floundering over costs, flawed planning and overreach on achieving atmanirbharta or domestic self-sufficiency in the military sector.

Industry officials said the collaborative Indo-Russian Private Limited (IRPL) to supply India’s military 750,000 Kalashnikov Ak-203 rifles and India-Russia Helicopters (IRHL) established to deliver 200 Kamov Ka-226T ‘Hoodlum’ LUHs to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) stand jeopardised for broadly analogous reasons.

Both the rifles and the LUHs are badly-needed to fill operational voids, presently being managed either through emergency imports, or via creative jugaad or innovation, at a time when all three services, especially the Indian Army, faces enduring challenges in a volatile neighbourhood. The requirement for LUHs is even more dire, as they are badly-needed to replace the IAF’s and the AACs obsolete and accident-prone licence-built Chetak (Aerospatiale Alouette III) and Cheetah (Aerospatiale SA-315B) helicopters dating back to the mid-1960s.

“The responsibility for these continuing setbacks lies equally with the services for their flawed planning and the Ministry of Defence (MoD) for its rigid and byzantine procedures that few can comprehend and even fewer implement” admitted a former defence ministry official. Instead of following a practical and realistic approach to military capability development, the services and the MoD are forever engaged in a tussle that obviates its attainment he added, declining to be identified as he was fearful of repercussions, despite having retired.

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Paro

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Dont know about the AK deal but LUH is deliberately being delayed as the services aren’t interested in it. It was pushed down their throats during a summit and they are doing everything they can to avoid it from moving forward. HAL is buying time to increase its ordered of LUH.
 

Zapper

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Dont know about the AK deal but LUH is deliberately being delayed as the services aren’t interested in it. It was pushed down their throats during a summit and they are doing everything they can to avoid it from moving forward. HAL is buying time to increase its ordered of LUH.
Any credible source for that info? I spoke to my IA buddy regarding this who is current a Rudra pilot for AAC. Per his colleagues who flew the LCH & LUH, both happened to be on par and better in several aspects over the Dhruv/Rudra
 

Zapper

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Are things as bad as the article says they are? What have members heard about this?

It is high time (imo) that India isolates+atrophies the natasha lobby embedded in south block babusphere. Russia is inertia-driven relationship, its not aligning with our interests geopolitically increasingly so we need figure out a better strategy going forward, pragmatic to our needs, but cognisant to our developed capability (esp in private sector) too.

But huge part of it is the terrible approach in concocting the planning, procedures, tenders and objectives for such basic things in the first place. Several rears need kicking long time ago...but self-serving bureaucracy promotes more self-serving bureaucracy...making the whole thing as long winded and complicated as possible. Awful.
Apart for the cost disparity mentioned in both deals, the AK-203 variant IA opted for isn't actually an AK-203 but is a hybrid of AK-103 & 203. There are much better assault rifles using NATO rounds we can scout for and I'm sure those companies would be willing to offer localized production at similar, if not better costs

The Ka-226 is definitely a great modular platform but DRDO/HAL's rotary wing department has been one of their best. We could follow the same route as LCA, outsource most components and assemblies to private Indian firms while HAL will only be the final integrator. As long as we don't support indigenous platforms, our defence industry will never take off but what's important is there should be extensive participation of the private industry
 

Zapper

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Imo we should scrap ak-203 deal and go for SSS defence
I'm all in for the AK-203 deal to be scrapped but SSS P-72 rifle is unproven and I don't think any of the forces tested it either. NSG & Para-SF were seen testing their Viper and Saber sniper rifles pre-pandemic but there were no reports after that. If either of the special forces opt for it, there's a high chance paramilitary units would also go for em which gives SSS the opportunity to pitch in their P-72 AR & Carbine to IA
 
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Paro

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Any credible source for that info? I spoke to my IA buddy regarding this who is current a Rudra pilot for AAC. Per his colleagues who flew the LCH & LUH, both happened to be on par and better in several aspects over the Dhruv/Rudra
I have more or less the same info you're talking about, word of mouth. And I think you got me wrong, when I said the services don't seem to be interested in LUH I meant the joint venture for Kamov KA226t's not Dhruv's small brother. They seem to actually want to go with the small brother.
 

Zapper

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I have more or less the same info you're talking about, word of mouth. And I think you got me wrong, when I said the services don't seem to be interested in LUH I meant the joint venture for Kamov KA226t's not Dhruv's small brother. They seem to actually want to go with the small brother.
Yeah, my bad...I actually thought you were referring to HAL's LUH
 

Raptor

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I'm all in for the AK-203 deal to be scrapped but SSS P-72 rifle is unproven and I don't think any of the forces tested it either. NSG & Para-SF were seen testing their Viper and Saber sniper rifles pre-pandemic but there were no reports after that. If either of the special forces opt for it, there's a high chance paramilitary units would also go for em which gives SSS the opportunity to pitch in their P-72 AR & Carbine to IA
 

Zapper

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That's not their P-72 series rifle for which they hold the IP

The rifle being tested is an AK with SOPMOD upgrades done by SSS. SOPMOD kits aren't needed for regular troops. I'm sure the newly formed AFSOD will be allowed to have SOPMOD kits for all their operators since the creme de la creme of Para SF, MARCOS and Garuds will be selected into AFSOD
 
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Raptor

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That's not their P-72 series rifle for which they hold the IP

The rifle being tested is an AK with SOPMOD upgrades done by SSS. SOPMOD kits aren't needed for regular troops. I'm sure the newly formed AFSOD will be allowed to have SOPMOD kits for all their operators since the creme de la creme of Para SF, MARCOS and Garuds will be selected into AFSOD
How does this compare with ak-203?
 

Zapper

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How does this compare with ak-203?
Compare the P72 or SOPMOD AKM?

If you intend to compare SSS's P-72, we don't have any info yet other than the rifle using 7.62 NATO rounds and is probably designed by consultants from LMT Defense while SSS holds the IP. This isn't surprising since UAE's Caracal also has most of it's rifles designed by western consultants

SOPMOD AKs can't be compared to a stock AK since SOPMOD is specific additions and enhancements to an existing rifle to optimize the usage and performance. US SOF units get access to a range of accessories to customize their rifles

1608529984089.png


RR and even some Para SF units use Fab Defense upgraded Romanian AK-47s and Bulgarian AKMs



1608530144871.png
 
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Nilgiri

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NEW DELHI: Undeterred by the threat of US sanctions, India is going full steam ahead with its induction plan for the advanced S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile systems from Russia. Ahead of the deliveries beginning in September-October, a large IAF team will be leaving for Russia later this month.
All five mobile squadrons of the S-400 air defence systems, under the $5.43 billion (Rs 40,000 crore) contract inked with Russia in October 2018, will be progressively delivered by April 2023.

The highly-automated S-400s, which can detect, track and destroy hostile strategic bombers, jets, spy planes, missiles and drones at a range of 380 km, will be “suitably positioned in the western, northern and eastern sectors” to cater for threats from both China and Pakistan, defence ministry sources said.

An initial team of almost 100 officers and airmen will leave for Russia in the last week of January for training in operations and maintenance of the “massive” S-400 systems. “A second IAF team will follow after a few months. With the deliveries beginning this September-October, the first S-400 squadron should become operational by end-2021 or early-2022,” a source said on Sunday.

The S-400, which will “revolutionise India’s air defence capabilities”, will have missiles with interception ranges of 120, 200, 250 and 380 km as well as battle-management systems of command posts and launchers, long-range acquisition and engagement radars, and all-terrain transporter-erector vehicles.

With 128 missiles in each battery, the S-400 system automatically picks up the “most suited” one to launch at an incoming aerial threat. Its radars, with the primary acquisition one with a 600-km range, can track hundreds of targets simultaneously.

Russia claims the S-400 can even intercept ballistic missiles with velocity of 4,800 metres per second as well as “radar lock and shoot down” fifth generation stealth fighters like the American F-35 Lightning-II jets.

India has already paid a “substantial advance” in the $5.43 billion contract to Russia, with the rest of the instalments being linked to deliveries, after working out a payment mechanism to get around the US sanctions regime, as was earlier reported by TOI. India remains “very hopeful” it will get a “national security waiver” by the incoming Biden administration from the US law CAATSA, which was enacted in 2017 to prevent countries from buying Russian weapons or Iranian oil.

The US has imposed financial sanctions on China and Turkey for inducting the S-400 systems from Russia. India had earlier mounted a major diplomatic-military campaign to convince the Trump administration, stressing the S-400 acquisition was a “urgent national security requirement” for it.
 

Topan

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NEW DELHI: Undeterred by the threat of US sanctions, India is going full steam ahead with its induction plan for the advanced S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile systems from Russia. Ahead of the deliveries beginning in September-October, a large IAF team will be leaving for Russia later this month.
All five mobile squadrons of the S-400 air defence systems, under the $5.43 billion (Rs 40,000 crore) contract inked with Russia in October 2018, will be progressively delivered by April 2023.

The highly-automated S-400s, which can detect, track and destroy hostile strategic bombers, jets, spy planes, missiles and drones at a range of 380 km, will be “suitably positioned in the western, northern and eastern sectors” to cater for threats from both China and Pakistan, defence ministry sources said.

An initial team of almost 100 officers and airmen will leave for Russia in the last week of January for training in operations and maintenance of the “massive” S-400 systems. “A second IAF team will follow after a few months. With the deliveries beginning this September-October, the first S-400 squadron should become operational by end-2021 or early-2022,” a source said on Sunday.

The S-400, which will “revolutionise India’s air defence capabilities”, will have missiles with interception ranges of 120, 200, 250 and 380 km as well as battle-management systems of command posts and launchers, long-range acquisition and engagement radars, and all-terrain transporter-erector vehicles.

With 128 missiles in each battery, the S-400 system automatically picks up the “most suited” one to launch at an incoming aerial threat. Its radars, with the primary acquisition one with a 600-km range, can track hundreds of targets simultaneously.

Russia claims the S-400 can even intercept ballistic missiles with velocity of 4,800 metres per second as well as “radar lock and shoot down” fifth generation stealth fighters like the American F-35 Lightning-II jets.

India has already paid a “substantial advance” in the $5.43 billion contract to Russia, with the rest of the instalments being linked to deliveries, after working out a payment mechanism to get around the US sanctions regime, as was earlier reported by TOI. India remains “very hopeful” it will get a “national security waiver” by the incoming Biden administration from the US law CAATSA, which was enacted in 2017 to prevent countries from buying Russian weapons or Iranian oil.

The US has imposed financial sanctions on China and Turkey for inducting the S-400 systems from Russia. India had earlier mounted a major diplomatic-military campaign to convince the Trump administration, stressing the S-400 acquisition was a “urgent national security requirement” for it.
Why not buy patriot or eurosam?
 

Nilgiri

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Why not buy patriot or eurosam?

Indian defence establishment still operates on inertia of "strategic balance".

Also they don't want to have Russia cosy up with China more than they already have so far...and have that bear down on India in various arenas...for however long that can be held off this way i.e buying some more time....till China and Russia themselves start to get into more inevitable uncomfortable relationship downstream.

S-400 is probably only avenue left for India to do this sizeably, as other strategic and even regular acquisitions (sourced from Russia) are slowing and drying up as western and indigenous systems quality/pricepoint and competitiveness improves further compared to Russia where lot of things are stagnant (esp when factoring in long term cost) on that.
 

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India is an independant country it can buy whatever it wants for the defence of its own nation.

Usa has no right to dictate on what a country wants to buy.
 
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Raptor

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Their loss if they put sanctions on India,not ours
 

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