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Jackdaws

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Interesting. Is it a game changer?

I mean does it match something the Chinese already have? Or does it give us any kind of advantage?
 

crixus

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Interesting. Is it a game changer?

I mean does it match something the Chinese already have? Or does it give us any kind of advantage?
I think they have S-400 only , and I am not sure how India will use but it will defenite increase the cost of any Chinese mis adventure
 

Hasan

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What about the US sanction risk? Can anyone shed some light on it please?
 

Nilgiri

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@Nilgiri your views regarding barak8 and S-400 AD on LAC , with gaps covered by Akash and Akash NG

Interesting. Is it a game changer?

I mean does it match something the Chinese already have? Or does it give us any kind of advantage?

It is able to track a large number of targets very well at many distances.

It is very modular and well networked (making it resilient to SEAD)

Very fast deployment/reaction time.

Mobile launchers with up to 400 km range missiles = potency against AWACS, ISTAR, ELINT and refuellers of the enemy (that sit further back in airspace and are high value assets)

Missile types:
40 km-range 9M96
150 km-range 9M96E2
200-250 km-range 48N6
400 km-range 40N6.


Each one has a specific optimal kill envelope....greatly increasing the system's overall capability.
These can all be layered within a battalion.

Has some measure of solid capability against 5th gen jets given its networking and processing available.

Will form a solid part of layered air defence of India.
 

Nilgiri

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What about the US sanction risk? Can anyone shed some light on it please?

US is working on a waiver (in its legislature) for India currently (whole thread might be useful read):


The Sanction risk persists till that is completed.

If the sanctions come, it will be a blow to Quad.

If US legislature sees value in greater Indian strategic partnership, the Quad will strengthen.

It is up to them, the S-400 is coming to India regardless of their decision.
 

crixus

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It is able to track a large number of targets very well at many distances.

It is very modular and well networked (making it resilient to SEAD)

Very fast deployment/reaction time.

Mobile launchers with up to 400 km range missiles = potency against AWACS, ISTAR, ELINT and refuellers of the enemy (that sit further back in airspace and are high value assets)

Missile types:
40 km-range 9M96
150 km-range 9M96E2
200-250 km-range 48N6
400 km-range 40N6.


Each one has a specific optimal kill envelope....greatly increasing the system's overall capability.
These can all be layered within a battalion.

Has some measure of solid capability against 5th gen jets given its networking and processing available.

Will form a solid part of layered air defence of India.
I still feel , We use Vl SAM for less then 20km range , from 40km to 70 Akash missile should be used ,from 70km to 150km umberella we should use barak 8 and barak 8 ER . They have shown their capability to shoot ballistic missile during Azri and Armenia conflict. S-400 should cover from 250 km to 400km range
 

Nilgiri

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I still feel , We use Vl SAM for less then 20km range , from 40km to 70 Akash missile should be used ,from 70km to 150km umberella we should use barak 8 and barak 8 ER . They have shown their capability to shoot ballistic missile during Azri and Armenia conflict. S-400 should cover from 250 km to 400km range

It is up to the client as to how the networking is done (especially in protecting the system itself i.e anti-SEAD).

There is benefit to double layering, if the response time of system A is preserved by keeping things preserved in the architecture for itself....rather than trying to get system B talk to it and process with it.

These kind of things are what India will have to research more and optimise more with time. It requires lot of field deployment and testing that cannot be simulated so well.
 

crixus

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What about the US sanction risk? Can anyone shed some light on it please?
If US sanctions India , eventually it will be their loss . India has time and again proved we have our own foreign policy which only focus on India's interests
 

crixus

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It is up to the client as to how the networking is done (especially in protecting the system itself i.e anti-SEAD).

There is benefit to double layering, if the response time of system A is preserved by keeping things preserved in the architecture for itself....rather than trying to get system B talk to it and process with it.

These kind of things are what India will have to research more and optimise more with time. It requires lot of field deployment and testing that cannot be simulated so well.
I think in India's case its of utmost imortantance to have robust network between the system with different origins . You are the Nagarno Karabach has already proved how vulnerable these AD assets in front of Hrapy like suicide drones .

I am sure they are already studying the Naharno karabagh war and making relevant SOPs , to avoid such situations

Check Israel is providing such solutions :

 
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Nilgiri

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I think in India's case its of utmost imortantance to have robust network between the system with different origins . You are the Nagarno Karabach has already proved how vulnerable these AD assets in front of Hrapy like suicide drones .

I am sure they are already studying the Naharno karabagh war and making relevant SOPs , to avoid such situations

Check Israel is providing such solutions :


Interoperability in C4I domain is something India is in early phases of and evolving still.

It is easier said than done to say "robust network is important".

India will need to evolve a robust multi-tiered architecture itself....it is question of strategic funding and commitment, if you look up US DOD white papers on the subject since the 90s when this domain (tiers w.r.t real time and non-real time....legacy vs current vs future, COTS vs loca and multitudes of other challenges in defence system architecture).... first really established itself.

It is not easy to make systems integrate seamlessly and securely....workarounds and compromises are often part of the interim.

Mix of Israeli, local and Russian SAM systems will be part of this baked in for India.

This is also part of the extra costs we see when acquiring US or Israeli drones....as there is proprietary system architecture that India is accessing + absorbing for first time (that the provider knows India will do and hence includes in the price, since it is on the table effectively).

Indian scope for air defence is far far different to that found in N-K war. For one, the raw distances + power level intensities are completely different. Neither combatant in that war had a strategic architecture (along with strategic depth) of scale to it either. Some very general lessons are relevant, thats about it.

It is better for India to study what its adversaries have, acquire and develop (in present and future) specifically and plan things that way. But that is mostly different subject to core architecture design of C4I which is a prerogative by itself. You do that, and the dividends come naturally with time on future acquisitions in the tiers relevant to those parts.
 

Zapper

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In this Tuesday, Aug. 27, 2019 file photo, a truck carrying parts of the S-400 air defense systems, exits a Russian transport aircraft after landing at Murted military airport outside Ankara, Turkey. - Sputnik International, 1920, 14.11.2021

© AP Photo / Turkish Defence Ministry
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DUBAI (Sputnik) - Russia has started delivering the S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile systems to India, the deliveries are going as planned, Director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) Dmitry Shugaev told Sputnik ahead of the Dubai Airshow.
"The supplies of the S-400 air defense system to India have started and are proceeding on schedule," Shugaev said.
The S-400 has already entered service in China and Turkey. Russia and India signed a contract on the delivery of S-400s in October 2018.
In August, the head of Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, told Sputnik that negotiations on the supply of S-400 air defense systems were underway with seven countries in the Middle East, the Asia-Pacific region and Africa.

https://sputniknews.com/20211114/ru...systems-to-india---government-1090716919.html
 

Zapper

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I think they have S-400 only , and I am not sure how India will use but it will defenite increase the cost of any Chinese mis adventure
The chinese procured S-400 primarily for 2 reasons. One being to reverse engineer and develop their HQ air defence lineup and the other is to study gaps/loopholes since they know we're procuring it too. They infact received it sooner than us and I wouldn't be surprised if they already made some inroads and shared the same with pakistanians
 

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Sanctions on Russia: Exporters to urge govt to weigh alternative payment modes​

India mostly buys petroleum products, diamonds and other precious stones and fertilisers from Russia.​

Written by Banikinkar Pattanayak
February 24, 2022 1:45:00 am

rupee-rial mechanism
Under the rupee-rial mechanism, Indian refiners used to import crude oil from Iran and make payments to the designated rupee-account at Uco Bank and IDBI Bank.
Amid growing fears of mounting western sanctions on Russia in the wake of the Ukraine crisis, jittery Indian exporters are planning to approach the government to put in place a mechanism to ensure their payments are not stuck even if more sanctions are imposed on Moscow.
The mechanism can be modelled on the rupee-rial architecture that was used to clear payments to domestic firms when the US had slapped sanctions on Iran, sources at two state-backed export promotion councils told FE. Since India has a trade deficit with Russia, in certain cases, a barter system can also be activated easily, he added.

Under the rupee-rial mechanism, Indian refiners used to import crude oil from Iran and make payments to the designated rupee-account at Uco Bank and IDBI Bank. This continued until crude oil was in the exempted list of US sanctions.

India’s exports to Russia grew 36% on year until December this fiscal to $2.55 billion but its imports jumped 81% to as much as $6.89 billion, leading to a trade deficit of $4.34 billion for New Delhi. India mostly buys petroleum products, diamonds and other precious stones and fertilisers from Russia. Similarly, it ships out capital goods, pharmaceutical products, organic chemicals and auto parts to Moscow.

“These are early days and we don’t expect much of a problem as yet. However, we need to be prepared for any eventuality, using past experiences,” one of them said. The crisis has prompted domestic exporters to tread cautiously on firming fresh supply contracts with Russian importers.
The US has announced new economic sanctions that target two major Russian financial institutions and five Russian oligarchs in response to what it calls Moscow’s escalating aggression against Ukraine. US President Joseph Biden has also warned that “if Russia goes further with an invasion, we stand prepared to go further as with sanctions.”

European foreign ministers have agreed to sanction 27 individuals and entities, including banks financing Russian decision-makers. The UK has imposed sanctions on Gennady Timchenko and two other billionaires with close links to Russian President Vladimir Putin, and on five banks – Rossiya, IS Bank, GenBank, Promsvyazbank and the Black Sea Bank.

However, analysts say the impact of the latest set of measures against Russia will likely be limited, and western nations are keeping the much larger sanctions packages that they have planned in reserve should the crisis escalate. American lawmakers had earlier suggested that Russia could be removed from SWIFT, a network that connect thousands of financial institutions around the world, if it invades Ukraine.



https://www.financialexpress.com/ec...t-to-weigh-alternative-payment-modes/2443170/
 

crixus

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India uses UCO bank to pay to both Russia and Iran , but more worrisome is the deals regarding the spares and new defence procurements
 

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(original story: https://www.ft.com/content/5efc6338-3f01-4015-aedf-53a4a1944ca8 )


Russian oil exports to India surge as Europe shuns cargoes

Delhi maintains close trading ties with Moscow despite western sanctions


Russian oil exports to India have quadrupled this month in a sign of the vast reshaping of global energy flows since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

India, the world’s third-largest energy consuming country, has snapped up multiple cargoes of Russian oil from traders as buyers in Europe shunned the country’s vast commodities market following western sanctions on Moscow.

Russia has exported 360,000 barrels a day of oil to India in March so far, nearly four times the 2021 average. The country is on track to hit 203,000 b/d for the whole month based on current shipment schedules, according to Kpler, a commodities data and analytics firm. Export data represent cargoes that have been loaded on to tankers and are en route to India.

Alex Booth, head of research at Kpler, said India typically buys CPC, a blend of predominantly Kazakh and Russian crude, but the big increase in March was for Russia’s flagship Urals crude, suggesting Indian buyers weighed up significant discounts against public opinion.

“Already committed oil cargoes from Russia that can’t find buyers in Europe are being bought by India,” he said. “Exports to India surged in March before any official announcement by New Delhi.”

On Tuesday, White House press secretary Jen Psaki warned that India would be on the wrong side of history if it bought Russian oil, although she acknowledged the purchases would not violate US sanctions.

Historically, Russian crude oil has constituted below 5 per cent of India’s total imports, which were 4.2mn b/d last year.

“Indian companies weren’t sourcing much from Russia given high shipping costs,” said Vivekanand Subbaraman, research analyst at Ambit Capital. “This appears to be changing now.”

Lars Barstad, chief executive of Frontline, a New York-listed tanker company, said that the discount on Russian Urals was about $25-30 a barrel, whereas freight rates would only add $3-4 per barrel, making the trade economic.

Frontline and other tanker companies have been avoiding trading Russian oil because of the complexity of complying with sanctions, but many oil majors and traders are legally bound under contracts to keep lifting Russian barrels.

India and Russia have a longstanding partnership, from defence to trade, and Putin visited India last December — only his second overseas trip since the pandemic. New Delhi has so far abstained on UN votes condemning Russian aggression.

With 85 per cent of India’s crude needs covered by imports, higher oil prices act as a drag on its treasury.

Subbaraman said: “I think that all three state-owned refiners will purchase oil from Russia given how import dependent and politically sensitive energy is for Indians.”

Speaking to Indian lawmakers this week, Indian oil minister Hardeep Singh Puri stressed that energy prices in India have not soared as much as they have in Europe and the US, rising only 5 per cent. India would act in the interest of local consumers within “the margin of persuasion”, he added.

Russia’s deputy prime minister Alexander Novak and Singh Puri spoke by phone last week. “We are interested in further attracting Indian investment to the Russian oil and gas sector and expanding Russian companies’ sales networks in India,” Novak said.

Indian officials have said that the central bank and government are looking at establishing a rupee-rouble trading mechanism, which would facilitate trade after western restrictions on international payments to and from Russia.

The two countries have several joint energy interests. Rosneft owns 49 per cent of Nayara Energy, which runs India’s second largest refinery.

India’s Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas, Indian Oil Corporation and Nayara Energy did not respond to requests for comment.
 

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Interestingly enough, anti-Indian sentiments are growing in the Western media. The coverage becomes increasingly critical.
 

Nilgiri

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Interestingly enough, anti-Indian sentiments are growing in the Western media. The coverage becomes increasingly critical.

They can blab whatever they want in their filthy media...

We know exactly what they will have to do first to get principled themselves on their own logic:


Plenty more where that came from....plenty plenty more.

In US case, these are people that after all kept the arms + support flowing to the main backer (their own words) of the Haqqani network...while their own soldiers died due to the same.

We will simply bring that up, they will back off and thats it. So they wont bring it up (where it matters). Period.

i.e Transactional policy triumphs there (even at their own soldiers lives)....transactional policy triumphs elsewhere. i.e it is the clear default norm.

Its that simple.

They spent the last few years telling India not to buy Iranian energy.....and now these same people are running there to get in line first.

So if they want to flex on India past that anyway (they wont, because they know what the purpose of their media is to begin with....segregated from their policy makers sufficiently)....we will see them demonstrate it 100 times more on China first. Which we will then be happy to accommodate....once that is proven.
 

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