India Navy Indian Conventional Submarine Programs (SSK)

[Windchime]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1671803599834464256

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1678336076988010496

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...k-submarines-from-france-101688953456665.html

"The three additional Kalveri class submarines will be fitted with air independent propulsion (AIP), which has been designed by the DRDO but will be tested and validated by the French Naval Group. The AIP gives longer endurance to a normal diesel attack submarine and allows it to remain submerged for over a week without the need to surface to charge its batteries."

Ordering three more Scorpènes is a sensible decision. I don't understand why they have the P-75I competition instead of just continuing with the Scorpène design.

Is it some problem with the French design or management or the Kalveri class leak? Or do they just want a larger SSK boat with more endurance and VLS for land attack missiles?

For me it seems like India would be better served with just continuing with the Scorpène design for SSKs and spending the money saved on speeding up the SSN program. As Australia showed with the Attack-class program it makes no sense trying to develop a SSK with SSN-like capabilities when you can just build a SSN. Even the largest SSKs today can't match the range, endurance and payload capabilities of a true blue water SSN.

So, all these reports suggests that the programs for 1) refitting existing P75 submarines with DRDO PAFC, 2) a second batch of P75 consisting of 3 Scorpene class boats, and 3) P75I procurement all coexists right now I undesrtand? I'd say that's some major leap forward in terms of commitment of investment for the submarine fleet of IN.

I agree overall. Overall the expedience of bird in the hand worth 2 in the bush is hopefully kept in mind by IN (given the SSK numbers dropping well behind the original plan 20+ years ago)....given I dont see cost benefit and the time involved being good w.r.t say S-80 w.r.t larger tonnage it brings to bear....and the way I see this all playing out in potential conflicts downstream (I value having more sub numbers and ASAP).

We will know later this year what becomes of P75 I or if it will just be scrapped and more scorpenes ordered given DRDO AIP and further customisation and familiarity with the system and how that all is worked out between France and India.

India let go Mirage 2000 production line shift as well and this was costly mistake IMO. Just like the premature HDW 209 shelving in the 90s (leading to scorpene now in first place) and all the ToT that was abandoned by that.

I'm also of opinion, as I've always said, that they should axe the P75I. Especially since none of the AIP system on offer from the candidates are PAFC and as for the German and Korean offers, both of which use PEMFC with a metal hydride storage, they need a dedicated pure hydrogen facility which makes things even trickier. So unless they add a requirement of integration of DRDO PAFC for the P75I, it would be an incompatible double investment for IN's fleet of AIP subs. That's ignoring the fact that adding such requirement would make things even more difficult.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1682656316572192768

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1702253465513451703

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

@Nilgiri

Can you tell me a little bit about how the story of Submarine production started for India, and especially the procurement of the Scorpene/Kalvari submarines along with TOT?

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri

Can you tell me a little bit about how the story of Submarine production started for India, and especially the procurement of the Scorpene/Kalvari submarines along with TOT?

India first tried to acquire US submarines, but cold war politics (and their provision to Pakistan first) meant India went the Soviet route here for cold war (the foxtrots, and later the kilos)

This built up the original operating experience and related design legacy inherited.

A move was made to Germany in the 80s (the HDW 209 class), including transfer of technology, but this was scuppered by corruption involved in the process and this avenue was essentially abandoned and replaced with French (and starting whole thing again in shipyards with French i.e DCNS now naval group). This is one leg of the larger Indo-French strategic partnership that has grown since the 80s/90s especially. The scorpene/kalvari as you have noted will likely be the SSK bedrock for development further.

On the nuclear propulsion front, there has been cooperation mostly with the Soviets and then Russians to augment India's own efforts with BARC (and the French have also participated in some measure too). This might also be shifting to the French with time, we will have to see.

The full indigenous transmission/absorption/deployment/refinement of all of this with the wherewithall within India can only be demonstrated in future classes still to come, we have to see. There is tradeoff as always in commiting Human resource here compared to other needs in defence sector....relative to analysing what can be done (capability, time and cost wise) with cooperation with other countries etc.

@Anmdt @Gessler may have more to add.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

A move was made to Germany in the 80s (the HDW 209 class), including transfer of technology, but this was scuppered by corruption involved in the process and this avenue was essentially abandoned and replaced with French (and starting whole thing again in shipyards with French i.e DCNS now naval group). This is one leg of the larger Indo-French strategic partnership that has grown since the 80s/90s especially. The scorpene/kalvari as you have noted will likely be the SSK bedrock for development further.

What kind of technology transfer did the Naval Group give to India? I do know that the submarines will be built in India by the "MDL" shipyard. TOT regarding construction and manufacturing was given.


Quote from Naval Group:

On the agenda: training in all the techniques pertaining to modern submarine construction, as well as in the manufacturing of many principal equipment. Technical assistance (advising and monitoring) on the manufacture and trials for the first two submarines; supply of all the documentation needed for the procurement of equipment and for the construction of the platform, as well as for the maintenance of the submarine were part of the deliverable..

 

[Windchime]

BTW, someone who's visited Hanhwa booth in ADEX wrote in a Korean website that Hanhwa Ocean (formerly DSME) is not interested in P-75(I) anymore. So I think it's now a two-horse race between improved Kalvari with DRDO AIP and Type 216/218.

 

[Afif]

BTW, someone who's visited Hanhwa booth in ADEX wrote in a Korean website that Hanhwa Ocean (formerly DSME) is not interested in P-75(I) anymore. So I think it's now a two-horse race between improved Kalvari with DRDO AIP and Type 216/218.

I don't think Type-216 got any chance.
It is only a concept on paper and would be too expensive. (It is better for India to invest that kind of money in its SSN program)

 

[Windchime]

I don't think Type-216 got any chance.
It is only a concept on paper and would be too expensive. (It is better for India to invest that kind of money in its SSN program)

I've just mentioned it since details regarding TKMS offer to India was not revealed in detail. There are speculations that they have offered Type 216, though I agree that most likely they've offered Type 218.

 

[Nilgiri]

What kind of technology transfer did the Naval Group give to India? I do know that the submarines will be built in India by the "MDL" shipyard. TOT regarding construction and manufacturing was given.


Quote from Naval Group:

On the agenda: training in all the techniques pertaining to modern submarine construction, as well as in the manufacturing of many principal equipment. Technical assistance (advising and monitoring) on the manufacture and trials for the first two submarines; supply of all the documentation needed for the procurement of equipment and for the construction of the platform, as well as for the maintenance of the submarine were part of the deliverable..

Basically all the equipment, tooling, dies, training of personnel in the manufacturing and process handling etc. These are unique for each submarine class in the end.

The country getting the ToT then has to take that forward in its own way to get better, experienced on application to any of its own future designs and production.

 

[Marlii]

BTW, someone who's visited Hanhwa booth in ADEX wrote in a Korean website that Hanhwa Ocean (formerly DSME) is not interested in P-75(I) anymore. So I think it's now a two-horse race between improved Kalvari with DRDO AIP and Type 216/218.

Naval group has exited p75I long time ago. Its spanish S80 vs what Germans are offering

 

[Nilgiri]

Naval group has exited p75I long time ago. Its spanish S80 vs what Germans are offering

Still with pace of P75I I foresee and Naval group getting order for 3 additional scorpene (and DRDO fits AIP on them)....there could be restart of P75I in some new form later if contenders there are adjudged too pricey for what navy gets from it. This is typical stuff that happens a lot with Indian defence bureaucracy. That would benefit naval group given scorpene economy of scale to take forward within India at that point (to new evolved design with what can be harnessed internally compared to new design from scratch again).

Lot might depend how SSN program impetus and speed shapes up w.r.t resources deployed there. Also Andaman Nicobar island defence/offence infra capability ramping up. These are heavy commitments that Navy and south block will have to make analysis and decisions on soon...each road will dip into and subtract what is available for another road (though all roads need pursuing).

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1728647779403100374

 

[Marlii]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1730822854063563118

 

[Migflug]

My first post in Defence Hub.

Hello fellow members, now the the PDF is finally going down, finally joining you peeps for the international exposure!!

 

[Nilgiri]

My first post in Defence Hub.

Hello fellow members, now the the PDF is finally going down, finally joining you peeps for the international exposure!!

Welcome to the forum!

Given international nature of the forum, it is English-only for all threads (except specific home threads like Coffee house in Indian one).

So the videos and content you post has to be in English or have English subtitles as far as possible (you can provide them too as points in your post).

You are new member so I will leave this up, but please do return and edit the post to leave a summary of the main points in the video etc.

 

[JOYDEEPGHOSH]

Common Sense Dictates P75I be 9 Super Scorpene Submarine Built by Mazagaon Docks Limited

Common Sense Dictates P75I be 9 Super Scorpene Submarine Built by Mazagaon Docks Limited

1. As Mazagaon Docks is building its last 1 Scorpene, Govt of India has given the nod to the P75I submarine project for 50000 crores. Idea...

rbt-defense.blogspot.com

 

[Jammer]

Common Sense Dictates P75I be 9 Super Scorpene Submarine Built by Mazagaon Docks Limited

Common Sense Dictates P75I be 9 Super Scorpene Submarine Built by Mazagaon Docks Limited

1. As Mazagaon Docks is building its last 1 Scorpene, Govt of India has given the nod to the P75I submarine project for 50000 crores. Idea...

rbt-defense.blogspot.com

Common sense is when you see the timing of delivery of kalveri subs by mazagaon docks and how stretched out it is. Instead of some " Defence expert" babbling something that they have no idea about.

 

[dronie]

Indian Navy Completes Technical Evaluation of P-75I Submarine Bids – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

The project now is gathering up pace. There is a good chance that S 80 plus class is gonna win.

 

[dronie]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1765973135801860329