India Indian Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Archive

Kedikesenfare

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Assuming this news is true, I would like to know why this program took so long. What exactly is causing India to be so extremely slow in developing engines?

Financial resources? India has it.
Human resources? India has it.
Outside pressure? India has it.

I feel like India's bureaucratic system is strangling the military project but this is just based on a hunch.
 

Abheer

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Orpheus was not "reverse-engineered", it was too weak to power the next gen of aircraft that were already appearing and that India had to stay in touch with. The Marut experience would further solidify this reality.

The GTX 37-14U (India's first aviation axial gas turbine) was at least twice as powerful than the Orpheus (10k lbf dry thrust compared to 5k lbf)

Essentially the Orpheus formed a major part of what was studied and incorporated into GTRE RnD basis at that point in time to take forward with for example the (larger, more powerful) GTX testbeds.

You can peruse more information in following discussions and resources and try additional internet searches (and book finding) of your own as time and interest pertains:

Thanks alot sir for the reply. I think you are talking about the replacement of subsonic compressor stages into transonic compressor stages and the addition of GTRE-made afterburner in Orpheus as RnD, am I right, sir ?
 

Baryshx

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Assuming this news is true, I would like to know why this program took so long. What exactly is causing India to be so extremely slow in developing engines?

Financial resources? India has it.
Human resources? India has it.
Outside pressure? India has it.

I feel like India's bureaucratic system is strangling the military project but this is just based on a hunch.
The reason is technological capability and education. In such matters, India, Turkiye and Iran should have been in better places. These are the countries with a history...all because of the imprudence and treachery of the rulers.
 

Nilgiri

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Thanks alot sir for the reply. I think you are talking about the replacement of subsonic compressor stages into transonic compressor stages and the addition of GTRE-made afterburner in Orpheus as RnD, am I right, sir ?

Sure. But even without afterburner, the (dry) thrust of GTX 37-14U doubled from orpheus.

So obviously there was some exit velocity (and average throughput velocity) increase (at every thrust setting) that would precipitate design changes in the inlet, compressor and combustor inlet vanes (past the changes in turbine section too).....and of course the LP compressor adding another spool (and thus more bearings and other issues) to a separate turbine stage.

But I would imagine the greatest change and result came from increasing the diameter and thus airflow volume involved that gave most of the basis for the final max thrust being double that of Orpheus.

We do not have many details on this testbed (GTX 37-14U ) unfortunately.
 

Nilgiri

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Assuming this news is true, I would like to know why this program took so long. What exactly is causing India to be so extremely slow in developing engines?

Financial resources? India has it.
Human resources? India has it.
Outside pressure? India has it.

I feel like India's bureaucratic system is strangling the military project but this is just based on a hunch.

With resources factored in, you can make a gas turbine....but it will likely be heavy and weight is premium in aviation especially. Then there are reliability issues to factor in too given a gas turbine is used extensively repeatedly compared to a rocket engine in a missile.

The material science (to make things lighter and also reliable at same time in such niche area) was out of reach for India for the most part in cold war (thats a lot of years in the end).

What India did manage in that specific area of material science, it had to prioritise to rocketry and missiles given the results were more pressing there, given absolute need to have a consequential strategic missile arsenal to time well with the nuclear program results. One time use gas turbines (for things like cruise missiles) are now the natural progression of RnD in India relatively speaking too.

But back then, things like high pressure, high RPM, high performance turbo-pumps made more sense to focus on with results on hand (and with one-time use nature of a rocket aiding with this) before diverting those human and financial resources to the significantly more difficult but relatively lower priority of gas turbine powerplants.

The results of this choice (genuinely researching and engineering solutions for rocket propulsion) manifest in India being able to convert ballistic missile technology into a large space launcher program as well, unlike a certain neighbour which imported M-11s but didnt (or couldn't) go for any larger aptitude.
 

Kedikesenfare

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With resources factored in, you can make a gas turbine....but it will likely be heavy and weight is premium in aviation especially. Then there are reliability issues to factor in too given a gas turbine is used extensively repeatedly compared to a rocket engine in a missile.

The material science (to make things lighter and also reliable at same time in such niche area) was out of reach for India for the most part in cold war (thats a lot of years in the end).

What India did manage in that specific area of material science, it had to prioritise to rocketry and missiles given the results were more pressing there, given absolute need to have a consequential strategic missile arsenal to time well with the nuclear program results. One time use gas turbines (for things like cruise missiles) are now the natural progression of RnD in India relatively speaking too.

But back then, things like high pressure, high RPM, high performance turbo-pumps made more sense to focus on with results on hand (and with one-time use nature of a rocket aiding with this) before diverting those human and financial resources to the significantly more difficult but relatively lower priority of gas turbine powerplants.

The results of this choice (genuinely researching and engineering solutions for rocket propulsion) manifest in India being able to convert ballistic missile technology into a large space launcher program as well, unlike a certain neighbour which imported M-11s but didnt (or couldn't) go for any larger aptitude.
This makes sense. I believe that this is also the case with China.
 

rai456

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Assuming this news is true, I would like to know why this program took so long. What exactly is causing India to be so extremely slow in developing engines?

Financial resources? India has it.
Human resources? India has it.
Outside pressure? India has it.

I feel like India's bureaucratic system is strangling the military project but this is just based on a hunch.
India did not really have the financial resources. It was a very poor country until very recently and investing 10s of billions on a jet engine program was proabably too much for it to afford. It takes tens of billions of dollars to develop a new engine. India spent like less than 2 billion on their program over many decades. You can't realistically develop a new engine for so little. They did not even invest enough to buy their own flying test bed. Developing a jet engine on the cheap does not work.
To develop your own gas tubine engine requires tens of billions of dollars and decades of work. Jet engine technology is one of the most difficult technologies to master. China has dedicated the resources to actually develop their own engine and even they are still very far behind the Americans and the British after 10s of billions of dollars invested and decades of hard work.
 

Abheer

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Sure. But even without afterburner, the (dry) thrust of GTX 37-14U doubled from orpheus.

So obviously there was some exit velocity (and average throughput velocity) increase (at every thrust setting) that would precipitate design changes in the inlet, compressor and combustor inlet vanes (past the changes in turbine section too).....and of course the LP compressor adding another spool (and thus more bearings and other issues) to a separate turbine stage.

But I would imagine the greatest change and result came from increasing the diameter and thus airflow volume involved that gave most of the basis for the final max thrust being double that of Orpheus.

We do not have many details on this testbed (GTX 37-14U ) unfortunately.
Thanks alot sir. 🙏🏻
 

Rajendra Chola

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I don’t know how challenging or true it would be. If true it would still be an good idea to integrate this with TEDBF as Rafale M engines also have similar performance.

But we don’t know about the reliability and the sustainability of this engine. This engine can attain 80kn but has vibrational and heating issues sustaining at that power level. Moreover the Navy would be hard pressed to accept such an fighter with this engine. Unfortunately an new engine has to be clean sheet design.
 

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While a large number of global original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) echo the Indian government’s Make in India and Atmanirbhar Bharat (self-sufficient India) slogans, British engine company Rolls-Royce has thrown its hat in the ring to design and develop engines for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which will form the backbone of the IAF’s fifth-generation fighter fleet starting a decade from now.

“This is about co-creating the intellectual property (IP) that goes into a new fighter engine. This will be a greenfield design and will take a decade to create,” says Kishore Jayaraman, who heads Rolls-Royce India.

There is little appetite amongst combat aircraft engine makers to share the IP that results from a co-creation project. The US and India had begun a project to co-develop a fighter engine under the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI), but the American firms decided against sharing IP.

French engine maker, Safran, was unwilling to cooperate with the DRDO to co-create the Kaveri engine.

“We are keen to partner India for the co-development of combat engine technology in the country. We believe that such a partnership should result in the transfer of both know-how and know-why, with all IP for critical combat engine technology resting with India, allowing future customisation and improvisations,” says Jayaraman.

Rolls-Royce, however, points out that it has been acting in accordance with the principles of Atmanirbharta for almost a century.

Jayaraman says the first delivery of mail by air, which was done from Karachi to Bombay in 1932, was flown by JRD Tata in a Puss Moth aircraft with Rolls-Royce engines. In 1936, the first squadron of the Indian Air Force (IAF) was raised, flying Westland Wapiti aircraft with Rolls-Royce engines.

In 1956, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) began a 50-year partnership with Rolls-Royce for manufacturing the Orpheus engine. In 1981, the IAF began inducting the Jaguar deep penetration strike aircraft, which was powered by the Rolls-Royce Adour 804/811 engines.

“We have worked shoulder-to-shoulder with HAL to keep the Adour 804/811 in service for some 45 years. How many OEMs stand ready to support an engine for that long,” says Jayaraman.

In the 2000s, HAL began manufacturing the Hawk trainer, while also building the Rolls-Royce Adour 871 engines that powered it.

Now, says Jayaraman, Rolls-Royce is ready to take the next step, which is to design and develop aero engines in partnership with Indian firms. “We want to develop intellectual property in India,” he says.

Currently, some 750 Rolls-Royce engines power aircraft in service with the IAF, the Indian Navy, and HAL.

Rolls-Royce is offering marine engines for the Indian Navy, including its MT-30 turbines, which Rolls-Royce’s Alex Zino describes as one of the world’s most power-dense engines. The MT-30 provides all-electric drive to both the Royal Navy’s Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers.

The next Indian aircraft carrier is being conceived as a 65,000 tonne vessel, similar to the Queen Elizabeth-class.

Rolls-Royce subsidiary, MTU, which has been acquired by Rolls-Royce Power Systems, might also provide its MB 838 engine for a new 35-40-tonne light tank that DRDO is developing for Indian troops in places such as Eastern Ladakh, where the Indian Army found itself confronting Chinese armour.
 

Philip the Arab

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@Nilgiri
There may be a chance that Indian gas turbines will power UAE cruise and anti ship missiles. Good opportunity for HAL to be a subsystem provider and build a relationship with EDGE.

India is right across the neighborhood and there is already a great relationship between the two countries.


"Additionally, both companies will explore the utilisation of HAL’s small gas turbine engines on EDGE’s guided weapons, utilisation of EDGE’s GPS jamming and spoofing equipment on HAL’s platforms, and opportunities for further knowledge sharing."
 
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Nilgiri

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@Nilgiri
There may be a chance that Indian gas turbines will power UAE cruise and anti ship missiles. Good opportunity for HAL to be a subsystem provider and build a relationship with EDGE.

India is right across the neighborhood and there is already a great relationship between the two countries.


"Additionally, both companies will explore the utilisation of HAL’s small gas turbine engines on EDGE’s guided weapons, utilisation of EDGE’s GPS jamming and spoofing equipment on HAL’s platforms, and opportunities for further knowledge sharing."

Yes I am very optimistic this relationship will keep going from strength to strength.

UAE is very serious about diversifying its economy into areas that India is growing at same time, so there is going to be a lot of synergy on offer for mutual benefit...both in defence and conventional sectors.
 

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N.B Rs 500 crore ~ 60 million USD


BENGALURU: Godrej Aerospace, a division of Godrej and Boyce, is investing around Rs 500 crore in a new manufacturing facility at Khalapur, located about 70km from Mumbai. This greenfield project, spread out on 100 acres of land, is anticipated to be completed within three years, and will be devoted to the defence and aerospace markets, the company said.




Godrej Aerospace AVP and business head Maneck Behramkamdin told TNIE that the investment will largely be towards establishing infrastructure and machinery, among other things. In September 2022, Godrej Aerospace won an order to manufacture eight modules for a DRDO engine. “It’s a Kaveri derivative engine – a 48 kN dry engine without an afterburner – for which we have the order to manufacture eight modules. As we speak, we are in the advanced stages of making the modules and getting into actual manufacturing,” Behramkamdin said.

It is learnt that the engine will be used in some autonomous air vehicles. “The design is according to the GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment). We will manufacture the modules with our ecosystem partners. All processing, tooling and engineering will be done by Godrej. These engines would be delivered by late 2023 or early 2024,” he added.



Godrej has been a major contributor to the country’s aerospace story. It has been manufacturing engines for space. Godrej Aerospace has been partnering with ISRO for over 30 years to manufacture complex systems such as liquid propulsion engines for PSLV and GSLV rockets, thrusters for satellites, and antenna systems. The company has also played an integral part in the Chandrayaan and Mangalyaan missions. “With our consortium partner MTAR, we have delivered around 220 (Vikas) engines to ISRO. We have also delivered a good number of cryogenic engines,” Behramkamdin said.

Elaborating on the company’s other plans, he said, “We have been in the business of manufacturing the airframe for BrahMos for more than 20 years. We continue in that direction in the realm of airframes, mechanical systems, pneumatic systems, hydraulic systems, actuators for the LCA, and our foray into engines.”

“Today, we work for companies like Rolls-Royce and Safran for commercial aircraft... With the Kaveri engines, we want to gain experience and partner into modules. We want to go up in the value-chain... We are also getting into new categories, such as crash-worthy seating for helicopters and aircraft. Our focus is on missile systems, airframes and engines, among others,” he concluded.
 

Nilgiri

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@Gessler et al, lets see what comes of it:



US To Clear Joint Production Of F-414 Jet Engines In India For Tejas Mark II Before PM Modi’s Visit​


byUjjwal Shrotryia-Monday, May 15, 2023 02:30 PM IST


The US is anticipated to grant approval for production of the General Electric (GE) F-414 jet engine for the Tejas MK-II fighter jet in India, ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's forthcoming visit to the US.

Earlier, the White House announced the dates of Prime Minister Modi's first visit to US during the Biden Administration. Scheduled for 22 June 2023, the visit will include a state dinner.

The US and India will also hold the inaugural session of 'Strategic Trade Dialogue' on 4 and 5 June, during which India and the US are expected to expedite outcomes, decided in the Initiative on Critical and Emerging technologies (iCET) signed between Indian and US NSAs on 31 January.

According to an HT report, the decision to start this dialogue was taken when US Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo visited India on 10 March.

The Indian Foreign Secretary Vinay Kwatra will hold discussions with the US Under-Secretary of Commerce for Industry and Security Alan Estevez, as part of the dialogue.

The dialogue will include deliberations on removing hurdles under International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and Export Administration Regulations (EAR).

This will make it easy for US companies to do joint production of high-tech military equipment like jet engines, munitions and drones with Indian companies.

As part of the iCET, GE is also working to shift its F-414 manufacturing to India from the European Union. The GE F-414 is a low-bypass turbofan engine which produces a maximum thrust of 98 KN.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has selected the GE F-414 engine to power its new Tejas MK-II fighter jet. The Tejas MK-II will be a bigger, heavier, faster, and technically more advanced fighter than the LCA Tejas MK-1A.

Apart from the GE jet engines, India is also collaborating to establish resilient supply chains for semiconductors with the US.

Another proposal is to develop advanced intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) technologies for maritime domain awareness in the Indo-Pacific, as part of which India has also leased two MQ-9 Sea Guardian drones from the US.
 
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