India Jet Engines and Gas Turbines

[Nilgiri]

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-hal-safran-to-start-work-on-engines-to-power-imrh-and-dbmrh-3088881/

HAL, Safran to start work on engines to power IMRH and DBMRH​

In 2022 the two sides had signed an MoU in the presence of Safran Global CEO Olivier Andriès and the top official of state-owned HAL, under which the joint venture is expected meet the requirements of the Indian armed forces as well the future 13-ton Indian Multi-Role Helicopter (IMRH) and its naval variant the Deck Based Multi Role Helicopter (DBMRH).​

Written by Huma Siddqui
May 15, 2023 19:47 IST

Ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris in July, design and development work on the helicopter engines under the joint venture between French company Safran Helicopter Engines and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is set to start soon.

In 2022 the two sides had signed an MoU in the presence of Safran Global CEO Olivier Andriès and the top official of state-owned HAL, under which the joint venture is expected meet the requirements of the Indian armed forces as well the future 13-ton Indian Multi-Role Helicopter (IMRH) and its naval variant the Deck Based Multi Role Helicopter (DBMRH). Under this partnership the local defence manufacturing ecosystem in the country will play an important role.

It has been reported earlier both Safran Helicopter Engines and HAL have already inked a workshare agreement for the development of the engine for the 13 tonne IMRH and its naval version Deck-Based Multi-Role Helicopter (DBMRH). Both sides have already discussed and agreed on an equivalent repartition and HAL will participate in the design, development and production of the core engine components. The IMRH is expected to be launched four years from now.

These helicopters as reported by Financial Express Online earlier are for the Indian Army and the Air Force and will have the capability to take off and land 5 km altitude.

And these will replace the ageing Mi series Russian made military helicopters which the Indian Air Force (IAF) will start phasing out by 2028-29.

Also, Helicopter Engines MRO Pvt Limited (HE-MRO) facility has already been inaugurated in Goa which will help in providing maintenance services to more than 1000 Safran-designed helicopter engines.

Deck based Helicopter for the Indian Navy​

These helicopters are expected to go on the newly inducted indigenous aircraft carrier.

There are multiple partnerships between HAL and Safran Helicopter Engines are already in existence and these include the Shakti engine. This engine powers the HAL built helicopters like the Rudra, Light Combat Helicopter and Dhruv.

Under a 50/50 joint venture between HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines set up last July near the Kempegowda International Airport makes complex piping, which is used mostly for the LEAP engine.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1662866121895329792

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1663765470850469888

India & US close to mega defence deal: Pact for fighter jet engines 1st, ship engines likely next

Transfer of Technology (ToT) for jet engines was the main thrust of National Security Advisor Ajit Doval's talks with his American counterpart Jack Sullivan in February.

theprint.in

 

[rai456]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1663765470850469888

India & US close to mega defence deal: Pact for fighter jet engines 1st, ship engines likely next

Transfer of Technology (ToT) for jet engines was the main thrust of National Security Advisor Ajit Doval's talks with his American counterpart Jack Sullivan in February.

theprint.in

How is this different from the Sweden/Turkey/South Korea engine deals?

 

[Nilgiri]

How is this different from the Sweden/Turkey/South Korea engine deals?

Its not much different at all in the end. ToT they are saying will be around "60%", I guess lets see what that involves and if it will be any help for India in progressing its Kaveri powerplant family. It depends on details we are not privy to, we can only observe over longer time period the results.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1664157153614237699

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1668097862742298626

 

[Gessler]

Its not much different at all in the end. ToT they are saying will be around "60%", I guess lets see what that involves and if it will be any help for India in progressing its Kaveri powerplant family. It depends on details we are not privy to, we can only observe over longer time period the results.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1664157153614237699

If these reports are true, this is going to be very different:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1669923702086176769

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1669926108924645376

 

[Afif]

Why they are holding up 20% of three decades old engine tech?
GE already running ground test with their 6th gen XA101. Surely, it wouldn’t hurt them give India full access to F414s technology.

 

[Gessler]

Why they are holding up 20% of three decades old engine tech?
GE already running ground test with their 6th gen XA101. Surely, it wouldn’t hurt them give India full access to F414s technology.

Because the 414 is still decades ahead of what Russia/China have.

Doubt anyone would part with entirety of such IPRs. Even 80% is unprecedented...not even treaty allies like South Korea had that much access.

 

[Nilgiri]

If these reports are true, this is going to be very different:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1669923702086176769

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1669926108924645376

Given scale of the strategic partnership envisaged and sheer number of project orders in the pipeline, yes it will be different to the previous countries. GE also would benefit from being able to grow its commercial arm supply chain presence going forward in India too.

But overall its just being scaled to India (size and aligned strategy with US), so that is what I meant by not that different in the essence.

Anyway let us see what confirmed details come of it later.

What remains to be seen is how these will over time help GTRE own ecosystem so we have as close to full autonomy here in longer timeframe....and how maybe an Indian conglomerate later takes on production side of that

i.e where does the "80%" fall and where does the "20%" fall regarding the gaps there currently.

That can only be seen with passage of time. Just like we see things in hindsight now with more clarity.

 

[Nilgiri]

US seals key ‘jet engine deal’ ahead of Modi’s visit

The US administration has completed the executive approvals for the manufacture of F414 jet engines in India.

www.hindustantimes.com

Sealing a key deliverable during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s state visit to Washington DC, the United States (US) administration has completed the executive approvals for the manufacture of F414 jet engines in India and begun the process of notifying the US Congress about the impending Memorandum of Understanding to be signed between General Electric (GE) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), people familiar with discussions on the subject said.

This is the first time that the US will share what it called a “crown jewel” in its defence capabilities with a non-ally; it is the first time that there will be coproduction of jet engines with a country with which Washington DC doesn’t have a treaty; it is also the first time that the US system is sharing a substantial share of sensitive jet engine technology with a provision for tech transfer ratio to increase.


“It is transformative. India will have access to the full engine. There are no black boxes here. The manufacturing in India is going to start with technology sharing of way over 50% which rises over the production cycle. There will be a flexible licensing agreement. India will have designs and sensitive technology. This is more tech transfer than the US has ever authorised. We are breaking through into new frontiers,” said a person aware of the discussions.

It is understood that commerce, state and defense departments have pushed through executive approvals, with regard to International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR); the administration is notifying the Senate and House armed services and foreign relations committees; and the process will take a few weeks to get to the full Congress. But given the strong bipartisan support India enjoys on the Hill, it is expected to move through smoothly.


In the meantime, during the PM’s visit, GE and HAL will sign an MoU on the manufacturing deal. The jet engines will power Tejas MK 2 fighter planes.


Explaining the significance of the decision, from the American perspective, Sameer Lalwani, a senior expert at the US Institute of Peace (USIP), said, “For the US, this is a significant move – a ‘costly signal’ as social scientists say – to share some highly sensitive technology, which it has never shared with a non-ally. Such transfers can be made possible, not simply with blueprints but from the transmission of tacit and organisational knowledge through a shared ecology of joint research, manufacturing, and supply chains.”


From the Indian perspective, Lalwani said, the deal offered access to better fighter jet engines than what China possessed – “with greater power and efficiency, longer service life, and less maintenance”. “It also offers India a coveted technology cooperation partnership and path to research, design, and produce its own cutting-edge aeroengines and upstream inputs.”


Given the deal’s political importance, Lalwani said, it can help catalyse a much broader defence technology and industrial partnership between the US and India, “ranging from basic science to lab research and development to codevelopment and commercialisation of new capabilities for advanced domains”.


In a recent report arguing for the deal, Heritage Foundation’s John Venable and Jeff Smith noted, “The deal would bolster India’s capacity to field indigenously produced fighters with some of the most powerful and reliable engines in the class, saving decades of research and development costs.” They added that the F414 engine technology transfer will also expand on the “already growing interoperability between US and Indian military systems”.


Under the initiative on critical and emerging technologies (ICET), unveiled by national security advisers Ajit Doval and Jake Sullivan in January, the US acknowledged that it had received an application from GR to “to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft operated and produced indigenously by India”. During secretary of defense Lloyd Austin and NSA Sullivan’s visit to India this month, they discussed the subject in detail with their Indian counterparts. Those involved in the discussions said that ICET and the leadership of NSAs made a big difference, as did the focus on actual deliverables.

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Nilgiri]

HAL, General Electric sign MoU to manufacture jet engine, mark new era for India-US defence ties

Deal is one of big highlights of PM Modi's visit to the US. While India & other countries manufacture their own fighter aircraft, only a select few make jet engines.

theprint.in

Why GE's plan to make fighter jet engines in India is a big deal

General Electric's aerospace unit has signed an agreement with India's Hindustan Aeronautics to jointly produce engines in India to power fighter jets for the IAF. The GE engine in question is called the F414 and will power Tejas Mark 2 and India's next-generation Advanced Medium Combat...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Hari Sud]

How much is this jet engine technology will help in development of local engine …… Any guesses. Or the contract prohibits any transfer of knowledge even.

 

[Nilgiri]

How much is this jet engine technology will help in development of local engine …… Any guesses. Or the contract prohibits any transfer of knowledge even.

Read reply 110 above. We will have to wait and see how it goes....these matters are classified for most part in the details involved. We can only judge on evidence produced later.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1673707669343928320

 

[Bürküt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1673707669343928320

India is like WW1 Italy in my eyes .All the kidding aside what do you think is the path to follow for the development of the new engine.When the Rolls Royce-Kale partnership was established in Turkey first, we thought they would offer an improved version of the EJ200 for Kaan.Later they offered an engine to be developed over the commercial Pearl engine. ,if I remember correctly .Do you think they propose to derive a new engine from a commercial engine like the SaM146 or do they offer an advanced m88?

 

[Nilgiri]

India is like WW1 Italy in my eyes .All the kidding aside what do you think is the path to follow for the development of the new engine.When the Rolls Royce-Kale partnership was established in Turkey first, we thought they would offer an improved version of the EJ200 for Kaan.Later they offered an engine to be developed over the commercial Pearl engine. ,if I remember correctly .Do you think they propose to derive a new engine from a commercial engine like the SaM146 or do they offer an advanced m88?

Safran cooperation/JV (w.r.t AMCA and AMCA mk2) probably oriented around the M88-4 (given whats unlocked here already with IAF Rafale) and also the future powerplant for the FCAS.

As to what the latter will be regarding taking core/elements from a civilian powerplant, its somewhat speculative for now....but there will likely be cross-flow given the size of the market there able to drive the RnD.

How the fruit from all that stacks up (in India specific case) against what GTRE is able to harness from and produce with the GE ecosystem kicking in remains to be seen.

Depends how willing each side (US , France) are willing to ramp up on gaps that India has currently and in the years to come...and what the terms/costs and realisation/time involved turn out like.

i.e Needs time to progress.

But these two countries are the ideal ones to "pit" against each other going forward (while at same time they have a large cooperation on civil side with CFM), the French have shown in the past they are willing to challenge (and even rebel against) the US in various degrees compared to say UK, Germany, Japan etc.

So this is probably why interest in cooperation with Rolls Royce, MTU etc has dropped lately from Indian side....and coalesced to US and France.

 

[fire starter]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1679911839747170304

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1679936938420350976