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Raptor

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How often western media criticizes India over Kashmir? How often western governments ban Indian companies and pass bills in their congress to condemn India over Kashmir? How often western government bring Kashmir issues to UN to discuss and mobilise the international community to condemn India?
You're smartly twisting my question and not answering
 

Raptor

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Xinjiang and Tibet will never be like Kashmir, China won't become India.
Yea and Xinjiang has no state beside it to continuously flow "militants" unlike kashmir,creating insurgency making the situation worse
 

BordoEnes

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Imma go ahead and piss of both the Pakistani's, Indians and apparently deluded Chinese by saying they most likely just want independence.
 

Jackdaws

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Imma go ahead and piss of both the Pakistani's, Indians and apparently deluded Chinese by saying they most likely just want independence.
A significant amount of them do, especially in the Kashmir Valley.
 

KKF 2.0

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A significant amount of them do, especially in the Kashmir Valley.

It's probably just a trick. If they ever get independence one day, they gonna unite with Pakistan the very next day - that's for sure. Kashmir's pro-Pakistan stance is not questioned by anyone who has a little knowledge of the conflict and the Kashmiri people.
 

Nilgiri

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Imma go ahead and piss of both the Pakistani's, Indians and apparently deluded Chinese by saying they most likely just want independence.

Can't talk about the other two groups....but you do not piss many Indians (at least at defence boards) saying so. We have taken far worse from far worse bias on the issue.

It is your right to have that impression (or any other), as we know how the media in general disseminates the information in various places.

But many of us know the longer deeper story and context....that most foreigners do not. Stuff like:

- 47-48 war
- what the kashmiris themselves did w.r.t 65 war (when infiltration+revolution 1 was attempted) beginnings
- Who this guy (Farooq abdullah)'s father was and his political role and context
- The role of the actual genocide in the region in East Pakistan (which is muslim majority place now called Bangladesh for a reason) w.r.t Kashmiri sentiments (and the above mention father of Farooq)
- What regular Kashmiris thought of the takfiri perpetrated on the above, and what it meant fundamentally to a muslim majoritarianism argument used by same hypocrites (who still have not apologised for what they did there in East Pakistan).
- What level of peace and integration was achieved till late 80s
- Why that ended in the late 80s w.r.t soviet withdrawal from afghanistan and who the interlocutor for militant terrorism in region clearly was, down to a T.

You (and many Turks) probably have similar reaction when a foreigner says "Gee the Kurds most likely just want independence from A B C or X Y Z...)....based on the media and filtered info flow they got on the context.

I mean even w.r.t Canada (one of the most developed countries in the world)....I would say 99% of people in world have no real context to base what the Quebec separatism even was....and what a 1995 vote for separation would have even meant (it was narrowly defeated, but there is 2 key issues ppl never talk about: turnout and federal non-recognition) and the wider context of last 100 years and more.

=======================================

But what reasonable (self-aware) members (with actual lives in the real world) do not do is play some game of being/larping like a morbidly obese hairy gorilla, thinking that by putting on a tutu, it is performing ballet.

One can see 2 sections in this forum w.r.t this (China and global)....where the apparent gorilla-argument is "world media is blah-biased so Imma spam the whole area here to counter it"....as though this place's volume setting is world media level size.

Then the related argument in other areas is what the world media is doing is unfair....so gorilla doesn't even realise it is asserting that doing a bad/unfair thing will fix the original bad/unfair thing. 2 bads make a right apparently, very high intelligent thought pattern....especially to commit this time and effort to.

Then every perceived slight is automatically taken in some extreme way....if you question/debate this and that....you are insulting the whole collective, so what are you? some IJA/nanjijng-apologist? (Then they blah blah at others times that East Asians are all this and that.....expanding their collective when it suits them)

They just have no basic self-register of how they come across, that is the issue. A boor that makes a mess of a place thinking it is refined....and just being "fair".

It would be the equivalent of me spamming videos and threads each say about Kashmiri people joining indian army or the many youtube videos with kashmiris with pro-india views etc etc....but I know people here have a basic BS detector and neither do I have the time or interest like most people to do that.

We just talk about it as it comes up for talking, like you Turks did with the bogazici protests etc.

Then the gaslighting always inevitably moves onto even more hypocrisy as required...."Science triumphs emotion" " I a totally rational, not impulsive at all" "please stay on topic" "DO as I say, not what I do" etc etc.... and then the ultimate one: clinging to free speech argument while the system it grew dependent on, attacks and hems that in as the first thing they ever did.

Such an individual takes no basic check on whether the image of China is being helped or harmed by the antics. Literally incapable of it...the gorilla has to DO the ballet you see....and you are supposed to clap and accept the wonderful performance.

They got dependent on the gaslighting present in their neck of the woods that has long inculcated something there...and they are literally unable to expand their narrow horizon beyond it.

They are like the Cardassians with Picard....asking him how many lights he sees...and is supposed to answer 5 instead of the 4 actually there (to show he is broken, defeated and submissive after capture and torture).

Or the other great sci-fi moment "Other systems? Fear of this Battle-station will keep them in line!". Then they make a demonstration of that on the uighurs....and you are just supposed to know its ok...and even be impressed at it....please prove your lackey level to the wisest of the wise middle kingdom.

This guy literally thinks satellite evidence of uighur camp size and scale (after PRC govt literally LIED that they dont exist at all) is some equivalent to Kashmir, Kurds and wherever/whatever else of fancy (tuned to forum/setting).

So they are trying to spread this honking volume wherever they go (you are just supposed to be ok with the honking level), and absolutely hate that nothing seems to fit hand in glove like it should be (and everyone hates the honking instead).

They hate that they only get sniffed out, ridiculed and get scorn on top for their "efforts". That adds to their misery and they double and triple down on the addiction and compulsion....in a way only a sociopath (way out of depth on something) knows how to.

Why can't you love us or accept us like the lying bad ABC-XYZ media??? WAAAAAH! (that we apparently love and accept of course cuz they sez so).

At least with a baby or toddler you can physically give em something to play with so they shut up for a while....what to do with this one though?

I was hoping one of the smart + reasonable ones (with a basic register of self awareness) would be the first to arrive here from that neck of the woods. I have come across a few in our earlier gathering. But even there they numbered maybe 3 or 4 out of a 100. They are just not so present in english speaking online world....really a pity.

Out of everyone here and even in earlier gathering, I really doubt most have had face to face time with han supremacists (unlike me, as I grew up right among them, just a much lower concentration than found on mainland).

Sai geuk mun the boors name in cantonese, he (haughty mainlander, stereotypical beijinger) doesn't even know what that rhymes with (something quite naughty which I wont say). I could have an immense amount of fun with this one (like hong kongers often do if you know cantonese - putonghua differences), but whats the point. Its a hollow vessel....and the agenda is predictable and boring to do it.

Most people grant them good faith argument or afford them some 1st principle way that they are used to in their society, I am long past it.

@Sinan @Deliorman @xenon5434 @Madokafc
 

Kaptaan

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It's probably just a trick. If they ever get independence one day, they gonna unite with Pakistan the very next day - that's for sure. Kashmir's pro-Pakistan stance is not questioned by anyone who has a little knowledge of the conflict and the Kashmiri people.
I think what has happened is the Kashmir Valley [almost all Muslim and which is ground zero for the troubles] they know the possibility of ever joining Pakistan is less than zero. Also along the way many have become disillusioned with Pakistan so vast majority would go for independance or loose confederation.

However be that as it may today most of these Kashmiri's absolutely despise India. This Farooq abdullah traditionally was a seen as New Delhi's man and a Quisling. What has really been telling recently is that the small percentage of pro India politicians have even turned against India. This was seen how the entire political class of Kashmir was placed in house arrest - this included parties that traitionally had been handmaidens of Indian rule in Kashmir.

The lockdown, internet shut down, media ban that went on for protracted period turning Kashmir into a vast open prison is actually evidence of how unpopular India is. With regards to the point about why Kashmiri's have not sought refuge in China the answer is simple. Unless they are alpine mountaineers or trekkers the geography militates against people movement into China from Kashmir.
 

Nilgiri

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Kashmir's pro-Pakistan stance is not questioned by anyone who has a little knowledge of the conflict and the Kashmiri people.

Yes you showed how little knowledge you have, good job.

We Indians are proud the kashmiris exposed Pak Army infiltrators in 1965.

Good "not questioning" don't you say?

The best+ most knowledgeable posters at PDF all admit this btw...a number even expand to say there is just no point to wage any more wars/insurgencies when kashmiris at high enough concentration simply do not want pakistan (again if you even know what happened in 1947 and who started it and why....which you obviously do not).

Oh wait they (PDF) silenced you lot....they have a lot of knowledge about your stuff/perspective too I guess.
 

Kaptaan

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For the Turks here please note there is absolutely no analogy between Kurds and Kashmiri's other than both being "Ks". Kashmir existed as a separate state when India came into existence on August 1947. Meaning when Indian Republic came into existence on August 1947 the State of Jammu & Kashmir continued to exist as a exogenous entity from India. Or you can State of Jammu & Kashmir existed well before Indian Repubic was establisahed.

The portion that India administers was according to the Indian POV was conjoined with India in October 1947 or two months after India came into existence. That was effected visa the Instrument of Accession and Kashmir was given special staus. This late entry to the Indian Republic and the special status alluded to Kashmir having a extraordinary existence. This status with it's provisions, like for example Indian's could NOT buy property in Kashmir clearly shows that comparing them to the Kurds in Turkey is disingenous and false.

I don't think there is a Kurdistan in Turkey, that it enjoyed special status within Turkey which gave it special privilages and Turks are NOT allowed to buy property in this Kurdistan. To top it all this Kurdistan is subject of UN resolutions.

From what I know Kurds areas have always been part of Turkey and never existed as separate legal entity enjoying special status with UN resolutions attached to it.
 
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Kaptaan

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We Indians are proud the kashmiris exposed Pak Army infiltrators in 1965.
Well it's 2020 and they are now recieving informed education from the Indian Army. They really ar enjoying exposure in what is widely described as "open prison".
 

Kaptaan

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Oh wait they (PDF) silenced you lot....they have a lot of knowledge about your stuff/perspective too I guess.
I am curious what has PDF got to do with discussion in hand. I get banned by PDf every week but all that says is about PDF. I can't use PDF as a way of informing the universe. PDF is just a bubble whose demography does not even reflect Pakistan.
 

Nilgiri

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Well it's 2020 and they are now recieving informed education from the Indian Army. They really ar enjoying exposure in what is widely described as "open prison".

We indeed are seeing remote sensing scale infrastructure to contain and re-educate them.

But I guess if you go far larger extreme scale, that wraps around to being ok on the human rights front...as seen by the mute silence on that from same people.

Is balochistan an open prison? I don't think so (there is such a thing as baloch politicians and genuine baloch representation in civil discourse), but it does have a large human rights problem too.

But neither compares to Xinjiang and the uighurs. That is off the scale...it can be seen from space what is being done.

Also w.r.t kurds, if the argument is kashmir was special status, I would point you again to the side that upset that to begin with (violating the stand-still agreement they signed earlier).


I am curious what has PDF got to do with discussion in hand. I get banned by PDf every week but all that says is about PDF. I can't use PDF as a way of informing the universe. PDF is just a bubble whose demography does not even reflect Pakistan.

The point is exactly as you describe it..... where to reference the "Way of informing". There is wide spectrum among some, there is not so wide spectrum among others....and every combination in between.

Thus we can put the best arguments we have forward, and let everyone decide and research for themselves if they are so inclined.
 

Jackdaws

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It's probably just a trick. If they ever get independence one day, they gonna unite with Pakistan the very next day - that's for sure. Kashmir's pro-Pakistan stance is not questioned by anyone who has a little knowledge of the conflict and the Kashmiri people.
Initially they might. But if the Punjabi elite of Pakistan is good at anything - it is pissing off ethnic minorities. Case in point - Mohajirs, Baloch, Sindhis. Don't know about Pashtuns. Bengali outnumbered the Punjabis but even they got fed up.
 

Jackdaws

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Pakistan and Iran took in millions of Afghan refugees, it doesn't neccessarily mean Pakistan and Iran are millions of times better countries than China, Japan and Korea, it's just because East Asian countries almost never accept foreign refugees and immigrants.
Nice to see you lump Afghanistan and China together as countries from which refugees seek to escape.
 

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