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Nilgiri

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All destroyer programs, news and updates for Indian Navy archived here henceforth (some old replies may still be found in general IN archive).
 

Tupolev16

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Good day, dear friends,
Could you kindly help me with one issue? Currently I am writing an article about "Rajput" class destroyers.
My questions is about the initial sonar's type on board of destroyers. All Russians sources say that the ships were given modern (by that time) "Platina" MGK-335 sonar (both hull mounted and towed). However, many others say that actually ships were armed with more obsolete hull mounted "Vychegda" MG -311 sonars and towed "Vega" Mg-325. The second opinion is given by Jane's Fighting Ships or http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active/181-Rajput-Class.html
Could anybody help with that?
Thank you in advance,
Tupolev16
 

Nilgiri

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Good day, dear friends,
Could you kindly help me with one issue? Currently I am writing an article about "Rajput" class destroyers.
My questions is about the initial sonar's type on board of destroyers. All Russians sources say that the ships were given modern (by that time) "Platina" MGK-335 sonar (both hull mounted and towed). However, many others say that actually ships were armed with more obsolete hull mounted "Vychegda" MG -311 sonars and towed "Vega" Mg-325. The second opinion is given by Jane's Fighting Ships or http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active/181-Rajput-Class.html
Could anybody help with that?
Thank you in advance,
Tupolev16

Hello there,

I believe Jane's and BR are correct to best of my knowledge.

USSR I believe elected for MGK-335/355 sonar in its Kashin-mod (or Kashin II) i.e MP modernisation as these became available via (successor) Sovremeny+Udaloy programs.

i.e the original 16 (pre-MP modernisation) also used the MG-311 (or its family) originally:


The modernizations included - installation of 4 launchers for SSM, new sonar "Platina" and replacement of the 2 RBU-1000 with 4 x 30mm AK-630. Also, special for Indian Navy was designed project 61ME (5 ships).

Example of one that was never modernised:


The destroyer was equipped with MG-312 Titan and MG-311 Vychegda sonar.[4][6]


So maybe the MGK-335 was not available for export quite at that point the 5 were made (with some added Indian requirements) for the Rajput-Class....as Russia also elected to use this more advanced sonar in their Sovremeny destroyer class if I am not mistaken.

This resource might help you further:


4. At the beginning of the 1970's a retrofit of the KASHIN Class /147 was decided; in this regard apparently the requirements for an improved ASW capability were the primary issue, while the increase in the armament was presumably of secondary importance, if they are not to be regarded merely as being the result of fortuitously available increase in space which could be exploited. The intended improved ASW capability did not depend upon the corresponding weapons systems - these were available from the beginning - but upon an upgrading of the ASW detection capability. Therefore, a VDS (Variable Depth Sonar) system was provided, for which reason the afterdeck had to be extended by over ca. 3 meters, because otherwise it would not have been sufficient to accommodate the VDS-chamber.

@anmdt @Joe Shearer
 

Tupolev16

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Dear Nilgiri,
Spasibo for your reply. Frankly, I tend to agree that early Kashin-2 were equipped with Vychegda/Vega rather than Platina.
Platina was set for production in 1975 and knowing Soviet habit of exporting of downgraded stuff, I suspect that in 1980 (Rajput induction) it was not a time to export Platina. Although, Ranvir in 1986 could have gotten it.
Effectively, Indian Kashins were based on the last (20th) serial Kashin for Soviet navy, which was an individual enlarged (N.B!) modification 61M . But Platina sonar came too late and was installed on the ship in 1975. Still, I read the complaints that Indian Kashins were more advances than Soviet ones. Plus, Poland got modified Kashin (one of 5 modernised similar to 61M and Indian Kashins) with Platina. But heck, it was in 1988 and already after Soviet service.
So, could it be that first 3 Indian Kashins got simplier sonars, while Ranvir subclass got Platina (along with more modern ASW helicopter)?
Also, one should remember that India was given modern Soviet weapons earlier than even Warsaw Pact allies (Mig-29 is a good example).
P.S. do I understand correctly that all Indian kashins are now armed with Humsa sonars?

Thank you in advance for sharing opinion and best wishes,
Tupolev16
 

Nilgiri

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Dear Nilgiri,
Spasibo for your reply.

You are most welcome. I anyway always enjoy an opportunity to delve into Soviet/Russian naval architecture/history. Quite a fascinating field in general....so I appreciated your enquiry.



Still, I read the complaints that Indian Kashins were more advances than Soviet ones.
Overall I would say they (Rajput-class) were more advanced in a number of departments like the ASW helicopter (that you mention as well).

If it was specifically regarding the Sonars, that would be most interesting and maybe there was indeed a progression here as well (it probably needs Indian navy person that was/is in the know on these matters, unavailable to me unfortunately).

There could be "variants" for both the earlier sonar and later sonar...i.e something of an interim somewhere in performance range between the two....hence leading to both being quoted depending on source.


So, could it be that first 3 Indian Kashins got simplier sonars, while Ranvir subclass got Platina (along with more modern ASW helicopter)?

It could be very possible. I personally have no way to confirm it for you. Let us see if any other members have something to say or add later.


P.S. do I understand correctly that all Indian kashins are now armed with Humsa sonars?

Yes HUMSA is now standard on these (and other Indian warships of similar size, new or upgraded) w.r.t the hull mounted (it stands for Hull Mounted Sonar Array after all).

I believe the variable-depth sonar is still the Russian original (Vyega MG-325).
 

Joe Shearer

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Dear Nilgiri,
Spasibo for your reply. Frankly, I tend to agree that early Kashin-2 were equipped with Vychegda/Vega rather than Platina.
Platina was set for production in 1975 and knowing Soviet habit of exporting of downgraded stuff, I suspect that in 1980 (Rajput induction) it was not a time to export Platina. Although, Ranvir in 1986 could have gotten it.
Effectively, Indian Kashins were based on the last (20th) serial Kashin for Soviet navy, which was an individual enlarged (N.B!) modification 61M . But Platina sonar came too late and was installed on the ship in 1975. Still, I read the complaints that Indian Kashins were more advances than Soviet ones. Plus, Poland got modified Kashin (one of 5 modernised similar to 61M and Indian Kashins) with Platina. But heck, it was in 1988 and already after Soviet service.
So, could it be that first 3 Indian Kashins got simplier sonars, while Ranvir subclass got Platina (along with more modern ASW helicopter)?
Also, one should remember that India was given modern Soviet weapons earlier than even Warsaw Pact allies (Mig-29 is a good example).
P.S. do I understand correctly that all Indian kashins are now armed with Humsa sonars?

Thank you in advance for sharing opinion and best wishes,
Tupolev16
I do hope you keep dropping in and contributing. It is an incentive to log in to read your posts.
 
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