Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

Indos

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I will put this article from Angkasa Magazine so people who dont understand what the actual development process will understand.

I will bring what happened during first phase of development that started in 2011


Translation from Google translate:

February 6, 2014 (Angkasa/Space Magazine)

KFX / IFX program continued , Government Asked to Immediately Selecting Design

Korea was once considered Indonesia engineer do not understand about the design of a jet fighter. But the notion was quickly turned , when the Indonesian team describes the design and the various inputs. The Indonesian side also the one who finally managed to convince that the aircraft take-off weight of 50,000 pounds must .

Confirmation of the Parliament of South Korea on the resumption of the program KFX / IFX team warmly welcomed designers from Indonesia. They include asking both governments immediately call the engineers involved in preparing work that has been long overdue. They also want the governments of both countries to make sure one of the two designs that have been produced in the Technology Development phase for cultivation in the next phase .

"Program KFX / IFX is a multi - program years , costly, and involve various sectors and foreign partners. For that there must be a definite declaration on it goes. For Indonesia it is important to determine the financing schemes and their human resources planning, "said Dr Rais Zain, M. Eng , KFX / IFX Configuration Design Leader for Angkasa , in late January.

"In the near future Indonesia will also work on the N219 and R - 80. We do not have enough engineers to work three programs, especially KFX / IFX will take place until the 2020s. The government is expected to call home engineers who are now working abroad to come help the regeneration process. Outside there are approximately 200 people . If half of it can be returned to the country, it is enough to help, " added Rais who is also a lecturer at the Faculty of Aerospace Engineering ITB, Bandung.

As reported by the national media, the confirmation of the continuation of the program of making front - liner Korean - Indonesian fighter jets received by the Ministry of Defense on January 3, 2014. Notice is further announced Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro told reporters, Wednesday, January 8, 2014, on the sidelines of Rapim Kemenhan in Jakarta. Explanations related to exposure delivered weapon system procurement plans in the Strategic Plan II, 2015-2019.

The Indonesian government hopes the project of making the 4.5 generation fighter jet could be done because it would be a referral program to remove the dependence of the transfer of technology from other countries. Besides KFX / IFX, Indonesia is also pursuing a program of making submarines , warships, propellants , rockets, and tank size medium. For submarines, Indonesia is also cooperating with the same country.

Superior to the Su - 35Program KFX / IFX was stopped temporarily by Korea's new leader Park Geun - Hye end of 2012 after reviewing the state financially in the country. This prestigious project was worked on since the beginning of 2011, shortly after President Lee Myung - bak and President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono confirmed the bilateral cooperation in the defense field in Jakarta. From the Technology Development Phase that has been completed, a team of scientists has completed a number of conical design that later became two.

The two designs is a model of the stealth fighter jet -winning twin-engine air superiority with horizontally - tails in the back, and the other one is with canards on the front. "Each has consequences different financing and partners. Thus , it must first be decided which one is selected. It is important that when followed, all parties are ready to do it , "said Rais Zain , whose day-to- day lecturer at the Faculty of Engineering, Aerospace Engineering,ITB, Bandung.

As stated Wamenhan Sjafrie, Korean parliament has prepared 20 million U.S. dollars (temporary , Indonesia : $ 5 million) to continue this program in 2015. At that time , the team will go to the Engineering Manufacturing Development Phase. In addition must have a high thrust engine with a power to be able to fight in the air, the aircraft must also have weapons stored in the internal weapons bay , the data - link capable of randomizing communications, advanced radar target voters, and anti - jamming device.

The prototype is expected to finish by the end of the Strategic Plan II . Even if there are things that need to be criticized , it is a matter of operation requirements are much more determined the Korean Air Force . This was inevitable because the Korean bear 80 percent of the funding, and the country actually have a real enemy. This program is targeted to spawn a jet fighter with performance equivalent or superior to the opponent fighter jets which are the Sukhoi Su - 35.

Prerequisites itself dismissed the proposed counter designs KAI ( Korean Aerospace Industrie) recently, rather than to cut development costs are too great. In configuration ( see Space, December 2013 ), looks KFX type E is only one engine powered with weapons outside the radar sweep prone opponent.

Angkasa examine admiration of ADD ( Agency for Defense Development, Defence Research and Development Agency of Korea ) submitted to the Indonesian engineer team. Initially, the team assumes Korea really had no idea about the design of Indonesian fighter jets.

However, the assumption was turned when Indonesian engineers began to describe the design and the various inputs to the design of Korea. The Indonesian side also who ultimately ensure that the aircraft must have a takeoff weight of 50,000 pounds.(A.Darmawan/Angkasa magazine).


http://www.angkasa.co.id/index.php/...tkan-pemerintah-diminta-segera-memilih-desain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is the most respected aerospace media in Indonesia but unfortunatelly they have erased that 2014 page but I have posted the translation in previous KFX/IFX thread in 2014 in other forum.


2011 news

11th July 2011

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - Indonesia is sending a KFX warplane production engineering team to South Korea as part of a cooperation agreement between the two nations to produce jet-fighters, a defense ministry official said here on Monday.

The team is composed of personnel from the Indonesian Air Force, Bandung-based Institute of Technology (ITB) and Indonesian aircraft maker PT Dirgantara Indonesia (DI).


(2012)

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Stuka Dive

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This argument is applicable to other fighters as well, not just F-16.

You call 6 squadrons of F-16 as gangs of wolves, so what about 6 squadrons of F-15EX, or 6 squadrons of Rafale, or 6 squadrons of Eurofighters? Gangs of Lions? Gangs of Bears? Gangs of badass motherfu**ers? :)

Heck, even 6 squadrons of Gripen (the most hated fighter in this forum LOL) will probably be our Gangs of Cheetahs :)



Now this is interesting since you're dragging (nyatut) TNI-AU name. Let's be honest, what's actually their wish? It's not even F-16 :)

You got me wrong, bro...
All these while I am not talking about fighter jets performance comparison. I am also not a sales guy to any manufacturers. The bottom line of my brainstorming is about the true transfer of technology, just like in the BJH's era.

The South Korean KF-21 is their 40 years of saga, not us. It's their generosity to us when they offered "technological transfer " concept as the a framework of KF-21 co-development. Well, generosity is the naive statement, actually it is a South Korean's marketing strategy called "Blue Ocean Strategy". They're not just selling competitive product, but also gave an added value to a customer like us : They're promoting themselves as an agent of change in developing our defense industries capability. You can see it in the case of Macassar class LPD, CBG subs, Badak panser, etc.

Nothing wrong with that as the KF-21 is also advance fighter. Nice to have the real deal of ToT like that. But, do we take it seriously? Yes, I believe all of our engineers took it very seriously. How about our politicians and bureaucrats ?

These long time delayed payment, possible cancelation of CBG, and so on, it may have impact their mood in transferring their technological capabilities. You can see French went crazy when aussy canceled their NG subs project. Still, the SK give their ways to continue the KF-21 project for us. Because it will be good to see us as the first foreign customer of their KF-21.

Now we talking back about our own road map, in developing fighter jet. Did we solely depends on a single program of KF-21? or we had plan B ?

Just for comparison, the German's Leo 2A MBTs family's was born from their plan B's road map. The plan A was co-develop with US got stalled in the middle since their concept is different. German had anticipated this possibility by plan B from KMW in parallel. When it stalled, German just continued on the plan B project became Leo's tank.

If we are unhappy about the ToT process as no access to some key technologies, or didn't have any IP rights in KF-21 at least we should have other option as plan B. Unless our leadership didn't so much care about our defense industries capability, just to have strong defense posture.

When I still can't see the light in this KF-21 program for us and on the other hands India has abandoned the F-21 program with LM ( the India's Viper " Make In India" version) I was wondering if we can get the similar program.

The plan A road map is to incorporated this F-21/F-16 V program with SK KF-21 program as both program had the LM's genetics. And the plan B road map is solely F-21/F-16V program with LM, in case of KF-21 co-development program got stall.

The F-16 airframe platform also has biggest consumer in the world, giving advantage if we want to build military fighter jet industry based on it. BJH always emphasized for market potential to build an industry, instead of self-consumed.

That is the reason behind those F-16 V "Make in Indonesia" story, nothing to do with wolves, lions, cheetah, etc comparison. ( And I do remember when Air Marshall Agus Supriatna told about TNI-AU preferences, he did mentioned about F-16 Viper too). If there are any option with high potential of ToT other than this F-16-V, why not? as my main emphasized is a truely ToT.

Don't get me wrong again, I am not kind of that over glorified boys whom satisfied with " Karya Anak Bangsa" tempel sticker or all other "after sales service maintenance" as ToT.

If you call me a BJH's fanatics then it's okay, at least what he did was the real saga in the making of our industrial capabilities from scratch to real things. I was also being stamped as lunatic defender of BJH's style ToT as a member of ARC mailing list group. Below is my writing in mailing list sometimes in 2006 and once been posted at ARC's web later on.


to have thorough concept explained by BJH, I also attached the english version as well as the bahasa version of his concept, based on his speech in Bonn, Germany.

I guess this is the time of posture building. While defense industries capability's building is just a "basa-basi" in order to fulfill "UU Kemandirian Alutsista", everything from "Tempel stiker" to repair/maintenance offset being called ToT....lol
 

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Chestnut

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Why would Lockheed Martin do this? They'll lose huge amount of money by giving us their technology and letting us producing our own F-16.

If we're serious about ToT stuff, for a country like us, I'm afraid the US is the last country you'd want to go to.
How so? The US has clearly shown it is willing to give ToT to countries that buy their products. Look at Korea, Japan, Turkey, India, Israel, Taiwan, etc.


It's rather simple. Why would we want to waste huge amount of money to buy 80 F-16? That would be stupid.
And why is that? The Block 70/72 is an advanced fighter that is on par/supersedes a lot of other designs. The Viper is also already locally supported and we have the training and knowhow to operate and maintain them. If anything it is THE only choice that isn't a waste of money.
 

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Are we continue or ghosted it?

We are still in renegotiation, I dont want to reveal current situation in term of political backing on this program, but we are not a prick either. Regardless of that, the present of Jokowi during roll out event is a positive indication over our future involvement on this program.

Bonus: Indonesian KF21/IFX engineers during roll out event, representing 116 engineers who are involved in the program during design phase.

1633241565778.png

1633241584075.png
 

NEKO

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You got me wrong, bro...
All these while I am not talking about fighter jets performance comparison. I am also not a sales guy to any manufacturers. The bottom line of my brainstorming is about the true transfer of technology, just like in the BJH's era.

The South Korean KF-21 is their 40 years of saga, not us. It's their generosity to us when they offered "technological transfer " concept as the a framework of KF-21 co-development. Well, generosity is the naive statement, actually it is a South Korean's marketing strategy called "Blue Ocean Strategy". They're not just selling competitive product, but also gave an added value to a customer like us : They're promoting themselves as an agent of change in developing our defense industries capability. You can see it in the case of Macassar class LPD, CBG subs, Badak panser, etc.

Nothing wrong with that as the KF-21 is also advance fighter. Nice to have the real deal of ToT like that. But, do we take it seriously? Yes, I believe all of our engineers took it very seriously. How about our politicians and bureaucrats ?

These long time delayed payment, possible cancelation of CBG, and so on, it may have impact their mood in transferring their technological capabilities. You can see French went crazy when aussy canceled their NG subs project. Still, the SK give their ways to continue the KF-21 project for us. Because it will be good to see us as the first foreign customer of their KF-21.

Now we talking back about our own road map, in developing fighter jet. Did we solely depends on a single program of KF-21? or we had plan B ?

Just for comparison, the German's Leo 2A MBTs family's was born from their plan B's road map. The plan A was co-develop with US got stalled in the middle since their concept is different. German had anticipated this possibility by plan B from KMW in parallel. When it stalled, German just continued on the plan B project became Leo's tank.

If we are unhappy about the ToT process as no access to some key technologies, or didn't have any IP rights in KF-21 at least we should have other option as plan B. Unless our leadership didn't so much care about our defense industries capability, just to have strong defense posture.

When I still can't see the light in this KF-21 program for us and on the other hands India has abandoned the F-21 program with LM ( the India's Viper " Make In India" version) I was wondering if we can get the similar program.

The plan A road map is to incorporated this F-21/F-16 V program with SK KF-21 program as both program had the LM's genetics. And the plan B road map is solely F-21/F-16V program with LM, in case of KF-21 co-development program got stall.

The F-16 airframe platform also has biggest consumer in the world, giving advantage if we want to build military fighter jet industry based on it. BJH always emphasized for market potential to build an industry, instead of self-consumed.

That is the reason behind those F-16 V "Make in Indonesia" story, nothing to do with wolves, lions, cheetah, etc comparison. ( And I do remember when Air Marshall Agus Supriatna told about TNI-AU preferences, he did mentioned about F-16 Viper too). If there are any option with high potential of ToT other than this F-16-V, why not? as my main emphasized is a truely ToT.

Don't get me wrong again, I am not kind of that over glorified boys whom satisfied with " Karya Anak Bangsa" tempel sticker or all other "after sales service maintenance" as ToT.

If you call me a BJH's fanatics then it's okay, at least what he did was the real saga in the making of our industrial capabilities from scratch to real things. I was also being stamped as lunatic defender of BJH's style ToT as a member of ARC mailing list group. Below is my writing in mailing list sometimes in 2006 and once been posted at ARC's web later on.


to have thorough concept explained by BJH, I also attached the english version as well as the bahasa version of his concept, based on his speech in Bonn, Germany.

I guess this is the time of posture building. While defense industries capability's building is just a "basa-basi" in order to fulfill "UU Kemandirian Alutsista", everything from "Tempel stiker" to repair/maintenance offset being called ToT....lol
There is not much budget, there is not many cards to play.
Even the budget for acquisition project is just so-so until recently, the RnD budget is way smaller, and allocating billions of $ for RnD for plan B? Hm... nope.
 

Stuka Dive

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There is not much budget, there is not many cards to play.
Even the budget for acquisition project is just so-so until recently, the RnD budget is way smaller, and allocating billions of $ for RnD for plan B? Hm... nope.
Like I said...this is not the timing for it, this time is just to focus in defense posture building...
maybe on the next administration...
 

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The KFX/IFX program is also good to create ecosystem in our education in term of Stealth jet fighter design and development. Bandung Institute of Technology (ITB) is also part of KFX/IFX program, so the lectures there who are part of the program can pass the knowledge and experience to the students. Some senior engineers who has Master and Phd degree in Indonesia Aerospace and part of KFX program also some will likely teach in ITB as being a lectures provide more independency and freedom that many professional like and prefer when they are getting really old.

It is not just Aerospace Engineers who are graduated from Aeronautica faculty who are part of the ecosystem, but also the ones with specialty in engine, electronics, and even physics, just like young engineers in N219 that we saw in recent video.

I dont know many KF21/IFX engineers, but the young engineer that I know part of the program is now already getting Master Degree in Aerospace, Aeronautical and Astronautical engineering from ITB that he gets after he come back from Korea in May 2020. Some young engineers who has more free time after May 2020 look like getting scholarship or maybe some use their own money to upgrade their knowledge. His bachelor degree is Physics.
 
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Parry Brima

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You got me wrong, bro...
All these while I am not talking about fighter jets performance comparison. I am also not a sales guy to any manufacturers. The bottom line of my brainstorming is about the true transfer of technology, just like in the BJH's era.

The South Korean KF-21 is their 40 years of saga, not us. It's their generosity to us when they offered "technological transfer " concept as the a framework of KF-21 co-development. Well, generosity is the naive statement, actually it is a South Korean's marketing strategy called "Blue Ocean Strategy". They're not just selling competitive product, but also gave an added value to a customer like us : They're promoting themselves as an agent of change in developing our defense industries capability. You can see it in the case of Macassar class LPD, CBG subs, Badak panser, etc.

Nothing wrong with that as the KF-21 is also advance fighter. Nice to have the real deal of ToT like that. But, do we take it seriously? Yes, I believe all of our engineers took it very seriously. How about our politicians and bureaucrats ?

These long time delayed payment, possible cancelation of CBG, and so on, it may have impact their mood in transferring their technological capabilities. You can see French went crazy when aussy canceled their NG subs project. Still, the SK give their ways to continue the KF-21 project for us. Because it will be good to see us as the first foreign customer of their KF-21.

Now we talking back about our own road map, in developing fighter jet. Did we solely depends on a single program of KF-21? or we had plan B ?

Just for comparison, the German's Leo 2A MBTs family's was born from their plan B's road map. The plan A was co-develop with US got stalled in the middle since their concept is different. German had anticipated this possibility by plan B from KMW in parallel. When it stalled, German just continued on the plan B project became Leo's tank.

If we are unhappy about the ToT process as no access to some key technologies, or didn't have any IP rights in KF-21 at least we should have other option as plan B. Unless our leadership didn't so much care about our defense industries capability, just to have strong defense posture.

When I still can't see the light in this KF-21 program for us and on the other hands India has abandoned the F-21 program with LM ( the India's Viper " Make In India" version) I was wondering if we can get the similar program.

The plan A road map is to incorporated this F-21/F-16 V program with SK KF-21 program as both program had the LM's genetics. And the plan B road map is solely F-21/F-16V program with LM, in case of KF-21 co-development program got stall.

The F-16 airframe platform also has biggest consumer in the world, giving advantage if we want to build military fighter jet industry based on it. BJH always emphasized for market potential to build an industry, instead of self-consumed.

That is the reason behind those F-16 V "Make in Indonesia" story, nothing to do with wolves, lions, cheetah, etc comparison. ( And I do remember when Air Marshall Agus Supriatna told about TNI-AU preferences, he did mentioned about F-16 Viper too). If there are any option with high potential of ToT other than this F-16-V, why not? as my main emphasized is a truely ToT.

Don't get me wrong again, I am not kind of that over glorified boys whom satisfied with " Karya Anak Bangsa" tempel sticker or all other "after sales service maintenance" as ToT.

If you call me a BJH's fanatics then it's okay, at least what he did was the real saga in the making of our industrial capabilities from scratch to real things. I was also being stamped as lunatic defender of BJH's style ToT as a member of ARC mailing list group. Below is my writing in mailing list sometimes in 2006 and once been posted at ARC's web later on.


to have thorough concept explained by BJH, I also attached the english version as well as the bahasa version of his concept, based on his speech in Bonn, Germany.

I guess this is the time of posture building. While defense industries capability's building is just a "basa-basi" in order to fulfill "UU Kemandirian Alutsista", everything from "Tempel stiker" to repair/maintenance offset being called ToT....lol

Precisely. This is very important. If you want to build fighter production capacity (including the required ToT) you have to use industrial calculation. You can't use argument like "gangs of wolves" or some tendentious sales pitch that's been sprouted by some members here.

The best option is obviously the one that potentially giving us more sales decades in the future. So the relevant future technology is important. The money should be invested in the license/ToT that can give us leverage in building something with potential future technology. We should be 100% relevant in the year 2070. That's pretty much when the batch of new fighters of 2025-2030 in the world will be retired.

The next thing is the market that you want to target. You don't want to acquire the fighter technology that will cost the market too expensive to buy. That will limit your market.

I'm too lazy to type more so at least those two items should be taken into consideration. Does KFX meet those two criteria? Definitely yes. It has clear development path to 5th gen which will mostly still be relevant in 2070. It also has competitive price ($70 mil).
 

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Precisely. This is very important. If you want to build fighter production capacity (including the required ToT) you have to use industrial calculation. You can't use argument like "gangs of wolves" or some tendentious sales pitch that's been sprouted by some members here.

The best option is obviously the one that potentially giving us more sales decades in the future. So the relevant future technology is important. The money should be invested in the license/ToT that can give us leverage in building something with potential future technology. We should be 100% relevant in the year 2070. That's pretty much when the batch of new fighters of 2025-2030 in the world will be retired.

The next thing is the market that you want to target. You don't want to acquire the fighter technology that will cost the market too expensive to buy. That will limit your market.

I'm too lazy to type more so at least those two items should be taken into consideration. Does KFX meet those two criteria? Definitely yes. It has clear development path to 5th gen which will mostly still be relevant in 2070. It also has competitive price ($70 mil).

KAI, the Air Force and the South Korean National Institute of Science and Technology plan to develop sixth-generation technologies to address threats beyond 2035, many of which will be incorporated into the KF-21 Boramae.

While the KF-21 Boramae is a very new 4.5 Gen fighter, which had its rollout this year, it was designed from the ground up with the ability to evolve to achieve the capabilities of 5th Gen dot aircraft such as the F-35 and the F-22.

 

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KAI, the Air Force and the South Korean National Institute of Science and Technology plan to develop sixth-generation technologies to address threats beyond 2035, many of which will be incorporated into the KF-21 Boramae.

While the KF-21 Boramae is a very new 4.5 Gen fighter, which had its rollout this year, it was designed from the ground up with the ability to evolve to achieve the capabilities of 5th Gen dot aircraft such as the F-35 and the F-22.


That's even better. To be involved in 5th + 6th gen fighter production could give us more leverage in the market decades to come. We should get the license/ToT for it. There's no two ways about it, if we're serious about building our fighter production capacity we must get the potential future technology.

We have to keep in mind that the cost is super expensive. 80 jets probably equals to about $6 bil-$7 bil. That's only the cost to acquire the technology. We haven't talked about the cost to build the infrastructure, machinery, tooling, etc. We might need to sell 100+ jets to get our investment back (excluding the 80 that we have to buy of course). If we decided to lower the price to be more competitive in the market, we might even need to sell 150+ jets to reach BEP.

Now how are we gonna sell 150+ jets of past technology like F-16 in 2070? That would probably be akin to produce and sell Mig-21 in 2021. That's why I called it stupid. And definitely hilarious :ROFLMAO:
 

Madokafc

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Somewhat hilarious comment

The project will produce the KFX/IFX fighter, which is called a "4.5-generation" combatant aircraft, as opposed to the U.S. Lockheed Martin fifth-generation stealth Lightning-II F-35 fighter.

The KFX/IFX' s fighter's abilities are designed to be more advanced than the U.S.-built Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon jet aircraft. The KFX/IFX fighter jets will eventually be designated the F-33, with a capability slightly below the F-35.


fifth generation? Sixth generation? Wake up lah that's not going happened
 

Indos

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That's even better. To be involved in 5th + 6th gen fighter production could give us more leverage in the market decades to come. We should get the license/ToT for it. There's no two ways about it, if we're serious about building our fighter production capacity we must get the potential future technology.

We have to keep in mind that the cost is super expensive. 80 jets probably equals to about $6 bil-$7 bil. That's only the cost to acquire the technology. We haven't talked about the cost to build the infrastructure, machinery, tooling, etc. We might need to sell 100+ jets to get our investment back (excluding the 80 that we have to buy of course). If we decided to lower the price to be more competitive in the market, we might even need to sell 150+ jets to reach BEP.

Now how are we gonna sell 150+ jets of past technology like F-16 in 2070? That would probably be akin to produce and sell Mig-21 in 2021. That's why I called it stupid. And definitely hilarious :ROFLMAO:

Dont forget KF21 wingman as well. If one KF21 is accompanied with 3 Wingman drone just like the video made by DAPA Korea, so it will bring a lot of sales if PTDI also develop their wingman drone for KF21.

We are not talking about 50 IFX, I expect we are going to buy around 150-200 IFX as after Minimum Essential Force is completed, the next program is, inshaAllah, Essential Force and I am quite optimist with our economic future, more over after energy crisis hit China in the time we are going to implement RCEP deal.

I see investment growth will likely to be quite fast starting next year since Indonesia has both coal and future energy source material (nikel). Country that has the ability to secure its energy demand and with relatively competitive labor cost in the region will likely be prioritized by foreign investors. This is also accompanied with supportive law like Omnibus Law which is just started being implemented since September ( dimulai dari peraturan turunannya)
 

morningstar

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This is also accompanied with supportive law like Omnibus Law which is just started being implemented since September ( dimulai dari peraturan turunannya)
Don't talk about it, leftists alerta-alerta university students and buruh-tani unions will hate you wkwk
 

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happy TNI anniversary.
View attachment 32930
Ahh nice pict.

Reminds me with F 16V, Gripen, and Wedgetail poster back then.

And ended up silence 😂
Anyhow, my regard to the poster designer.

Or, please sell that god damn plane to us, we have no stick to defend our stuff from the fierce dragon !!!
 

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