Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Ravager]

Greeds ... They're too greedy it pissed the pakde's off .

I will erasing this in 5 minutes

 

[Umigami]

Greeds ... They're too greedy it pissed the pakde's off .

I will erasing this in 5 minutes

No need to.

Too bad for seems like 08 administration will have Pakde taste on it.

 

[satria]

I don't understand about one thing, if the problem is we didn't get much ToT from KFX because of US restrictions, why didn't SoKor offer us something else?

Like giving Indonesia production orders for some components perhaps.

actualy this idea what RI want so much, more tech n productions

 

[satria]

actualy this idea what RI want so much, more tech n productions

Jokowi always tell to build weapon as investment, not asembly n brand it as karya anak bangsa ...IMO, Sokor think we should pay more for that , because our share not that big ...

 

[Umigami]

Well, it's just to have them in our arsenal, just buy them as a regular customer is enough.

 

[Windchime]

Bro ...the pacific war has allready commenced by the time boramae reaching their LRP ..

Stop clowning . KF-21 LRIP starts next year, duh.

If we're talking about stealth fighter, then go for the true and mature one. Not Boramae.

F35 is the way

Correct, if you want 5th gen stealth fighter, F-35 is the way, but only if US wants to sell you that plane. So far they've only supplied them to SoKor, Japan, Singapore and Australia in the APAC region. It's very easy to see the common theme in play here.

 

[Windchime]

I don't understand about one thing, if the problem is we didn't get much ToT from KFX because of US restrictions, why didn't SoKor offer us something else?

Like giving Indonesia production orders for some components perhaps.

Regarding this "ToT not fulfilled due to US restrictions" thing, so far I've only seen them as an excuse from the Indonesian side to not commit to the program, and that again not from those who are directly involved with the IF-X program (ie. PTDI engineers and managers), but just merely from military fans and some media on internet.

If anything, I'm extremely pessimistic that Korea would've agreed to provide Indonesia what they don't own/have control over when both coutries signed the basic agreement in 2014.

Also, the scope of Indonesian involvement is very well known. ID engineers and military personnel participated in project definition stage studies and are part of the KF-X IF-X structural design team.

So it's obvious to think that a ToT agreement would be covering aircraft structural and aerodynamic design or related works. How are you going to transfer technology from the sector where Indonesian engineers are not involved in? ToT of advanced technology doesn't work in such way that you just sends some copies of technical documents via Email and voilà! You've transferred technology. No.

And talking about aerostructure, material and aerodynamic designs, no, there's little restriction from the US on this front. Most US restriction lies on the avionics, and flight controls, which Korea were transferred technologies of from the US as an offset for F-X program. Then again, a lot of critical avionics were developed in Korea without US involvement because they've also denied ToT on those technologies.

So there are some good reasons for me to not believe these rumors about "ToTs denied due to US resctrictions".

Another reason to think this way is because Indonesia was supposed to supply certain aerostructures for the whole KF-X/IF-X fleet under the contract originally agreed upon. They would've received ToT on advanced metal and composite aerostructure design, manufacturing and quality control, and these aerostructures were for an aircraft they had no experience with beforehand (it is supersonic and it's a maneuverable fighter. Very different from transport aircraft ID aerospace sector has experience with). They would have set up the production facility with adequate tooling and equipments (which they've abandoned mid-way), based on relevant data and and blueprints they've received for production. Some KAI personnel would've been sent to PTDI to help out the process, and PTDI would've built some pre-production samples, which would have been manufactured and sent to Korea for tests and qualifications, feedbacks would've been exchanged and necessary technologies transferred. and they would've in the end been part of KF-21 and IF-X production.

Now all of those aerostructures have been confirmed of being produced in Korea, either by KAI or its subcontractors. Not to mention that there was no ToT of manufacturing techniques or production engineering because there was no commitment on the ID side. So don't blame KR for "not receiving ToT" or "not sharing production", when the reason there was no transfer of technology to begin with was because the prerequisites weren't even fulfilled in the first place.

Also, don't forget the prototype that was supposed to be transferred to Indonesia. A good chunk of Indonesian share was for the aircraft cost itself, of prototype no.5. With this prototype PTDI was supposed to develop and certify Indonesian configurations with alteration to certain parts of the overall aircraft system. The change would not have been big, but it was definitely going to be a stepping stone for learning more complex aircraft system design in the future for PTDI. KAI personnel again were supposed to help this process in ID and would've involved ToT.

So if you say that ToT has not been fulfilled, sure it would not have been, and rightfully so. Though we shouldn't mix up what comes first and what comes after.

 

[norman88]

Regarding this "ToT not fulfilled due to US restrictions" thing, so far I've only seen them as an excuse from the Indonesian side to not commit to the program, and that again not from those who are directly involved with the IF-X program (ie. PTDI engineers and managers), but just merely from military fans and some media on internet.

If anything, I'm extremely pessimistic that Korea would've agreed to provide Indonesia what they don't own/have control over when both coutries signed the basic agreement in 2014.

Also, the scope of Indonesian involvement is very well known. ID engineers and military personnel participated in project definition stage studies and are part of the KF-X IF-X structural design team.

So it's obvious to think that a ToT agreement would be covering aircraft structural and aerodynamic design or related works. How are you going to transfer technology from the sector where Indonesian engineers are not involved in? ToT of advanced technology doesn't work in such way that you just sends some copies of technical documents via Email and voilà! You've transferred technology. No.

And talking about aerostructure, material and aerodynamic designs, no, there's little restriction from the US on this front. Most US restriction lies on the avionics, and flight controls, which Korea were transferred technologies of from the US as an offset for F-X program. Then again, a lot of critical avionics were developed in Korea without US involvement because they've also denied ToT on those technologies.

So there are some good reasons for me to not believe these rumors about "ToTs denied due to US resctrictions".

Another reason to think this way is because Indonesia was supposed to supply certain aerostructures for the whole KF-X/IF-X fleet under the contract originally agreed upon. They would've received ToT on advanced metal and composite aerostructure design, manufacturing and quality control, and these aerostructures were for an aircraft they had no experience with beforehand (it is supersonic and it's a maneuverable fighter. Very different from transport aircraft ID aerospace sector has experience with). They would have set up the production facility with adequate tooling and equipments (which they've abandoned mid-way), based on relevant data and and blueprints they've received for production. Some KAI personnel would've been sent to PTDI to help out the process, and PTDI would've built some pre-production samples, which would have been manufactured and sent to Korea for tests and qualifications, feedbacks would've been exchanged and necessary technologies transferred. and they would've in the end been part of KF-21 and IF-X production.

Now all of those aerostructures have been confirmed of being produced in Korea, either by KAI or its subcontractors. Not to mention that there was no ToT of manufacturing techniques or production engineering because there was no commitment on the ID side. So don't blame KR for "not receiving ToT" or "not sharing production", when the reason there was no transfer of technology to begin with was because the prerequisites weren't even fulfilled in the first place.

Also, don't forget the prototype that was supposed to be transferred to Indonesia. A good chunk of Indonesian share was for the aircraft cost itself, of prototype no.5. With this prototype PTDI was supposed to develop and certify Indonesian configurations with alteration to certain parts of the overall aircraft system. The change would not have been big, but it was definitely going to be a stepping stone for learning more complex aircraft system design in the future for PTDI. KAI personnel again were supposed to help this process in ID and would've involved ToT.

So if you say that ToT has not been fulfilled, sure it would not have been, and rightfully so. Though we shouldn't mix up what comes first and what comes after.

The reason is really just one, dissatisfaction from the Indonesian side. According to Indonesia, the programme does not benefit them, that's why there is a proposal for the addition of some TOT.

However, Korea seems unwilling to provide additional TOT to Indonesia (and Korea has the right to refuse it).

And so far, the two sides have not been able to reach an agreement.

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1715631697700745474

 

[Windchime]

The reason is really just one, dissatisfaction from the Indonesian side. According to Indonesia, the programme does not benefit them, that's why there is a proposal for the addition of some TOT.

However, Korea seems unwilling to provide additional TOT to Indonesia (and Korea has the right to refuse it).

And so far, the two sides have not been able to reach an agreement.

That's very obvious for everyone at this point. Though the thing is, then ID should stay truthful to what their intentions are. When ID stopped the payment of their contributions pre-pandemic, the official reason they've communicated to the Korean counterpart was "fiscal constraints". Once Covid started, that changed to "fiscal constraints caused by the pandemic". That was also the reason the renegotiation was concerning the details of how Indonesia was going to financially continue it's participation in the program. TNI buying bunch of new fighter jets proved that this "financial constraint" is actually not the true reason.

See, the current agreements between the two countries, that are based on the basic agreement signed on 2014 and renegotiated in 2020, are a framework both countries agreed upon. If you want to clap, you need both hands. ID, at least at the time, fully understood what they are signing up for and was willing to participate. If they've changed their mind, that's fine, but then they have to understand that the liability falls on them. ID side (of the program management) clearly knows that they would not be able to recoup the $200+ million they've already invested into the program if they quit it on their own. They also know (although the general ID public doesn't seem to know) that there's a due date until which the payment should be completed, which is written into the contract. If not fulfilled, Korea could terminate the contract without any liabilities. Of course they'd know, since that's the contract they've signed themselves, and that's why they are trying to show some gestures that they are still willing to continue their particiapation in the program by again starting to pay small sum.

Now the aircraft's flying and will enter LRIP right next year. Korea's definitely not in the position to hurry. Some ID sources imputing Korea for not fulfilling ToT as agreed in the contract, in order to explain Indonesian reluctance to the program, well, they can do so all they want, but what's actually the case doesn't change. Currently it's very clear that the liability doesn't fall on the Korean side.

All I've wrote on the post above is just making this clear. If Indonesians wants to discuss if IF-X is truly worth it, that would be a productive conversation. If someone argues that buying additional Rafales with the same money is better for Indonesian national interests, I might agree. Though most of the times, all I see is all these he-said she-said regarding the details of the program without any concrete source or evidence to back it up.

 

[Windchime]

The only way Indonesia could actually obtain more experience, ToT and production share compared to in IF-X is by running their own program and be on the driver's seat. In KF-X IF-X program it was very clear from the start that ID would be a junior partner.

Such Indonesia-centric program could vary from a fighter based on existing design (eg: IAI Kfir and Mitsubishi F-2) to a new design with heavy foreign input (IAI Lavi, KAI T-50, ADIC F-CK-1). The problem is obviously the cost.

During the earlier days of KF-X, KF-X based on existing design was seriously considered as an option. Boeing offered a Super Hornet based design, while EADS offered Eurofighter as a base model. LM offered a a F-16-based fighter which went the furthest, and it was supposed to be equipped with Korean avionics and flight controls system. Projected development cost was around $5.4 billion in then exchange rate. This is around 5 times what Indonesia is supposed to financially contribute in the IF-X framework. This is also excluding weapons integration program, which was projected to cost additional $500 million, so the overall development cost was envisioned to be around $6 billion in total. Even then, this option was considered the least probable since LM and the US would hold significant control over the final product.

Also, now with all the inflation and very strong Dollar/Euro trend that is continuing since the endemic, it simply would be wishful thinking that a joint development program based on existing design would cost only as much. Not to mention, at the time LM made the offer, Korea already had developed T-50 and its variants, as well as military electronics and avionics that could trickle down to the KF-X program. Frankly, ID has no such program of record and this would mean that large part of avionics would need to be sourced from abroad.

With that in mind, it is absolutely baffling that some Indonesians think that they could demand more production share, ToT and independent export rights while bearing fraction of the cost compared to what and indigenous program would cost them. Everything comes with a cost.

If the development cost for a derivative fighter based on existing design was already a lot, forget about a clean-sheet design. Even with significant foreign input, it is even more expensive and requires higher level or industry sophistication and domestic technological basis. Even SAAB sourced a huge part of Gripen avionics from foreign suppliers and outsourced certain structural designs, such as outsourcing main wing design to Akaer.

 

[norman88]

The only way Indonesia could actually obtain more experience, ToT and production share compared to in IF-X is by running their own program and be on the driver's seat. In KF-X IF-X program it was very clear from the start that ID would be a junior partner.

Such Indonesia-centric program could vary from a fighter based on existing design (eg: IAI Kfir and Mitsubishi F-2) to a new design with heavy foreign input (IAI Lavi, KAI T-50, ADIC F-CK-1). The problem is obviously the cost.

During the earlier days of KF-X, KF-X based on existing design was seriously considered as an option. Boeing offered a Super Hornet based design, while EADS offered Eurofighter as a base model. LM offered a a F-16-based fighter which went the furthest, and it was supposed to be equipped with Korean avionics and flight controls system. Projected development cost was around $5.4 billion in then exchange rate. This is around 5 times what Indonesia is supposed to financially contribute in the IF-X framework. This is also excluding weapons integration program, which was projected to cost additional $500 million, so the overall development cost was envisioned to be around $6 billion in total. Even then, this option was considered the least probable since LM and the US would hold significant control over the final product.

Also, now with all the inflation and very strong Dollar/Euro trend that is continuing since the endemic, it simply would be wishful thinking that a joint development program based on existing design would cost only as much. Not to mention, at the time LM made the offer, Korea already had developed T-50 and its variants, as well as military electronics and avionics that could trickle down to the KF-X program. Frankly, ID has no such program of record and this would mean that large part of avionics would need to be sourced from abroad.

With that in mind, it is absolutely baffling that some Indonesians think that they could demand more production share, ToT and independent export rights while bearing fraction of the cost compared to what and indigenous program would cost them. Everything comes with a cost.

If the development cost for a derivative fighter based on existing design was already a lot, forget about a clean-sheet design. Even with significant foreign input, it is even more expensive and requires higher level or industry sophistication and domestic technological basis. Even SAAB sourced a huge part of Gripen avionics from foreign suppliers and outsourced certain structural designs, such as outsourcing main wing design to Akaer.

In fact, Indonesia is quite capable to produce some avionics components.

Infoglobal

www.infoglobal.co.id

Many of Infoglobal's products have been successfully integrated into various types of aircraft such as the Hawk 100/200, the F5 Tiger, the C-130 Hercules, etc.

And this is the cockpit mock-up of the KF/IFX designed by Infoglobal.

Actually, Infoglobal wanted to participate in the KF/IFX program to produce some avionics components, but there are rumors that the Korean side rejected it.

"We have about 15% ownership. But there are 9 technologies that are controlled by Korea that we are not given, not allowed," (Sakti Wahyu Trenggono, Deputy Minister of Defense)

Ternyata Ini yang Bikin RI Tak Happy Bikin Jet Tempur KFX

Kerja sama Indonesia - Korea Selatan (Korsel) mengenai pengembangan jet tempur KF-X dikabarkan retak.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Ironically, Indonesia is said to be getting the AESA radar TOT in the Rafale purchase.

Transfer of Technology: A Strategic Partnership in Defence Investment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------DisclaimerThis video is a property of PT Semar Sentin...

www.youtube.com

 

[Windchime]

In fact, Indonesia is quite capable to produce some avionics components.

Infoglobal

www.infoglobal.co.id

Many of Infoglobal's products have been successfully integrated into various types of aircraft such as the Hawk 100/200, the F5 Tiger, the C-130 Hercules, etc.

And this is the cockpit mock-up of the KF/IFX designed by Infoglobal.

Actually, Infoglobal wanted to participate in the KF/IFX program to produce some avionics components, but there are rumors that the Korean side rejected it.

"We have about 15% ownership. But there are 9 technologies that are controlled by Korea that we are not given, not allowed," (Sakti Wahyu Trenggono, Deputy Minister of Defense)

Ternyata Ini yang Bikin RI Tak Happy Bikin Jet Tempur KFX

Kerja sama Indonesia - Korea Selatan (Korsel) mengenai pengembangan jet tempur KF-X dikabarkan retak.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Ironically, Indonesia is said to be getting the AESA radar TOT in the Rafale purchase.

Transfer of Technology: A Strategic Partnership in Defence Investment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------DisclaimerThis video is a property of PT Semar Sentin...

www.youtube.com

I am fully aware of Infoglobal and their activity in their relative fields. When you say that ID is "quite capable in producing some avionic components", yeah of course they could be, but it's clear as a daylight that a cockpit display unit or video processor LRU are not the same as an AESA radar or avionics system backbones like a mission computer. Again, ID doesn't have relative program of record and there's no denying in that there's no sufficient Indonesian capability in this field.

Also, Koreans rejecting Infoglobal cockpit systems for IF-X again is merely a rumor, he-said she-said without a concrete source. Even if true, we don't even know the details regarding why it was rejected, so the point is simply moot.

Add to that, yeah, no wonder some technologies are not going to be transferred to Indonesia. What the CNBC ID interview mentions doesn't refute anything I've said. Again, it's meaningless unless he clarifies which technology he's talking about. Is it the technology that was supposed to be transferred to ID under the basic program agreement signed in 2014? If yes, it's a big problem, but there's not a single line mentioning if it is or not. If he's simply complaining that Korea isn't sharing critical technologies that weren't even supposed to be shared in the first place under the framework agreement, yeah no shit. That's what you've signed up for. It wouldn't hold any water.

An "AESA radar ToT" could mean a lot of things. It's pretty clear that France/Thales isn't transferring the whole RBE2 radar technical data or technology. A power supply LRU related technology and radar signal processing LRU or antenna unit/TRM related technology are both "AESA radar ToT", but their significance varies by a huge margin. Even if they are transferring technologies related to critical LRUs, there's a huge caveat to be filled in terms of what they are transferring. Manufacturing techniques? Basic information? How useful is that technical data they are transferring, to which extent? So, tell me, what is this "AESA radar ToT" exactly about?

Lastly, that webinar video you've brought only reinforces my views further, when it mentions that Indonesian participation in IF-X was

project was too ambitious while capability does not support

and that

Indonesian capacity to absorb medium and high-end technologies still under question

You could try your best to argue otherwise, but writing is on the wall. If you want more, you pay more. If you want to improve Indonesian defense industry capabilities, more investments are needed. As simple as that. Indonesia thought KF-X/IF-X was going to be the right balance but seems to have changed their mind. No problem with that, but if you change your mind, you are responsible for it, not someone else.

 

[norman88]

An "AESA radar ToT" could mean a lot of things. It's pretty clear that France/Thales isn't transferring the whole RBE2 radar technical data or technology. A power supply LRU related technology and radar signal processing LRU or antenna unit/TRM related technology are both "AESA radar ToT", but their significance varies by a huge margin. Even if they are transferring technologies related to critical LRUs, there's a huge caveat to be filled in terms of what they are transferring. Manufacturing techniques? Basic information? How useful is that technical data they are transferring, to which extent? So, tell me, what is this "AESA radar ToT" exactly about?

There are no complete details, but here's the outline,,
"But in the rafale procurement process from Dassault aviation, we get this technology, It's not just the technology, we even get the labs.
So the labs with the software will be able to develop, this aesa radar technology will be provided to our industry. Later, it can be developed by our defense industry to build an AESA radar". (First Marshal Dedy Laksmono)
https://www.youtube.com/live/TUquJxuYg30?si=z6zkQ-IIdWkITQ8N (1:50:24)

 

[Windchime]

There are no complete details, but here's the outline,,
"But in the rafale procurement process from Dassault aviation, we get this technology, It's not just the technology, we even get the labs.
So the labs with the software will be able to develop, this aesa radar technology will be provided to our industry. Later, it can be developed by our defense industry to build an AESA radar". (First Marshal Dedy Laksmono)
https://www.youtube.com/live/TUquJxuYg30?si=z6zkQ-IIdWkITQ8N (1:50:24)

Thanks for the info, but it basically tells that there will be transfer of certain technology and Thales will help ID setting up a radar research lab equipped with necessary software. Unfortunately there's too less information to judge how impactful French ToT will be with just this and it's still hard to think that the scope of French ToT provided as an offset for the Rafale deal will be more impactful for the overall ID aerospace industry than what they were supposed to receive and learn through IF-X. Though it is also true that assistance in fostering domestic R&D infrastructure will definitely help to kick-start radar-related research capabilities.

Although by now it will be pretty clear, I'll reiterate once more. If what ID truly wants is to step up their aerospace industry, they would need their own program. Though they should be dearly prepared to pay a hefty sum for it, and would need to be prepared to answer the questions concerning the economics of their own aircraft model (remember that they were only planning to procure 48 IF-X). Also, since there is no significant program of record concerning avionics in ID, there would be a clear limit as to what they would be able to do if they were to start their own fighter program right now, apart sourcing cockpit components domestically.

Developments like the new Thales-assisted radar lab will be a right starting point but it will still need much more time and investment before it transforms into useful domestic capabilities. Also they'll need an actually credible roadmap as to how they will foster domestic technological basis and really show commitment, as pointed out countless times by various Indonesian military officials and industry personnel I've read online. Simply asking for more ToT without and actual overarching strategy or more industrial share without long-term planning, and all this for a program that they have agreed to participate under current conditions doesn't make much sense.

Lastly, all the time I read some articles or ID military fans citing Indonesian dissatisfaction about the program online, it's either from some politicians or an uninitiated. Most of the times I read an interview by the research personnel who are actually taking part in the program, be it official or as an "undisclosed source/anonymous program personnel", they were stressing the importance of this program. Makes me think that most of these "dissatisfaction" are very much politically intended. Politics interfering in R&D, especially when it is trying to hinder it for political reasons never works out.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

During the earlier days of KF-X, KF-X based on existing design was seriously considered as an option. Boeing offered a Super Hornet based design, while EADS offered Eurofighter as a base model. LM offered a a F-16-based fighter which went the furthest, and it was supposed to be equipped with Korean avionics and flight controls system. Projected development cost was around $5.4 billion in then exchange rate.

Interesting! Do you have any posts that you have made in the past regarding what you just mentioned? I would like to read more on it.

 

[chibiyabi]

Thanks for the info, but it basically tells that there will be transfer of certain technology and Thales will help ID setting up a radar research lab equipped with necessary software. Unfortunately there's too less information to judge how impactful French ToT will be with just this and it's still hard to think that the scope of French ToT provided as an offset for the Rafale deal will be more impactful for the overall ID aerospace industry than what they were supposed to receive and learn through IF-X. Though it is also true that assistance in fostering domestic R&D infrastructure will definitely help to kick-start radar-related research capabilities.

what indonesia current goverment want, just simple, same cooperation like we did in the past when buy LPD from SOKOR, 20 % development cost quite big IMHO.

 

[Windchime]

Interesting! Do you have any posts that you have made in the past regarding what you just mentioned? I would like to read more on it.

Since this is going off-topic into KF-X related discussion, I'll answer in the KF-X thread. https://defencehub.live/threads/kf-x-if-x-kf-21-program.3154/page-18#post-295786

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717840822497051047

 

[Ravager]

And like i said before ....we will pay it all eventually . Just it might not the way some people are wishing it to be ...