Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[wahyu845]

It started from US decline us to get F-35 lol. Then all kind of aircrafts started to popping up until this shame Mirage 2000.

But what is F-35 if logistically we still considered as less good than countries that already would got it this decade

but as a comparison of thailand which has the same ability as we get F 35

 

[schuimpjes]

but as a comparison of thailand which has the same ability as we get F 35

Still no new information about that right? I don’t think US would give Thailand F-35 if they still not fully used democracy again after the coup by today’s PM. If US give the non democratic countries the same as the countries with democracy, what the difference between them arming Russia and China.

Last decades, ya they were arming non democratic at least they were Anti-Soviet or communist as a whole, but now is not battle between that anymore, the value here is democracy and non-democratic value. Citizens of Panem deserves better than unilateral Hunger Games every years from the people that they couldn’t even change except with violence.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Indonesia needs an effective and encompassing realistic Air-force - not a sorry "meaningless" Show-force.

If the USA is willing to supply Block50+ then get a force totaling 100+ F-16's - other wise get a 140 J-10's + training from Pakistan
Indonesia needs numbers and realistic maintenance and upgrade possibilities to actually learn as to what an Air-force is about.
Then after 2035 at least it would know what to look for and as to how an Air-force serves Indonesia's defense interests best.

 

[Lordimperator]

It started from US decline us to get F-35 lol. Then all kind of aircrafts started to popping up until this shame Mirage 2000.

But what is F-35 if logistically we still considered as less good than countries that already would got it this decade

RTAF has the higher chance in F35 procurements

What you expect from procurement with poor planning compared to Japan, SK, Taiwan, Singapore, PRC. Put just Asian countries here.

Welp, lack of visionaries and long term military investment doesnt get you more vote, only bombastic ones could be Campaign for the political and decision maker.

 

[FPXAllen]

I don’t think US would give Thailand F-35 if they still not fully used democracy again after the coup by today’s PM.

Friendly reminder: Don't bet on it.

Indonesia needs an effective and encompassing realistic Air-force - not a sorry "meaningless" Show-force.

We've always been 'tambal sulam' and 'ngeteng' post-1965. But to look from another perspective, the first time we bought combat aircraft and other military hardwares in (relatively) large numbers in the early 60s, we were still paying the debts incurred by that until well into the mid-1990s.

I feel that we're in a similar position (well, kind of) to Germany in regards to military spending post WW2 until after Russia invaded Ukraine. There are still traces of "not wanting to disturb our neighbors" mentality or justification when it comes to the issue of raising defense budget.

Would love to see this country raising its peacetime defense budget to at least 1.5%-2% of GDP within my lifetime.

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541413248310087680

 

[Umigami]

 

[Jagdflieger]

Friendly reminder: Don't bet on it.

We've always been 'tambal sulam' and 'ngeteng' post-1965. But to look from another perspective, the first time we bought combat aircraft and other military hardwares in (relatively) large numbers in the early 60s, we were still paying the debts incurred by that until well into the mid-1990s.

I feel that we're in a similar position (well, kind of) to Germany in regards to military spending post WW2 until after Russia invaded Ukraine. There are still traces of "not wanting to disturb our neighbors" mentality or justification when it comes to the issue of raising defense budget.

Would love to see this country raising its peacetime defense budget to at least 1.5%-2% of GDP within my lifetime.

No one can or would deny Indonesia's right towards an effective defense. - The problem isn't just the defense budget, but the way it is spend.
Germany had around 1000F-104 and around 400 idiotic Fiat-G91
In the 80's Replaced by around 250 F-4's, 400 Tornado and 250 less idiotic Alpha jets.
Replaced by around 140 Eurofighter's (initially supposed to be 350) , 75 Tornado's - now to be replaced by around 30 F-35's.
(Please don't ask as to how many are actually capable to fly combat missions)

That the numbers are going down is happening in every country - huge costs for new aircraft, and smaller or stagnant budgets.
But as you can see - there were never more then 2-3 fighter-aircraft types around. - and this is what (as you know) makes an air-force effective/worthwhile.

Indonesia since the 80's - Hawk 109, 200, 209, OV-10 Bronco, T-50's, A-4's, F-5's, F-16, Suhkoi 27, Suhkoi 30, Rafale and now maybe plus Mirage 2000 - never mind the Tucano's - did I forget any? - basically 11 aircraft, all in insufficient numbers to secure 12 million square kilometers of territory.

 

[schuimpjes]

Friendly reminder: Don't bet on it.

I’ll take it but still explain my view about it anyway.

Would be political suicide if US (Congress especially) let them have F-35 in current conditions, except they are really needed to have the F-35 to advance US interest in the region, like they are the country that has the same interest with US to tackle whatever in the region.

US gain nothing or even lose their credibility of defending democracy if they just recklessly let current Thai government with its high possibility of rigging the elections with F-35 without excusable reason.

 

[RadenSudirman]

Welp, at least everyone here knows they cannot defend the Mirage idea, or even completely disagree with it, and therefore also agree that the procurement policy regarding this is stupid. So they subconsciously agree that SMI is proven to be stupid in terms of her commitment to "supporting" defense-related programs indeed because otherwise, they should have defended "her" policy, which they didn't.

Then blame "historical precedent" for such an awful procurement policy to avoid blaming SMI, when it clearly wouldn't be a thing without her acc. Such a letdown when Wowo already laid out the plan for fighter jets which was quite nice but then modified in favor of idiotic "alternatives" approved by a dumber minister.

Anyway, we should stick to the original Rafale + F-15 + KF-21, with the planned optimal number of airframes, I think you guys agree with me on this.

 

[Umigami]

Rafale + F-15 + KF-21, with the planned optimal number of airframes, I think you guys agree with me on this.

Ideally. If possible.

 

[FPXAllen]

Since I was likely either one, or one of few, who was mentioned in this - especially due to my last few posts containing historical contexts (which were never intended to point finger on anyone, btw):

Then blame "historical precedent" for such an awful procurement policy to avoid blaming SMI

I just have to put this here:

Spoiler

Who hurt you mate?

Most, if not all of us here feel frustrated by this matter, but everyone has their own way to express their frustration especially since they've been all too familiar with 'betrayed expectations' in TNI's procurement projects even long before the current finmin or whatever.

So why the need to disparage anyone who chooses not to express their frustration the same way you do?

 

[FoodSoldier]

Welp, at least everyone here knows they cannot defend the Mirage idea, or even completely disagree with it, and therefore also agree that the procurement policy regarding this is stupid. So they subconsciously agree that SMI is proven to be stupid in terms of her commitment to "supporting" defense-related programs indeed because otherwise, they should have defended "her" policy, which they didn't.

Then blame "historical precedent" for such an awful procurement policy to avoid blaming SMI, when it clearly wouldn't be a thing without her acc. Such a letdown when Wowo already laid out the plan for fighter jets which was quite nice but then modified in favor of idiotic "alternatives" approved by a dumber minister.

Anyway, we should stick to the original Rafale + F-15 + KF-21, with the planned optimal number of airframes, I think you guys agree with me on this.

Kemenkeu is forcing the RMP (Rupiah Murni Pendamping) to be implemented on Prabowo’s $125 billion procurement plan. Which is ridiculuous cause they (Kemenkeu) don’t have the money (for the RMP) while the lenders are ready to offer DP nol persen (no downpayment needed) with very low interest rate.

Kemenkeu’s supporter always argue that RMP is a fiscal balancing mechanism to ensure our repayment capability in the future. In my opinion, that argument is weak because Kemenkeu approved too many loans for infrastructure projects without proper financial feasibility and without RMP. In addition, the repayment of Prabowo’s $125 plan will be coming from 20% of annual MoD budget (for the next 25 years), which is safe in fiscal point of view.

I must say that the culprit of why TNI always buy KETENGAN is Kemenkeu rigid budget regime. If we don’t reform that soon, we can say goodbye to better weapon procurement in the future.

 

[Lordimperator]

I must say that the culprit of why TNI always buy KETENGAN is Kemenkeu rigid budget regime. If we don’t reform that soon, we can say goodbye to better weapon procurement in the future.

MoF budgeting need to see what happened in Ukraine now, without proper armaments cant protect its economy.
Also buying in small number is okay, gradually adding its quantity, and as long as they have proper long term planning.

 

[R4duga]

Since I was likely either one, or one of few, who was mentioned in this - especially due to my last few posts containing historical contexts (which were never intended to point finger on anyone, btw):

I just have to put this here:

Spoiler

Who hurt you mate?

Most, if not all of us here feel frustrated by this matter, but everyone has their own way to express their frustration especially since they've been all too familiar with 'betrayed expectations' in TNI's procurement projects even long before the current finmin or whatever.

So why the need to disparage anyone who chooses not to express their frustration the same way you do?

*Bantingan is an appropriate word for this

been happening since kenyot arc during kaskus era.

 

[wahyu845]

*Bantingan is an appropriate word for this

been happening since kenyot arc during kaskus era.

*Bantingan era Kenyot on kaskus

 

[wahyu845]

What you expect from procurement with poor planning compared to Japan, SK, Taiwan, Singapore, PRC. Put just Asian countries here.

The hope is that in the future, structured and planned procurement (such as RAAF & RSAF), less kickbacks, less overproud of the work of the nation's and also more support from Mrs. Sri is koentji

 

[RadenSudirman]

Since I was likely either one, or one of few, who was mentioned in this - especially due to my last few posts containing historical contexts (which were never intended to point finger on anyone, btw):

I just have to put this here:

Spoiler

Who hurt you mate?

Most, if not all of us here feel frustrated by this matter, but everyone has their own way to express their frustration especially since they've been all too familiar with 'betrayed expectations' in TNI's procurement projects even long before the current finmin or whatever.

So why the need to disparage anyone who chooses not to express their frustration the same way you do?

Nobody hurt me. But MANY hurt the future of our country. Why focus on the disagreeable statement from a random dude on the internet, but turn a blind eye to blatant mismanagement by a supposedly "infallible minister"? This is your country and also mine, and in this case, we can pinpoint which ministry and which minister messed up the fighter procurement policy. Basically, you guys should care, and self-criticize if one among you thinks SMI is beyond criticism.

Don't get personal in this discussion, as you can see I do not "attack" anyone here because I don't need to. It is perfectly fine to criticize a paid bureaucrat because 1. They are paid, 2. Entrusted with an office, 3. Therefore if they mess up it is definitely their fault to blame.

FoodSoldier contributed by pointing out what exactly is flawed in Kemenkeu's model which ends up complicating the acc for the budget which our MOD and Military desperately needed. Thanks a lot for that and this strengthens the case that Kemenkeu's meddling with our Defense establishment is harmful.

Even more extreme is that they can even divert a matter this crucial for alternatives that are in contradiction to the original plan by your own MOD. Wth Kemenkeu should make their own Dirjen Pertahanan or something, so much for a state within a state.

Man I am bureaucrat, I know how this stuff work and how pejabat think. I can tell you this is not a good precedent.

 

[Gundala]

I have always said from the very beginning, Kemenkeu is too powerful and that is bad

Imagine having a wallet that can talk back against you, and control your own money, that's basically Kemenkeu

From Kemenkeu perspective; perhaps they also getting tired of inconsistency, inefficiency and ineffectiveness regarding planning, designing and procurring defence equipment. "Satelit Militer" is one of the example including how the former MoD "forgot" to put KFX budget into their allocation. I am not defending them, just trying to give different perspective

Retire the Hawks, induct the Mirages.

yea, I like the idea.

Kemenhan, No love for more FA-50 ?

They will get more of it, well at least they already plan to. The last 6 ordered was ahead of schedule due to certain issues. IMHO

RTAF has the higher chance in F35 procurements

Nope, when you have other non NATO or shall we say west adversary defense equipment that can track F35 via GCI, warship, etc, there wont be any F35 for them

The problem isn't just the defense budget, but the way it is spend

Yup

Anyway, we should stick to the original Rafale + F-15 + KF-21, with the planned optimal number of airframes, I think you guys agree with me on this.

Yes and No. Keep in mind that sometime the procurement have excessive outside influence, we can create perfect plan but in our case overseas pressure can sometime be too overwhelming an too risky to ignore. Eastern def equipt at earlier stage of Bung Karno, East & West def equipt during late stage (end after JFK), Pak Harto west equipt era during his term, the plan to induct Sukhoi fleet before his term end, the west sanction on def equip, the first Sukhoi arrival in ibu Mega era, and so on. See the big picture here?

The jaman now era; Additional F16 & Sukhoi plan got thrown away due to outside pressure. US via CAATSA and the "plan" to drop F16 out of the picture due to overwhelming pressure not to induct eastern block equipment raise a question on US commitment to fully support our Defense build. Rejection of F35 confirm the US stand toward our nation.

Current world geopolitic dictate our procurement toward more "neutral" and less-risk nation (political stand point) but still can be rely upon political support and technology advancement. The good relation and the statement above put Franco on the top of the list.

And No, we wont drop the Sukhoi anytime soon, Sukhoi fleet is the only fleet with more complete missiles armament compare to their western born fleet sisters. We will have it until other fighters have more or less the same munition type as the Sukhoi. Not even EX would perform well if we dont have or not allowed to have the same munitions as our friend down under right?

Lastly, I am not defending anyone or anything, I am just throwing my 5 cents to give different perspective. Mirage as interim would be good and can only be good IF we induct Rafale as planned (number wise). Perhaps the plan is to leave F16 as it is until they retired and to have Franco-US Mixture (KF21 & T50i)-Sukhoi/EX. Beside the financial burden to get EX, the type of muntions allowed are also being considered, and this going to be heavily related on how we perform our foreign policy. Keep in mind that foreign politcy is based upon our own national interest, and no nation in this world is going to be happy if their own national interest being dictate by others.

 

[schuimpjes]

Peluang RTAF lebih besar untuk mendapatkan F 35 (mungkin karena Thailand bukan sekutu Natto non-mayor dan mungkin kita harus keluar dari non-blok dan bergabung dengan sekutu non-mayor? untuk mendapatkan hak istimewa yang kuat)

Their MNNA status was given during early War on Terror. CIA Black Site and those who Extraordinary Renditioned in SEA were normally (maybe) put on that Black Site(s).

Meanwhile our involvement during war on terror (with US) were not that institutionalized. The most notable was the capture of Omar al Farouq by Gultor AD before law enforcement had western backed Densus 88. No Gina Haspel’s stuff here.

Different era now with more threats coming from state actors.