Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Lordimperator]

Mirage as interim would be good and can only be good IF we induct Rafale as planned (number wise)

Number wise 42? What do you think about how many KF21 block 1 should be bought for the AF?

 

[Gundala]

Number wise 42?

What I can guess about the numbers being changed often was more toward budget vs munitions = numbers. In other words they are trying to have combat ready fighters and sacrifice fighter numbers to achieve it.

What do you think about how many KF21 block 1 should be bought for the AF?

Too early to talk about numbers, lets see how the test perform results going to be and how our AU match those results into their operational requirements.

 

[RadenSudirman]

From Kemenkeu perspective; perhaps they also getting tired of inconsistency, inefficiency and ineffectiveness regarding planning, designing and procurring defence equipment. "Satelit Militer" is one of the example including how the former MoD "forgot" to put KFX budget into their allocation. I am not defending them, just trying to give different perspective

Then the solution is that they can advise MoD for that matter, just like in America innit. But not "veto" a budget, change the program, then introduce a new program that contradicts the one made by the responsible ministry.

If they are "tired of inconsistency, inefficiency, and ineffectiveness" then they should look at a mirror first. In this case alone we can see that they are 1) Inconsistent = Changing Rafale program, do not deliver budget as promised, 2) Inefficient = Unable to allocate enough resources to complete a program as intended, instead start a new one that will require more resources and lobbying while at the same time will not contribute as much as the original program, 3) Ineffective = Failed to deliver satisfactorily the budget requested by another ministry, which in turn will hamper the military strength of Indonesian military in the long run.

It is the financial dictator and her minions who are the source of the problem.

Yes and No. Keep in mind that sometime the procurement have excessive outside influence, we can create perfect plan but in our case overseas pressure can sometime be too overwhelming an too risky to ignore. Eastern def equipt at earlier stage of Bung Karno, East & West def equipt during late stage (end after JFK), Pak Harto west equipt era during his term, the plan to induct Sukhoi fleet before his term end, the west sanction on def equip, the first Sukhoi arrival in ibu Mega era, and so on. See the big picture here?

The jaman now era; Additional F16 & Sukhoi plan got thrown away due to outside pressure. US via CAATSA and the "plan" to drop F16 out of the picture due to overwhelming pressure not to induct eastern block equipment raise a question on US commitment to fully support our Defense build. Rejection of F35 confirm the US stand toward our nation.

Current world geopolitic dictate our procurement toward more "neutral" and less-risk nation (political stand point) but still can be rely upon political support and technology advancement. The good relation and the statement above put Franco on the top of the list.

Rafale - F-15 - KF-21 are all already given green light politically by all of the suppliers, this is a non-issue. So why talk about this? Just continue with the program as planned, but the STAN Mafia and their ogre mother seem to have their own agenda to fulfill, which is definitely not to support the establishment of a robust military.

I think you overestimate the Wallet Witch, she ain't considering geopolitics and stuff, she only knows about money and money alone, she's just an overrated bendahara.

If people want a "politically neutral supplier" + "strong modern military", then go for France, get Rafale, SAMP-T, ships, armors, you name it, buy new in substantial numbers, and reform the military to accommodate contemporary tactics and technology. But no, the ogre wanted some second-hand stuff from some desert countries, without clear plan about them in the long run, "genius" indeed.

Lastly, I am not defending anyone or anything, I am just throwing my 5 cents to give different perspective. Mirage as interim would be good and can only be good IF we induct Rafale as planned (number wise). Perhaps the plan is to leave F16 as it is until they retired and to have Franco-US Mixture (KF21 & T50i)-Sukhoi/EX. Beside the financial burden to get EX, the type of muntions allowed are also being considered, and this going to be heavily related on how we perform our foreign policy. Keep in mind that foreign politcy is based upon our own national interest, and no nation in this world is going to be happy if their own national interest being dictate by others.

How about defense policy being dictated by other ministries? Sack the witch and reform Kemenkeu and such budget policy nuisance will become a non-issue

And stick to the original plan, with long-term logistics plan following the initial acquistion.

 

[NEKO]

Then the solution is that they can advise MoD for that matter, just like in America innit. But not "veto" a budget, change the program, then introduce a new program that contradicts the one made by the responsible ministry.

If they are "tired of inconsistency, inefficiency, and ineffectiveness" then they should look at a mirror first. In this case alone we can see that they are 1) Inconsistent = Changing Rafale program, do not deliver budget as promised, 2) Inefficient = Unable to allocate enough resources to complete a program as intended, instead start a new one that will require more resources and lobbying while at the same time will not contribute as much as the original program, 3) Ineffective = Failed to deliver satisfactorily the budget requested by another ministry, which in turn will hamper the military strength of Indonesian military in the long run.

It is the financial dictator and her minions who are the source of the problem.


Rafale - F-15 - KF-21 are all already given green light politically by all of the suppliers, this is a non-issue. So why talk about this? Just continue with the program as planned, but the STAN Mafia and their ogre mother seem to have their own agenda to fulfill, which is definitely not to support the establishment of a robust military.

I think you overestimate the Wallet Witch, she ain't considering geopolitics and stuff, she only knows about money and money alone, she's just an overrated bendahara.

If people want a "politically neutral supplier" + "strong modern military", then go for France, get Rafale, SAMP-T, ships, armors, you name it, buy new in substantial numbers, and reform the military to accommodate contemporary tactics and technology. But no, the ogre wanted some second-hand stuff from some desert countries, without clear plan about them in the long run, "genius" indeed.


How about defense policy being dictated by other ministries? Sack the witch and reform Kemenkeu and such budget policy nuisance will become a non-issue

And stick to the original plan, with long-term logistics plan following the initial acquistion.

Ok boomer.

 

[RadenSudirman]

Ok boomer.

Whatever, we know the situation is bad and there's someone to blame. As long as people recognize it that's good, at least the witch and her minion's wrongdoings will get exposed.

No need for hostility among members, we all have the same desire for Indonesia to have a good military.

 

[FoodSoldier]

Then the solution is that they can advise MoD for that matter, just like in America innit. But not "veto" a budget, change the program, then introduce a new program that contradicts the one made by the responsible ministry.

If they are "tired of inconsistency, inefficiency, and ineffectiveness" then they should look at a mirror first. In this case alone we can see that they are 1) Inconsistent = Changing Rafale program, do not deliver budget as promised, 2) Inefficient = Unable to allocate enough resources to complete a program as intended, instead start a new one that will require more resources and lobbying while at the same time will not contribute as much as the original program, 3) Ineffective = Failed to deliver satisfactorily the budget requested by another ministry, which in turn will hamper the military strength of Indonesian military in the long run.

It is the financial dictator and her minions who are the source of the problem.


Rafale - F-15 - KF-21 are all already given green light politically by all of the suppliers, this is a non-issue. So why talk about this? Just continue with the program as planned, but the STAN Mafia and their ogre mother seem to have their own agenda to fulfill, which is definitely not to support the establishment of a robust military.

I think you overestimate the Wallet Witch, she ain't considering geopolitics and stuff, she only knows about money and money alone, she's just an overrated bendahara.

If people want a "politically neutral supplier" + "strong modern military", then go for France, get Rafale, SAMP-T, ships, armors, you name it, buy new in substantial numbers, and reform the military to accommodate contemporary tactics and technology. But no, the ogre wanted some second-hand stuff from some desert countries, without clear plan about them in the long run, "genius" indeed.


How about defense policy being dictated by other ministries? Sack the witch and reform Kemenkeu and such budget policy nuisance will become a non-issue

And stick to the original plan, with long-term logistics plan following the initial acquistion.

International lenders and bankers gave kickback to oknum in Lap Banteng is an open secret. That’s why we keep getting higher interest rates for foreign loans, which some chunk of the interest rates will be allocated for kickbacks to the oknums.

When 08 brought UAE, Qatari and Japanese lenders who offer very low interest rate, those oknum start to worry that they will no longer enjoying the kickback from their bankers crony. (mostly western banks/funds).

 

[Van Kravchenko]

My disappointment is beyond deepest sea, on of many why I hate "Gado-gado" stuff is the logistic nightmare are real, especially Aeroplane WHICH Indonesia Were bad at keeping readynes above 50% , thus make big portion of air craft is in maintenance state.

putting small number of new aircraft into inventory just make thing worst. rather than buy new airframe I will fully support whatever Fighter as long as we already have capability to maintenance it.

that god damn Mirage 2000 only cause headache let alone engine and munitions. can't wait to see PAL frigate turn into most disgusting ship of IH derivates

 

[FoodSoldier]

Indeed. The best example is Garuda Indonesia shit show.

From debt of Rp 142,42 trillion down to Rp 16,67 trillion after PKPU. Just shows you how crazy the marked up interest rate of the original debt was.

Proposal PKPU Lolos, Garuda Bakal Lepas dari Tekanan Keuangan - Korporasi Katadata.co.id

Persetujuan proposal PKPU membuat Garuda Indonesia dapat menerima suntikan dana PMN senilai Rp 7,5 triliun

katadata.co.id

Jokowi era has been a partying time for financial robbers.

Notice that now almost all foreigh loans are coming from the market (with excessive market rates). G2G loan almost non existent anymore, eventhough it has cosiderably lower interest rates and more flexible terms. France govt for once offered a softloan for their weapons.

When corrupt oknums and greedy bankers collide, we can say goodbye to well planned and well funded weapon modernization.

Btw, regarding weapon procurement/modernization DPR, MoD and TNI has their own oknum too. But first, we need to address the fundamental problem with our budgeting policy, since it will determine our planning philosophy.

 

[Umigami]

When 08 brought UAE, Qatari and Japanese lenders who offer very low interest rate,

Did SMI approve it?

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541734179121299457

 

[FoodSoldier]

Did SMI approve it?

Had she approved it, we will witness a larger contract signing for French stuffs.

“France is trying to get Abu Dhabi to finance Jakarta's procurement of Rafale while the Indonesian government has turned to the more US-friendly Doha…”

https://www.intelligenceonline.com/...contest-between-rafale-and-f-16,109706648-art

 

[FoodSoldier]

Pfft. Just Jokowi era? You kidding me? Don't try to mislead me. This shit has been happening since Suharto era. I don't know about Sukarno era so I'll omitted it.

I’m specifically pointing on the corruption in government loans arrangement. The amount of past era kickback combined is nothing compared to the merciless robbery in this administration. You have no idea

simply because now every new loan is coming from the market, and every government project (and even overhead) has been financed by loan.

 

[Umigami]

Had she approved it, we will witness a larger contract signing for French stuffs.

“France is trying to get Abu Dhabi to finance Jakarta's procurement of Rafale while the Indonesian government has turned to the more US-friendly Doha…”

https://www.intelligenceonline.com/...contest-between-rafale-and-f-16,109706648-art

So she approved Doha?

 

[FoodSoldier]

So she approved Doha?

So she approved Doha?

Maybe the Mirage deal will tell us something. UAE and Qatar represent different interest, which 08 is trying to accomodate both.

As for SMI, I’m just guessing that Kemenkeu will approve if there’s RMP for the project. We all understand that the RMP is only availablr for 6 unit (not yet available for the 36). RMP is around 15% of the total price.

 

[FPXAllen]

*Bantingan is an appropriate word for this

Ah yes. That one is a classic.

been happening since kenyot arc during kaskus era.

"Bantingan kenyot"

Just imagining the potential of meme & ketar ketir shitty quality video that will be created out of it is enough to make me have wet dream at night- nay, for the whole day.

China: "We have strongest military in Asia, you shall bow before us!"
Indonesia: "Meh, we have legions of alay clickbaiter youtubers. You are nothing to us."

Nobody hurt me. But MANY hurt the future of our country. Why focus on the disagreeable statement from a random dude on the internet, but turn a blind eye to blatant mismanagement by a supposedly "infallible minister"? This is your country and also mine, and in this case, we can pinpoint which ministry and which minister messed up the fighter procurement policy. Basically, you guys should care, and self-criticize if one among you thinks SMI is beyond criticism.

Don't get personal in this discussion, as you can see I do not "attack" anyone here because I don't need to. It is perfectly fine to criticize a paid bureaucrat because 1. They are paid, 2. Entrusted with an office, 3. Therefore if they mess up it is definitely their fault to blame.

FoodSoldier contributed by pointing out what exactly is flawed in Kemenkeu's model which ends up complicating the acc for the budget which our MOD and Military desperately needed. Thanks a lot for that and this strengthens the case that Kemenkeu's meddling with our Defense establishment is harmful.

Even more extreme is that they can even divert a matter this crucial for alternatives that are in contradiction to the original plan by your own MOD. Wth Kemenkeu should make their own Dirjen Pertahanan or something, so much for a state within a state.

Man I am bureaucrat, I know how this stuff work and how pejabat think. I can tell you this is not a good precedent.

First, nobody - at least not me - turned a blind eye to the real cause of the whole situation. But then again, it's a proven fact that inefficiency, spooling of power to a few, heavy-handed and half-hearted measures, even to blatant ignorance to a real potential and brewing crisis, have always been the part of our bureaucracy.

Second, due to that, we've reached a point where nothing seems to matter anymore especially since - like I said earlier - most of us here have already been too familiar with "bantingan" since long ago. It sucks, it's infuriating, it's g*ddamn frustrating whenever something like this happen, but it keeps happening ad infinitum nevertheless since nobody can do anything about it, not even the supposedly "promising" and "clean" career bureaucrats since they have no choice but to compromise a lot if they want to keep their sanity in check and their jobs intact.

So yes. This has been long transformed into apathy which, personally, has actually affecting me in doing my own work. Take KF-21, for example. When other medias reported that SK will conduct its first flight soon, I'm too embarassed to publish anything about it since we're still not fully committed to it, even still trying to negotiate to lower our share.

F*!(ing shameless!

I personally thank you, @FoodSoldier and some others who revealed what is happening behind the scenes. But if even you - who are familiar with the inner working of our ministries and how those pejabat think far better than most of us here - can't do anything to change how things currently are, well,...

Spoiler

For now, I'll just put the rest of whatever hope I still got for a certain figure to become president in 2024. This, of course, with a full realization that even if it's realized, it won't necessarily mean that our defense procurement programs will finally got their long-overdue priority and budget allocation - much less for transparency.

No need for hostility among members, we all have the same desire for Indonesia to have a good military.

I concur.

See, we have the same concern, and the same frustration too. Everything after are just details.

 

[NEKO]

If I am not wrong there is a limit of how much foreign loan we can take (%? from GDP?).
MoF didn't led MoD by the nose and dictate what alutsista that we should buy. MoF not only need to handle foreign loan used for military equipment purchase but also for building infrastructure, factory, and we also have mega project of IKN etc. MoF can't allocate the capped foreign loan only for the sole purpose of obtaining military equipments, even the president won't allow that and that's why we usually buy stuff in several batch of small number, FFBNW, no weapons included etc. because the budget is limited.
If we take the complete deal of Rafale in a single step it might give too much burden for our APBN and thus we order in a small number first.
Should we call MoF as hindrance and sabotaging TNI modernization because of this? Should we focus on using all PLN (still within the allowed limit) solely on military equipments and abandon the others?
Even its possible that the $13.9 bil deal for F15EX will be split and we will order small number of F15EX at first, will it be MoF fault?

The military is a high priority but there is still other thing that also need to be allocated some budget, we need to look at the bigger perspective and not get too emotional just because its involve the military and also we our self is military enthusiast.

 

[Lordimperator]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541767632520507392

 

[NEKO]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541767632520507392

Where is Hawk and sukhoi?
Him : gone, reduced to atoms.

 

[kantokuukai]

If I am not wrong there is a limit of how much foreign loan we can take (%? from GDP?).
MoF didn't led MoD by the nose and dictate what alutsista that we should buy. MoF not only need to handle foreign loan used for military equipment purchase but also for building infrastructure, factory, and we also have mega project of IKN etc. MoF can't allocate the capped foreign loan only for the sole purpose of obtaining military equipments, even the president won't allow that and that's why we usually buy stuff in several batch of small number, FFBNW, no weapons included etc. because the budget is limited.
If we take the complete deal of Rafale in a single step it might give too much burden for our APBN and thus we order in a small number first.
Should we call MoF as hindrance and sabotaging TNI modernization because of this? Should we focus on using all PLN (still within the allowed limit) solely on military equipments and abandon the others?
Even its possible that the $13.9 bil deal for F15EX will be split and we will order small number of F15EX at first, will it be MoF fault?

The military is a high priority but there is still other thing that also need to be allocated some budget, we need to look at the bigger perspective and not get too emotional just because its involve the military and also we our self is military enthusiast.

@Umigami maybe you can change the thread title to something else and not

Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)​

Agree, that the key point is to choose a super-priority program among many priority options. And right now while the defense is a priority there are more important ones while the available budget is limited. Indonesia is not the United States that can have a military budget of that size, even compared to several countries under it which are still larger.
In addition, if everything is financed from foreign debt, the mandate of the law involving domestic industry/parties will be difficult to fulfill.

 

[Umigami]

If I am not wrong there is a limit of how much foreign loan we can take (%? from GDP?).
MoF didn't led MoD by the nose and dictate what alutsista that we should buy. MoF not only need to handle foreign loan used for military equipment purchase but also for building infrastructure, factory, and we also have mega project of IKN etc. MoF can't allocate the capped foreign loan only for the sole purpose of obtaining military equipments, even the president won't allow that and that's why we usually buy stuff in several batch of small number, FFBNW, no weapons included etc. because the budget is limited.
If we take the complete deal of Rafale in a single step it might give too much burden for our APBN and thus we order in a small number first.
Should we call MoF as hindrance and sabotaging TNI modernization because of this? Should we focus on using all PLN (still within the allowed limit) solely on military equipments and abandon the others?
Even its possible that the $13.9 bil deal for F15EX will be split and we will order small number of F15EX at first, will it be MoF fault?

The military is a high priority but there is still other thing that also need to be allocated some budget, we need to look at the bigger perspective and not get too emotional just because its involve the military and also we our self is military enthusiast.

@Umigami maybe you can change the thread title to something else and not

Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)​

Is "Indonesian Air Force (TNI-AU)" good enough?