Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Pilatino]

I can't wait for the SİKATAN ahahhaha joke aside can't we produce civilian airliners with Indonesia in the future? We can be rich together. I think they've got some experience on that topic.

 

[Gary]

Just to recap this, the scope of what we get and what the RoK would willingly give as @Windchime suggest has been pretty clear and pre-defined by the time Indonesia jumped in into the program. Unlike the TFX, due to the differing levels of techological mastery and the level of supporting industries we are bound to be junior partner in a fighter jet program, so its likely the same case either its KFX or we suddenly jump towards TFX.

The current admin clearly have a differing levels of enthusiasm when it comes to continuing the program, with some pointing our very limited share of know how. Tbh I don't find this surprising consider our share of the project. Nobody will share their very core technologies even if lets say we increase our share to 50%. Those are state secrets with IP rights belonging to the country of origin. But these are political realities that came in with the change of government.

One member are overtly enthusiastic over our role in the program, and would willingly sell an Island to finance our share .

It's not wrong to re-negotiate our shares and role in the program, everybody does that. But Imo delaying payments as part of re-negotiating tactics is a bad ethic in business. It's either all in or all out. I'm sure the air force has its own input whether if the cancelling of KFX will seriously harm our long range force design, consider that we're getting F-15EX and Rafale and at the same time the KFX isn't really what you call a VLO aircraft.

personally imo, we should just respect our obligation, even if it was just assembling its better than what PT.DI is doing right now. Even little there's a clear learning curve if we want to step in into eventually building and designing our own fighter jets.

In projects like this its important to have an important roadmap of what we're doing and going to do. Certainly there must be a parallel research project for indigenous radar, electronics, engine etc. Our industry must be ready first to eventually supply the components needed to make one. If not then we'll be bound to be juniors, either if its in collaboration with Korea, Turkiye etc.

And more important thing projects like this needed an actual technocrats to lead, not some government appointed officials. When Habibie build the aircraft industries from scratch, Soeharto gives all power to him to direct and do what is necessary, our failure with Elang Hitam shows that we're failing to follow his legacy.

 

[Windchime]

Just to recap this, the scope of what we get and what the RoK would willingly give as @Windchime suggest has been pretty clear and pre-defined by the time Indonesia jumped in into the program. Unlike the TFX, due to the differing levels of techological mastery and the level of supporting industries we are bound to be junior partner in a fighter jet program, so its likely the same case either its KFX or we suddenly jump towards TFX.

The current admin clearly have a differing levels of enthusiasm when it comes to continuing the program, with some pointing our very limited share of know how. Tbh I don't find this surprising consider our share of the project. Nobody will share their very core technologies even if lets say we increase our share to 50%. Those are state secrets with IP rights belonging to the country of origin. But these are political realities that came in with the change of government.

One member are overtly enthusiastic over our role in the program, and would willingly sell an Island to finance our share .

It's not wrong to re-negotiate our shares and role in the program, everybody does that. But Imo delaying payments as part of re-negotiating tactics is a bad ethic in business. It's either all in or all out. I'm sure the air force has its own input whether if the cancelling of KFX will seriously harm our long range force design, consider that we're getting F-15EX and Rafale and at the same time the KFX isn't really what you call a VLO aircraft.

personally imo, we should just respect our obligation, even if it was just assembling its better than what PT.DI is doing right now. Even little there's a clear learning curve if we want to step in into eventually building and designing our own fighter jets.

In projects like this its important to have an important roadmap of what we're doing and going to do. Certainly there must be a parallel research project for indigenous radar, electronics, engine etc. Our industry must be ready first to eventually supply the components needed to make one. If not then we'll be bound to be juniors, either if its in collaboration with Korea, Turkiye etc.

And more important thing projects like this needed an actual technocrats to lead, not some government appointed officials. When Habibie build the aircraft industries from scratch, Soeharto gives all power to him to direct and do what is necessary, our failure with Elang Hitam shows that we're failing to follow his legacy.

Agreed, and actually I'll take a step further about renegotiations. It is okay to stop paying as a policy since a contract normally include clauses regarding delayed payments, most of the times in form of a defined interest rate. It would also be against the duty of a clerc to make decisions that doesn't benefit the national interest. Important thing is to deliver a clear message in doing so. If there are disagreements or dissatifactions regarding scopes of the contract due to whatever reason, one should clearly deliver those to the other negotiating party.

So far I have not had the impression that Indonesia was being clear cut on what they want and expect in renegotiating the contract even after the renegotiation. It is quite well known that Idn govt has stated the pandemic and fiscal strains as the primary issue, which wouldn't be completely false but doesn't explain the delays pre-pandemic. That all the while domestic publications and media in Indonesia pumping out varieties of opinions and information about the program, often citing government officials.

Public opinions in Korea about the delay wouldn't have soured as much if there were clear reasons and objectives outlined by the Prabowo admin.

 

[Windchime]

personally imo, we should just respect our obligation, even if it was just assembling its better than what PT.DI is doing right now. Even little there's a clear learning curve if we want to step in into eventually building and designing our own fighter jets.

What's really damning is that Indonesian contribution is beyond "just assembling" as I've pointed out before, but the delays in payments and restrictions/scale-backs imposed as a result of those delays are relegating Indonesian participation into the realms of knock-down license production. It also didn't help that Indonesian engineers were called back for a while, losing precious time in gaining know-how and know-why.

This is also essentially what the former KF-X program manager was saying in the video posted. If you want to earn something, you should commit yourself.

 

[FoodSoldier]

We should first define what these "core technologies" are, then talk. What are they exactly? Are they technologies regarding key sensors, avionics structure and software? Vehicle design and materials? Some of them are partly connected to offset ToT from the US that Korea received through KFP and F-X programs while others are home-bred.

It is not as simple as "US block ToT and there are no ToT". Most importantly, scope of transfferable technologies were pre-defined when the agreement was signed. Evdiences point towards an agreement where it is stated that no transffer of critical avionics technology are to take place, since the Korean side was very clear and consistent about that from the very beginning.


With which evidence are you saying that they are not getting anything back? Do you even know what they are supposed to get back in the first place?

I believe the main reason Indo govt deferred their payment was due to the ‘vague’ nature of the contract, in a way that it was ‘overpromise’ by the Korean side.

and if you’re looking for mutual partnership in R&D, u will share at least the same proportion of financial contribution percentage of your core tech to your partner. And it’s 20% by the way…

 

[Windchime]

I believe the main reason Indo govt deferred their payment was due to the ‘vague’ nature of the contract, in a way that it was ‘overpromise’ by the Korean side.

and if you’re looking for mutual partnership in R&D, u will share at least the same proportion of financial contribution percentage of your core tech to your partner. And it’s 20% by the way…

That's what you believe, not necessarily what it is, unless you know the details of the contract. More importantly, a bad contract is a contract that solely relies on the good will of the other side of the contract. There's nothing to "overpromise" in that regard. It's either mentiomed in the clause or not.

Also you don't share the same portion when Indonesian participation in the program stretches beyond just the ToT. Their engineers are trained, participates in R&D, have a share in production, has certain rights regarding their aircraft, not to mention that those Indonesian engineers themselves are literally paid from those 20% share of financial contribution. Those folks were paid by KAI and Korean govt.'s own budget while Indonesian govt. was delaying payments so they should be grateful in that regard.

Last but not least, how do you evaluate a value of a certain technology? It's nigh impossible to define certain technology's worth since that definition could change based on various factors and for that reason it is extremely vague. That's why the contract outlines which technology is transfferable and which is not in the first place.

 

[urban mine]

‘vague’ nature of the contract, in a way that it was ‘overpromise’ by the Korean side.

These words don't exist. If you write a contract that way, the contract will be beaten by the Board of Audit and Inspection and those involved will be arrested. As Windchim said above,such a joint development agreement states what the parties should do, how much they should share, and the scope of technology transfer. I've always wondered why people say this. I remember Budi Santoso saying that Indonesia will receive 100% technology transfer with a 20% share.

 

[Baryshx]

I believe the main reason Indo govt deferred their payment was due to the ‘vague’ nature of the contract, in a way that it was ‘overpromise’ by the Korean side.

and if you’re looking for mutual partnership in R&D, u will share at least the same proportion of financial contribution percentage of your core tech to your partner. And it’s 20% by the way…

It is what is written in the contract and you must abide by it. If you have extra requests, they are settled and negotiated. If an agreement is reached, it is added to the contract or renews the contract. But the other party to the contract may not accept this, because everything was determined in the beginning. It should not change with time, governments and leaders.

 

[Gary]

I can't wait for the SİKATAN ahahhaha joke aside can't we produce civilian airliners with Indonesia in the future? We can be rich together. I think they've got some experience on that topic.

The only aviation project we currently have is the N219. I was wondering if a turboprop version of the TEI TS1400 derated for 1000hp would be suitable for the N219 for a potential Turkish market.

Currently we use the PT6A-42 to power the N219.

 

[rai456]

Just to recap this, the scope of what we get and what the RoK would willingly give as @Windchime suggest has been pretty clear and pre-defined by the time Indonesia jumped in into the program. Unlike the TFX, due to the differing levels of techological mastery and the level of supporting industries we are bound to be junior partner in a fighter jet program, so its likely the same case either its KFX or we suddenly jump towards TFX.

The current admin clearly have a differing levels of enthusiasm when it comes to continuing the program, with some pointing our very limited share of know how. Tbh I don't find this surprising consider our share of the project. Nobody will share their very core technologies even if lets say we increase our share to 50%. Those are state secrets with IP rights belonging to the country of origin. But these are political realities that came in with the change of government.

One member are overtly enthusiastic over our role in the program, and would willingly sell an Island to finance our share .

It's not wrong to re-negotiate our shares and role in the program, everybody does that. But Imo delaying payments as part of re-negotiating tactics is a bad ethic in business. It's either all in or all out. I'm sure the air force has its own input whether if the cancelling of KFX will seriously harm our long range force design, consider that we're getting F-15EX and Rafale and at the same time the KFX isn't really what you call a VLO aircraft.

personally imo, we should just respect our obligation, even if it was just assembling its better than what PT.DI is doing right now. Even little there's a clear learning curve if we want to step in into eventually building and designing our own fighter jets.

In projects like this its important to have an important roadmap of what we're doing and going to do. Certainly there must be a parallel research project for indigenous radar, electronics, engine etc. Our industry must be ready first to eventually supply the components needed to make one. If not then we'll be bound to be juniors, either if its in collaboration with Korea, Turkiye etc.

And more important thing projects like this needed an actual technocrats to lead, not some government appointed officials. When Habibie build the aircraft industries from scratch, Soeharto gives all power to him to direct and do what is necessary, our failure with Elang Hitam shows that we're failing to follow his legacy.

How stealthy is the KFX? I've heard that the Koreans got a lot of help from LM on making the KFX stealthy. From the reports on air exercises from the US Air force it seems that 5th gen VLO aircraft absolutely dominate even advance 4th gen aircraft. I would be very wary of going up against 5th gen VLO aircraft in F-15EX and Rafale. And with China producing lots of J20s and developing the J31 for export and the US exporting F35 to other countries in the region 5th gen VLO aircraft will become much more widespread soon.
The KFX, especially when it gets the internal weapons bay, seems like a very good option since we are not getting the F35.

 

[Parry Brima]

It should not change with time, governments and leaders.

Yes, I agree with this last very crucial point. Who cares if you got conned by other countries, you can't blame the previous regime. It's on you now.

Either you obey the existing contract, or pay the exit clause (if any).

And don't make the same mistakes.

 

[AzeriTank]

How stealthy is the KFX? I've heard that the Koreans got a lot of help from LM on making the KFX stealthy. From the reports on air exercises from the US Air force it seems that 5th gen VLO aircraft absolutely dominate even advance 4th gen aircraft. I would be very wary of going up against 5th gen VLO aircraft in F-15EX and Rafale. And with China producing lots of J20s and developing the J31 for export and the US exporting F35 to other countries in the region 5th gen VLO aircraft will become much more widespread soon.
The KFX, especially when it gets the internal weapons bay, seems like a very good option since we are not getting the F35.

As Korea used f414 instead of f404, which has way bigger air inlets, which also could mean more RCS unless it has s duck. (But it has more power)
on the other hand, you will have weapons that will shine on radar as it doesnt have internal bay.
to be honest, i would love to hear more from Koreans who has more info obviously or what they plan to do.
all i can say that these 4th generation aircrafts has very little chance against 5th generation in 10 years, unless they produce it super cheap and able to fight with numbers

 

[AzeriTank]

Lets also be honest, if Indonesia pays for the development and not getting the latest radar, latest EO and sensors, then what was the point to pay and develop a new jet? Please, correct me if i miss understood it all. Imagine you pay for development, ok, but if the end product is not what will really save you from attacks, as its not latest technology, whats the point then? I kinda understand Indonesia from this point. They probably thought Korea will develop everything themselves as Turkey plans and they will be able to recieve the new technology, but if they dont, why to pay more money? I really want somebody tell me if i missunderstood the whole picture

 

[Baryshx]

Lets also be honest, if Indonesia pays for the development and not getting the latest radar, latest EO and sensors, then what was the point to pay and develop a new jet? Please, correct me if i miss understood it all. Imagine you pay for development, ok, but if the end product is not what will really save you from attacks, as its not latest technology, whats the point then? I kinda understand Indonesia from this point. They probably thought Korea will develop everything themselves as Turkey plans and they will be able to recieve the new technology, but if they dont, why to pay more money? I really want somebody tell me if i missunderstood the whole picture

Will the US give the F35 to Indonesia? China won't happen anyway, let's skip Russia. Eurofighter and Rafale old planes may be their top versions, of course. With 20% participation, Korea seems to be a good option.

 

[AzeriTank]

Will the US give the F35 to Indonesia? China won't happen anyway, let's skip Russia. Eurofighter and Rafale old planes may be their top versions, of course. With 20% participation, Korea seems to be a good option.

I just read news that Korean president said they will not give KFX to Indonesia. Who can confirm it?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I was always wondering, are these the main reasons? However, the two countries could have done much better.

S. Korea offered a %60-20(Turkey)-20(Indonesia) partnership. According to Korean proposal, Turkiye and Indonesia would participate with a limited number of engineers and all rights, critical design engineering and project management of the aircraft would be owned by S. Korea. No changes would be made without approval of S. Korea and other partners would operate like an offset branch.

Turkiye on the other hand wanted %40-40-20 partnership and demanded equal management, equal participation, risk-sharing engineering participation and full ownership in the whole project. S. Korea refused this so Turkiye finished the talks. This decision formed the basis of TFX which was completely shaped according to demands of the Turkish army with %100 ownership of Turkiye.

 

[Baryshx]

I just read news that Korean president said they will not give KFX to Indonesia. Who can confirm it?

Then they will turn to other options I mentioned or maybe they will try for TF-X, but the mass production date may be a little late for them. I don't know what are the urgent requirements.

 

[Baryshx]

S. Korea offered a %60-20(Turkey)-20(Indonesia) partnership. According to Korean proposal, Turkiye and Indonesia would participate with a limited number of engineers and all rights, critical design engineering and project management of the aircraft would be owned by S. Korea. No changes would be made without approval of S. Korea and other partners would operate like an offset branch.

Turkiye on the other hand wanted %40-40-20 partnership and demanded equal management, equal participation, risk-sharing engineering participation and full ownership in the whole project. S. Korea refused this so Turkiye made perfect decision and finished the talks. This decision formed the basis of TFX which was completely shaped according to demands of the Turkish army with %100 ownership of Turkiye.

Now that I think about it, even if this partnership did happen, it might not have worked because of the embargoes imposed on us. At that time, the USA, Europe and Israel might not have been so eager for the plane.

 

[Windchime]

I just read news that Korean president said they will not give KFX to Indonesia. Who can confirm it?

Then they will turn to other options I mentioned or maybe they will try for TF-X, but the mass production date may be a little late for them. I don't know what are the urgent requirements.

They are talking about the 5th prototype which was supposed to be sent to Indonesia. I've explained a few times before what this aircraft is for and the reason they are not sending that aircraft under current circumstamces so I wouldn't repeat again.

 

[Windchime]

Lets also be honest, if Indonesia pays for the development and not getting the latest radar, latest EO and sensors, then what was the point to pay and develop a new jet? Please, correct me if i miss understood it all. Imagine you pay for development, ok, but if the end product is not what will really save you from attacks, as its not latest technology, whats the point then? I kinda understand Indonesia from this point. They probably thought Korea will develop everything themselves as Turkey plans and they will be able to recieve the new technology, but if they dont, why to pay more money? I really want somebody tell me if i missunderstood the whole picture

Again, with which evdience are you saying thay KF-21/IF-X will not be equipped with latest sensor and avionics suite? All these talking out of the ass without prior research is getting out of hand now. Just stop.