Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Nilgiri]

For comparison, India FGFA (Su-57 supposed derivative) sunk in expense was at least about 250 million USD till India called it quits over workshare and further commitment/costs/ToT etc that were coming up. i.e the whole thing ended being exploratory and somewhat nominal.

Similar to Turkey with its TF-X, the AMCA is now the full dedicated project for Indian tailored needs.

So these things do happen and countries go their separate ways if there is major difference that cannot be worked out.

Doesn't mean you got absolute zero return for cost you put in and the time you did participate, that all depends on what the contract agreement had for that stuff and what your guys involved got out of it that they can take forward.

Hindsight is 20/20 but India dodged a bullet here given what Russia now got itself into geopolitically in near indelible way this century by the Ukraine war.

It would have been really dumb regardless if India went all "in FGFA we trust" and dropped every other modernisation and acquisition plan and overall hedging.

Indonesia is a good chunk of the size of India (about 1/5th the population) so same overall issue applies....and I agree Indonesia should commit or make a clean break rather than what seems to be a current grey zone with South Korea project.

 

[AzeriTank]

Again, with which evdience are you saying thay KF-21/IF-X will not be equipped with latest sensor and avionics suite? All these talking out of the ass without prior research is getting out of hand now. Just stop.

I mean US doesnt want to share those technology with Indonesia, i know Korea will have hands on those technologies, but how about Indonesia?

 

[Umigami]

I just read news that Korean president said they will not give KFX to Indonesia. Who can confirm it?

Korea won't give us the 5th prototype until we finish our payment.

 

[Umigami]

Lets also be honest, if Indonesia pays for the development and not getting the latest radar, latest EO and sensors, then what was the point to pay and develop a new jet? Please, correct me if i miss understood it all. Imagine you pay for development, ok, but if the end product is not what will really save you from attacks, as its not latest technology, whats the point then? I kinda understand Indonesia from this point. They probably thought Korea will develop everything themselves as Turkey plans and they will be able to recieve the new technology, but if they dont, why to pay more money? I really want somebody tell me if i missunderstood the whole picture

When Turkiye bought F16, did they came out without Radar too because Turkiye isn't a partner in development of AN/APG-68 radar?

 

[Gary]

How stealthy is the KFX? I've heard that the Koreans got a lot of help from LM on making the KFX stealthy. From the reports on air exercises from the US Air force it seems that 5th gen VLO aircraft absolutely dominate even advance 4th gen aircraft. I would be very wary of going up against 5th gen VLO aircraft in F-15EX and Rafale. And with China producing lots of J20s and developing the J31 for export and the US exporting F35 to other countries in the region 5th gen VLO aircraft will become much more widespread soon.
The KFX, especially when it gets the internal weapons bay, seems like a very good option since we are not getting the F35.

The KF-21 is never intended to be a true VLO 5th gen aircraft, for the RoKAF, this is intended to replace the many F-5s and F-4s in their fleet. Its never intended to replace the F-35 to be their true 5th gen fighter, instead it is to complement the F-35 and to grow the RoK aviation industry. RCS wise its comparable to a Rafale.

As Korea used f414 instead of f404, which has way bigger air inlets, which also could mean more RCS unless it has s duck. (But it has more power)
on the other hand, you will have weapons that will shine on radar as it doesnt have internal bay.
to be honest, i would love to hear more from Koreans who has more info obviously or what they plan to do.
all i can say that these 4th generation aircrafts has very little chance against 5th generation in 10 years, unless they produce it super cheap and able to fight with numbers

The size of the engine has nothing to do with the eventual RCS, but the design of the air ducts to hide the blades. The F119/F135 is a lot larger than the F414, yet the F-22/35 are a lot stealthier than F414 equipped jets. The KF-21 inlet is not really the same complexity as what you would've seen in the F-22/35 as it was never intended to be.

 

[Windchime]

The KF-21 is never intended to be a true VLO 5th gen aircraft, for the RoKAF, this is intended to replace the many F-5s and F-4s in their fleet. Its never intended to replace the F-35 to be their true 5th gen fighter, instead it is to complement the F-35 and to grow the RoK aviation industry. RCS wise its comparable to a Rafale.

Exactly. Though a discussion about RCS could only be held when we compare the models of the two aircraft with EM structural analysis tool. On the surface at least the KF-21 has a more refined stealth design since there is a decade of design philosophy evolution between the two aircraft. (one is essentially a 7/80's design philosophy while the other is 8/90's)

The size of the engine has nothing to do with the eventual RCS, but the design of the air ducts to hide the blades. The F119/F135 is a lot larger than the F414, yet the F-22/35 are a lot stealthier than F414 equipped jets. The KF-21 inlet is not really the same complexity as what you would've seen in the F-22/35 as it was never intended to be.

I guess by complexity you mean the complexity of the inlet duct geometry but to be fair, there are too few information regarding the inlet design of the F-22 or the F-35. One could guess based on the bulkhead geometries of those aircrafts, but an educated guess based on those open-source information point towards a very mature serpentine duct design inside the KF-21.

 

[FoodSoldier]

When Turkiye bought F16, did they came out without Radar too because Turkiye isn't a partner in development of AN/APG-68 radar?

And why do we need to pay $2 billion when we don’t need to pay anything and can just buy the end product instead?

you pay $2 billion to get knowledge about the radar and can build something (software) yourself on top of it.

 

[Windchime]

And why do we need to pay $2 billion when we don’t need to pay anything and can just buy the end product instead?

you pay $2 billion to get knowledge about the radar and can build something (software) yourself on top of it.

You'd know that Indonesia is not paying for the radar technology in the first place. It's malicious to try shifting the goalpost to derail the discussion. Also, go find a country that will sell state-of-the-art airborne multifunction AESA technology for mere $2 billion. You'll find none.

 

[Umigami]

And why do we need to pay $2 billion when we don’t need to pay anything and can just buy the end product instead?

you pay $2 billion to get knowledge about the radar and can build something (software) yourself on top of it.

Ask this to the one who handle negotiation back in SBY administration. They were the one who signed the clause that 4 "teknologi inti" won't be included in ToT.

 

[Gary]

And why do we need to pay $2 billion

Because we got the right to assemble 50 jets

 

[Parry Brima]

Then they will turn to other options I mentioned or maybe they will try for TF-X, but the mass production date may be a little late for them. I don't know what are the urgent requirements.

Turkey will start replacing F-16 with TF-X from 2030, right? That's probably about the time when we start to receive KFX (the actual jets that we originally plan to buy, not the prototype)

The KF-21 is never intended to be a true VLO 5th gen aircraft, for the RoKAF, this is intended to replace the many F-5s and F-4s in their fleet. Its never intended to replace the F-35 to be their true 5th gen fighter, instead it is to complement the F-35 and to grow the RoK aviation industry. RCS wise its comparable to a Rafale.

The only attractive aspect of KFX is because they will develop it into 5th gen in the next blocks (block 3/4?). If it's basically buying Rafale then why we should wait until 2030.

And why do we need to pay $2 billion when we don’t need to pay anything and can just buy the end product instead?

That's right. $2 bil should give us 28 KFX jets (refers to $70 mil price quoted). You don't need to add another $2 bil to get your 40 engineers working there. In fact you should get offset business from KAI from buying their jets.

 

[Gary]

Exactly. Though a discussion about RCS could only be held when we compare the models of the two aircraft with EM structural analysis tool. On the surface at least the KF-21 has a more refined stealth design since there is a decade of design philosophy evolution between the two aircraft. (one is essentially a 7/80's design philosophy while the other is 8/90's)

True, but lack the access to any hard data based on anechoic chamber testing, I could only give the number the Koreans wants us to believe which stands at 1m^2. But yeah I could see some attention to reduce radar reflections mainly in the nosecone, underbody and inlet design

I guess by complexity you mean the complexity of the inlet duct geometry but to be fair, there are too few information regarding the inlet design of the F-22 or the F-35. One could guess based on the bulkhead geometries of those aircrafts, but an educated guess based on those open-source information point towards a very mature serpentine duct design inside the KF-21.

My point is a response to post #8492 which says that larger engine must correlate with larger radar returns which is not completely correct, maybe in the past when stealth is not an issue this is the case, but the F-22/35 uses the F119 and its sibling F135 engine which is larger and sucks more air than the slim F414.

The refinement on the inlet design is nothing new, the F/A-18 Super Hornet has a refined inlet design to reduce blade radar returns. How much does it reduce in regards to cost is everybody's best guess. The KF-21 being a product of post stealth design is dictated to input many radar returns reductions in its design. Based on cost alone its clear cut that the KF-21 wont have the same radar blade returns minimalization as the inlet design of the -22/35s. I mean sure Korea could do that but my guessing tells me that it correlate with an increase in cost.

 

[Gary]

oh one more thing you don't get radar technologies for $2Billion just like you wont get a rolls royce for $20K. Especially when the radar here is a GaN based AESA with LPI capabilities.

As I said all ToT ends with manufacturing engineering (ME), the radar and its development is part of the design engineering. No one is dumb enough to sell you one.

 

[AzeriTank]

True, but lack the access to any hard data based on anechoic chamber testing, I could only give the number the Koreans wants us to believe which stands at 1m^2. But yeah I could see some attention to reduce radar reflections mainly in the nosecone, underbody and inlet design

My point is a response to post #8492 which says that larger engine must correlate with larger radar returns which is not completely correct, maybe in the past when stealth is not an issue this is the case, but the F-22/35 uses the F119 and its sibling F135 engine which is larger and sucks more air than the slim F414.

The refinement on the inlet design is nothing new, the F/A-18 Super Hornet has a refined inlet design to reduce blade radar returns. How much does it reduce in regards to cost is everybody's best guess. The KF-21 being a product of post stealth design is dictated to input many radar returns reductions in its design. Based on cost alone its clear cut that the KF-21 wont have the same radar blade returns minimalization as the inlet design of the -22/35s. I mean sure Korea could do that but my guessing tells me that it correlate with an increase in cost.

f35 use fifth generation engine, but kf21 use 4th generation engine, there is also difference there as those turbofan blades could reflect the radar signature

 

[AzeriTank]

oh one more thing you don't get radar technologies for $2Billion just like you wont get a rolls royce for $20K. Especially when the radar here is a GaN based AESA with LPI capabilities.

As I said all ToT ends with manufacturing engineering (ME), the radar and its development is part of the design engineering. No one is dumb enough to sell you one.

Why do you guys try to change my word? It is super clear, if Indonesia will not recieve the jet with latest technology( i dont say the tot but a jet with Aesa radar, latest eo, in 2030(8 years later) what is the point to purchase it and spend all this money? Without those tech, in todays ew warfare, it will not be able to fight against others. Come on, just think about it. Wouldnt you just get a jet who sells Aesa radar jet to you?

 

[Parry Brima]

Because we got the right to assemble 50 jets

This one here has been the most interesting part of any KFX news since many years ago. Unfortunately, it's been lacking in details.

Many questions like do we have to pay another $3.5 bil ($70m/jet) to the Koreans for this 50 jets?

Can we sell this 50 jets to other countries? Do we get 20% profit for each jet produced?

The Koreans plan to produce 120 jets until 2032, does it mean we'll get $1.7 bil from this alone?

etc

 

[Umigami]

Why do you guys try to change my word? It is super clear, if Indonesia will not recieve the jet with latest technology( i dont say the tot but a jet with Aesa radar, latest eo, in 2030(8 years later) what is the point to purchase it and spend all this money? Without those tech, in todays ew warfare, it will not be able to fight against others. Come on, just think about it. Wouldnt you just get a jet who sells Aesa radar jet to you?

not the latest Radar, Eo, etc ?
could you tell us where you get this information?
So Korea will develope downgrade version of their Radar, RF jammer, EOTGP, etc for Indonesia or export version?

and about engine blade, they are hidden:

 

[urban mine]

What the hell is this...does this forum have the ability to block people I don't want to see? Or a function that calls for some mediator.

 

[Gary]

Why do you guys try to change my word? It is super clear, if Indonesia will not recieve the jet with latest technology( i dont say the tot but a jet with Aesa radar, latest eo, in 2030(8 years later) what is the point to purchase it and spend all this money? Without those tech, in todays ew warfare, it will not be able to fight against others. Come on, just think about it. Wouldnt you just get a jet who sells Aesa radar jet to you?

I don't know which part did I change any words, but when the KFX program started the South Koreans initially sought uncle Sam help for the development of the radar, they refused and SoKor decide to go develop their own. From the very start our involvement is to help finance the project and in return have the right to assemble 50 jets in return as well as the participation of our engineers as part of upskilling. This type of cooperation is all well with the last admin, but not quite with the current admin.

The jets we will receive will totally be equipped with the Korean developed radars (and its EO is actually Italian), but we don't really get the know how on those technologies.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592920995505242112

 

[Umigami]

@urban mine , Do you know Boramae combat range with internal fuel alone and in almost clean configuration?
How is it compare to F35 (in term of combat range)?