Indonesia Indonesian Army,Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Darat (TNI-AD)

[Umigami]

Those who ever complain about Harimau being too tall (2.456m turret top height) or hull look so big, should look at Sabrah light tank (ASCOD) owned by the Philippines.

My complain is its frontal armour is too thin

 

[Van Kravchenko]

My complain is its frontal armour is too thin

Yep, any 30 mm+ will do. Just ask them to add more applique armor, so that can also act as counterweight.

 

[Umigami]

Yep, any 30 mm+ will do. Just ask them to add more applique armor, so that can also act as counterweight.

Why Army felt enough with Stanag level 5/6 though?

 

[Gary]

Those who ever complain about Harimau being too tall (2.456m turret top height) or hull look so big, should look at Sabrah light tank (ASCOD) owned by the Philippines.

The Harimau is tall and Sabrah being even taller doesn't make the excuse. Design tradeoffs, meant that in certain tank v tank warfare the Harimau will be at quite a disadvantage by being larger target while maybe having better performance in certain mission.

The MGS in comparison with taller Western person.

 

[Umigami]

The Harimau is tall and Sabrah being even taller doesn't make the excuse. Design tradeoffs, meant that in certain tank v tank warfare the Harimau will be at quite a disadvantage by being larger target while maybe having better performance in certain mission.

The MGS in comparison with taller Western person.

That's because Harimau use Cockerill 105hp turret that need tall hull to accommodate its turret basket. They even need to put "neck" on Leopard 1 hull.

 

[Gary]

That's because Harimau use Cockerill 105hp turret that need tall hull to accommodate its turret basket. They even need to put "neck" on Leopard 1 hull.

Yeah I could understand with an MBT, All MBT have one thing in common. They're low profile. You could see the difference in hull height here between a Leo 2 and Puma.

Cockerill 3000 series seems to be designed with IFV retrofitted into a tank killer in mind. Being compatible with 30/35mm autocannon

So why are we going with Cockerill 3000 then lets say taking other option ? Hitfact MK2 seems a better option, fit for low profile Centauro MGS.

Imo, Harimau is not that refined when compared to "true" medium tanks out there like the Type 15 or the MPF.

 

[Umigami]

Hitfact MK2 seems a better option, fit for low profile Centauro MGS

Centauro is low profile?
What are you talking about?
It's much higher than Harimau.

If we go with MPF mind set, Cockerill turret is better actually. Its depression and elevation for example.

 

[Gary]

Centauro is low profile?
What are you talking about?
It's much higher than Harimau.

my bad, low profile is an excess here.

he turret basket on the Hitfact is not that tall

In fact it doesn't need additional neck when installed on a Leo1

Again design tradeoffs, the MPF (Griffin III) would have been harder to detect and hit compared to the Harimau
While in the MPF (BAe) the turret are so far forward hull down position will be excellent.

 

[Umigami]

my bad, low profile is an excess here.

he turret basket on the Hitfact is not that tall

In fact it doesn't need additional neck when installed on a Leo1

Again design tradeoffs, the MPF (Griffin III) would have been harder to detect and hit compared to the Harimau
While in the MPF (BAe) the turret are so far forward hull down position will be excellent.

So, what we gonna do with Harimau now?
Keep buying it? Revised the design? Ditch it and buy better med tank?

 

[R4duga]

So, what we gonna do with Harimau now?
Keep buying it? Revised the design? Ditch it and buy better med tank?

or follow what ismail demir said, i remember that he said FNSS would like to developed indigenous turret, back during the first batch of hull delivery ceremony.

 

[Umigami]

or follow what ismail demir said, i remember that he said FNSS would like to developed indigenous turret, back during the first batch of hull delivery ceremony.

Is the turret really the problem here?
I mean, It isn't bad actually. We still gonna end up with tall, under armored hull.

 

[Madokafc]

If it is up to me, better to go to another batches of Harimau and fixed the few glitches in the design. Harimau is not being used as frontline armor just like a full fledged MBT as they would serve as another Firing Support platform, capable to firing direct and indirect fire. We are taking everything so slow, and it is made me quite itching

 

[Umigami]

Up armored hull frontal armor to Level 6 package and use 16 rounds ammo storage for turret.

 

[Van Kravchenko]

Why Army felt enough with Stanag level 5/6 though?

Because doctrine and task wise, the're build to handle soft target and soft skinned armor. It mean to be firepower multiplier not TvT battle.

tank v tank

What Tank vs Tank ? Can you elaborate more? Coz at first place even Harimau have capability to penetrate adversaries armor doesn't mean it have to. They're build to be firepower multiplier to walk along infantry let alone TvT battle handle by MBT since why they build for ?

larger target

From what ? Trucks ? Cars ?
Those what so called Light/Medium tanks out at the market roughly at same size.

They're low profile

Yeah, Leo2 at 3m tall, abrams 2,5m, MPF at 2,8m and so on. Im just try to guessing why so much people obsessed with lowprofile while you have not enough DEPRESSION and sighting to handle the situation.

refined when compared to "true" medium tanks out there like the Type 15 or the MPF.

I thought it was M4 sherman, Pz IV, PZ V, Chi Ha, Comet, etc that considered pure Meds ?

That two tanks you mentioned earlier have same purpouse, that to bring firepower ASAP before main body army arrive (or bring guns where the big guns can't)

never intended to do TvT at any mean, and also why people always overrated about type 15? I suspect that was advanced development of Type 62 with different suspension.

All right, at least for fair discussion why one tank is better than another i think we might need to provide some data, such as armor, FCS, imaging, etc.

So, what we gonna do with Harimau now?
Keep buying it? Revised the design? Ditch it and buy better med tank?

Just bought Harimau to replace AMX 13 and Scorponox please, thus we can still bam bam bam enemy tank 12 time before hiding. Since CT CV3105 use 105 nato, it will enough to butter right through any side of MBTs.

 

[Umigami]

Because doctrine and task wise, the're build to handle soft target and soft skinned armor.

But even Soft skinned armor vehicles have pretty nasty auto cannon these days (> 35 mm).
The most probable adversary Harimau likely to meet frequently in battlefields are another MPF-like Tanks.

What Tank vs Tank ? Can you elaborate more? Coz at first place even Harimau have capability to penetrate adversaries armor doesn't mean it have to. They're build to be firepower multiplier to walk along infantry let alone TvT battle handle by MBT since why they build for ?

I hope we got those Mecar M1060A3 APFSDS-T for real

you have not enough DEPRESSION and sighting to handle the situation.

I realize Cockerill 105HP isn't a bad choice afterall. Its depression and elevation is a big factor to fight in Hilly or Urban warfare. When Russian proudly showcase their Terminator BMPT, we already have our answer here.

Btw, this is a repost but I'll post it again.

 

[Madokafc]

But even Soft skinned armor vehicles have pretty nasty auto cannon these days (> 35 mm).
The most probable adversary Harimau likely to meet frequently in battlefields are another MPF-like Tanks.


I hope we got those Mecar M1060A3 APFSDS-T for real


I realize Cockerill 105HP isn't a bad choice afterall. Its depression and elevation is a big factor to fight in Hilly or Urban warfare. When Russian proudly showcase their Terminator BMPT, we already have our answer here.

Btw, this is a repost but I'll post it again.
View attachment 53576

there is a reason why the call to get another MBT is quite high nowadays, the Army want real meatshield just like the Leopard 2, if you want to get a battlefield breakthrough, proper armored units is a must, and MBT is the real meatshield you can depend upon

Remind me again, those Harimau is already good as it is, with 105 mm gun for infantry support, in the place where logistic footprint is very demanding.

So it would be High and Low combination in the end, in which their deployment would be depend on the threat level perception and the need on the field.

 

[Madokafc]

Might as well up armored Badak and AMX 13 while at it

Badak is not much being looked upon by Cavalryman actually, those 90 mm low pressured gun is already dated

AMX 13 is too small, to archaic and to rebuild them just like the previous modernized AMX 13 is already expensive, it is much better to bought new MBT afterall and you can use them to another century or at least by 2083, if you are looking on how Indonesian Army already using AMX 13 since 1960 and now already 2023, that's already 63 years for god sake !!!

 

[Umigami]

there is a reason why the call to get another MBT is quite high nowadays

KMW with their Leo 2 is leading I guess

 

[ardezzo]

KMW with their Leo 2 is leading I guess

With europe feel being threatened right now, I assume the queue for Leo 2 will be long. What about K2?

Badak is not much being looked upon by Cavalryman actually, those 90 mm low pressured gun is already dated

IMO it's better to just change the spec of badak into an IFV, with 30mm cannon.

 

[Lordimperator]

With europe feel being threatened right now, I assume the queue for Leo 2 will be long. What about K2?

What about volatile tension on Korean peninsula affecting the industrial capacity?