Indonesian Politics (History, Issue, culture etc)

[Umigami]

Israel Ingin Buka Hubungan dengan RI, Kemlu Membantah

Israel tengah berupaya untuk melakukan normalisasi hubungan dengan Indonesia dan Oman, setelah berhasil melakukan normalisasi dengan sejumlah negara.

m.cnnindonesia.com

that was quick

Cnbc article is newer. If they already "membantah" why it keep coming up?

 

[Madokafc]

There is no reason I see Indonesia and Malaysia continue non-recognition of Israel.

The issue is literally on other side of world.

Countries need to think in nationalist terms first (what is their best interests for them), not this religion-identity thing across countries. That just open up lot of can of worms, as to where that start and ends to be consistent on it.

Is Indonesia or any muslim majority country going to drop recognition of PRC because of uighur treatment?...and leave all the advantages to having a recognition/relationship with PRC (esp because of its economy) behind?

If not, why not? Why Israel singled out specifically (esp given it literally has muslim arabs in its democratic parliament who themselves voice concerns all the time regarding palestine issues)?

It all need not mean you bring up concern on the issue as you want to past the political recognition + basic relations set up.

South East Asian muslim majority countries are so different in their cultural, historical and national set up past to anything you find say between indus to nile and then across sahara. Yet one part of identity triumphs the others to extreme extent of geopolitical +foreign relations realm...to follow the leader kind of thing in this very different stretch of the world? Not even going to bring up basic Indonesia population size and it should be the leader, rather than follow some group of much tinier but loud-mouth countries.

/rant

That's a long story all the way from Soekarno era, when he is trying to lobbying many middle east countries for Indonesian cause over West Papua issue and diplomatic struggle against Netherland. He is cited Indonesia preambule Indonesia constitution 1945, in which stated "Kemerdekaan adalah hak segala bangsa" that's including support for Palestine cause to gain their freedom from what perceived Israel colonialism in modern era. Soekarno itself known quite close with Gammal Abdul Nasser and one can see how Egypt and Israel relationship at the time and his Pan Arabism is matchmade with Soekarno Nasionalisme value.

And at the time Indonesian support over Palestine issue is not much talking about religion but Nationalist issue, as our always proposed two state solution over Palestine and Israel. Not so much over Jerusalem issue and Aqsha mosque, in which actually is the rights of Jordania in the first place, nor Israel or Palestine like what layman people feel today, including religion aspirations. Today Islamist political party always bring Israel Palestine issue as religion conflict and that's excercebated the perception of Indonesian people regarding the issue into wrong way.

As a notes, Indonesia actually under Abdurrahman Wahid had started to engage Israel more closely and trying to open the possibility of normalization of both country relationship.

Myself is supporter of two Nation solution and that's can't be achieved unless Indonesia starting to engage Israel as a normal country and Made proper dialogue against them in formal setting. There is no way Israel willing to engage Indonesia over Palestine issue without Indonesia recognize them in the first place.

 

[Madokafc]

And for notes, nominally and actually Israel as a country is much more decent compared to many of absolute dictatorial Arabs countries and atheist communist countries like Saudi, Syrian, China, North Korea or even imperialist modern Russia who suppress their minority and destroying church or mosque of different sects alike. Modern Indonesia had more like minded issue and can cooperate further with many similarities of both country.

 

[Nilgiri]

That's a long story all the way from Soekarno era, when he is trying to lobbying many middle east countries for Indonesian cause over West Papua issue and diplomatic struggle against Netherland. He is cited Indonesia preambule Indonesia constitution 1945, in which stated "Kemerdekaan adalah hak segala bangsa" that's including support for Palestine cause to gain their freedom from what perceived Israel colonialism in modern era. Soekarno itself known quite close with Gammal Abdul Nasser and one can see how Egypt and Israel relationship at the time and his Pan Arabism is matchmade with Soekarno Nasionalisme value.

View attachment 8651

And at the time Indonesian support over Palestine issue is not much talking about religion but Nationalist issue, as our always proposed two state solution over Palestine and Israel. Not so much over Jerusalem issue and Aqsha mosque, in which actually is the rights of Jordania in the first place, nor Israel or Palestine like what layman people feel today, including religion aspirations. Today Islamist political party always bring Israel Palestine issue as religion conflict and that's excercebated the perception of Indonesian people regarding the issue into wrong way.

As a notes, Indonesia actually under Abdurrahman Wahid had started to engage Israel more closely and trying to open the possibility of normalization of both country relationship.

Myself is supporter of two Nation solution and that's can't be achieved unless Indonesia starting to engage Israel as a normal country and Made proper dialogue against them in formal setting. There is no way Israel willing to engage Indonesia over Palestine issue without Indonesia recognize them in the first place.

Yes India followed this line of thinking (support to Palestinian nationhood) during cold war era as well (and it continues to this day i.e 2 state solution).

But it didn't stop India from recognising Israel in 1950 (because I see Nehru in that picture too hehe).

What India did do was tailor this to its interests in cold war, as diplomatic relations was put on hold with Israel, as we see larger advantage to pursuing relations with Arab world and also USSR bloc (which was more pro-Palestine) for various reasons.

More context I posted elsewhere: https://defencehub.live/threads/why-pakistan-will-be-next-to-normalize-with-israel.3526/#post-34169

But after cold war ended, India very quickly established official relations and work a lot to develop them with Israel.....there was little to no blowback from Arab world (w.r.t our workers in Gulf etc) as they simply recognised India is too large to mutually exclude on basis of its Israel relations (esp given arab countries at that point also were starting their own underground relations with Israel as palestine peace process moved forward).

India never abandoned support to Palestinian cause to establish their own state, Indonesia can simply do the same....and that is for Israel and Palestine to work out between themselves. you simply recognise both parties and conduct relations with both.

I feel Indonesia is also large enough to have done this policy back then (in 90s)...and definitely now its overdue to put this issue to rest now and get benefits of having an official relationship with Israel.

And for notes, nominally and actually Israel as a country is much more decent compared to many of absolute dictatorial Arabs countries and atheist communist countries like Saudi, Syrian, China, North Korea or even imperialist modern Russia who suppress their minority and destroying church or mosque of different sects alike. Modern Indonesia had more like minded issue and can cooperate further with many similarities of both country.

Actually I have read at extended depth more than my own normal (for matters that interest me) on Israel in nearly every realm.

For example, there was a good book on 1967 war that not only talked about the war itself but also the politics within Israel at the time shaping the young country and providing a huge debate inside it about where its headed and where to go.

People often assume Israel is a monolith "Jewish state"....but in that book it explored the huge process going on given it's democratic setup. There was a lot of details given on the intense debates between political leaders and factions of the time as to the demographic future of Israel (even just considering Jews)....as to the ashkenazi (european) jewish setup and majority...the increasing sephardic + mizrahim immigration to Israel (jews that often many times were forced out of the arab countries they had long called home) and the fears regarding this from the ashkenazi when the latter groups become inevitable majority. There was lot of concern about what their (mizrahi) vision is compared to ashkenazi vision for Israel etc.

This debate then continued w.r.t the arabs that now lived within Israel territory at the time, whether to and then how to incorporate them into the political process and setup of Israel.

Now it is interesting to contrast the downstream reality (Sephardic + Mizrahim are now long since the majority of Israel population compared to Ashkenazi "pioneers + elites" and Israeli Arabs...20% of population of Israel.... are integrated into the political process and have their parties and spokespeople and so on).

All these exist in every country, these issues, for various reasons and contexts. But how you approach dealing with it boldy and with trust and honesty....is what separates genuine democracy from authoritarian/totaitarian extremism...which so often the case is the more convenient pick, often ironically by the very govts that detest or criticize Israel the most.

 

[trishna_amrta]

As much I welcome normalization with Israel I just don't see how are they going to do it. I really like Kosher equipments (have few here privately bought) and so does many others Indonesian also like Kosher stuffs (I'm will not tell what they are) without them knowing / aware of its origin

 

[schuimpjes]

"Indonesia will Normalized Relation with Israel"

BAKIN (now BIN), be like,

 

[whatintarnation]

Israel Ingin Buka Hubungan dengan RI, Kemlu Membantah

Israel tengah berupaya untuk melakukan normalisasi hubungan dengan Indonesia dan Oman, setelah berhasil melakukan normalisasi dengan sejumlah negara.

www.cnnindonesia.com

 

[whatintarnation]

This noises are getting louder, many big name news agencies reporting about it.

If it's happen, looks like we will see the tears of the anti semitics.

You think not recognizing Israel is anti-semitism?

lol

It's anti-Zionism. The two terms are not the same.

 

[Umigami]

Israel Ingin Buka Hubungan dengan RI, Kemlu Membantah

Israel tengah berupaya untuk melakukan normalisasi hubungan dengan Indonesia dan Oman, setelah berhasil melakukan normalisasi dengan sejumlah negara.

www.cnnindonesia.com

View attachment 8654

Repost, cnbc article is more recent actually.

 

[whatintarnation]

Repost, cnbc article is more recent actually.

Let's just wait then.

 

[Logam42]

I agree. @Indos has presented his views quite well (his basis regarding personal vs public and also why it is wrong for the state to intervene punishment wise in personal matters given the large conundrum and grandiose imperfection of doing so when actions are say all-party voluntary-basis..."Shirk" is just one, but aptly put by him).

His contention is that punishments ought to be what is stipulated by a Sharia code (I am assuming criminal law only)...I have questions for him if he operate on moral/religious basis or majoritarian basis. Then maybe proceed to basis of severity requisite to crime etc.

People actually may also not know just how much of criminal law (punishment wise) in most countries (even staunchest secular ones today) traces back to religious basis, given religion was and arguably is the fountainhead of morality and its interpretation.

I would like to continue some of this discussion (queries etc with indos, and maybe it turns into something like a debate lets see),..esp regarding line and definition between criminal law and civil law applicability....is this decided depending on both (or all) parties in an action(s) being voluntary (thus civil realm) and thus an involuntary realm (regarding perpetration on one or more parties) is where criminal law applies? Or some other delineation? I believe this is the basis of what Indos is trying to get at when he says nothing should be compelled (w.r.t Islam).

I would suggest @#comcom can move the appropriate posts, say from #59 to #81 to this thread (and maybe pin it if relevant) as that thread (I quote you from) is about Indonesian Law Enforcement rather than Indonesian Law itself (which is political realm so fits here better I feel). The chronological order of posts will be preserved by post moving so should be no issue.

I also have some questions on the origins of Sharia (if people are knowledgeable and inclined to discuss).

Is every bit of sharia, Fiqh etc strictly traced to Quran and Hadith? Do they cover all crime known/present today in current world. If not, how would (or could) a Sharia system expand?

Some of the answers here I have already formed a basis and understanding on btw, I would just like to see how some others approach and answer this to take conversation forward.

Let me also tag @Saiyan0321 @Saithan @Joe Shearer if they are interested to participate or read.

Would just like to note that while I don't hv the expertise to talk about this issue in depth @Indos is definitely right on the issue that we need to update our criminal law code.

This is a fact almost all sides of the equation agree to. The judges, the lawyers, the gov, and even the general public. Our criminal code is ancient and full of band-aid fixes that at the moment our judiciary is ruled more by tradition and bureaucracy than anything else. Even the Dutch (who we base our code on) hv radically changed their criminal code in the 7 decades since independence. Worse, our criminal code is to an extent based on dutch Colonial criminal code, which translates to... a heavy focus on retributive justice even for light crimes.

Pronblem is our legislature is so incompetent and riddled with authoritarian islamist that no one trusts them to draft the replacement laws

Hence why while I don't see eye to eye with Indos on what the changes should be, I agree change needs to happen. I should also note that his stance is rather unique in that he seems to only want to implement sharia law in terms of strict criminal code instead of having it implemented as a morality code as in Aceh.

 

[schuimpjes]

You think not recognizing Israel is anti-semitism?

lol

It's anti-Zionism. The two terms are not the same.

Hmm.. I'm not referring someone that not recognizing Israel as anti- semitics.

I just said the anti- semitics will feel sad by that (not in the literal meaning....... wkwk).

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes India followed this line of thinking (support to Palestinian nationhood) during cold war era as well (and it continues to this day i.e 2 state solution).

But it didn't stop India from recognising Israel in 1950 (because I see Nehru in that picture too hehe).

What India did do was tailor this to its interests in cold war, as diplomatic relations was put on hold with Israel, as we see larger advantage to pursuing relations with Arab world and also USSR bloc (which was more pro-Palestine) for various reasons.

More context I posted elsewhere: https://defencehub.live/threads/why-pakistan-will-be-next-to-normalize-with-israel.3526/#post-34169

But after cold war ended, India very quickly established official relations and work a lot to develop them with Israel.....there was little to no blowback from Arab world (w.r.t our workers in Gulf etc) as they simply recognised India is too large to mutually exclude on basis of its Israel relations (esp given arab countries at that point also were starting their own underground relations with Israel as palestine peace process moved forward).

India never abandoned support to Palestinian cause to establish their own state, Indonesia can simply do the same....and that is for Israel and Palestine to work out between themselves. you simply recognise both parties and conduct relations with both.

I feel Indonesia is also large enough to have done this policy back then (in 90s)...and definitely now its overdue to put this issue to rest now and get benefits of having an official relationship with Israel.




Actually I have read at extended depth more than my own normal (for matters that interest me) on Israel in nearly every realm.

For example, there was a good book on 1967 war that not only talked about the war itself but also the politics within Israel at the time shaping the young country and providing a huge debate inside it about where its headed and where to go.

People often assume Israel is a monolith "Jewish state"....but in that book it explored the huge process going on given it's democratic setup. There was a lot of details given on the intense debates between political leaders and factions of the time as to the demographic future of Israel (even just considering Jews)....as to the ashkenazi (european) jewish setup and majority...the increasing sephardic + mizrahim immigration to Israel (jews that often many times were forced out of the arab countries they had long called home) and the fears regarding this from the ashkenazi when the latter groups become inevitable majority. There was lot of concern about what their (mizrahi) vision is compared to ashkenazi vision for Israel etc.

This debate then continued w.r.t the arabs that now lived within Israel territory at the time, whether to and then how to incorporate them into the political process and setup of Israel.

Now it is interesting to contrast the downstream reality (Sephardic + Mizrahim are now long since the majority of Israel population compared to Ashkenazi "pioneers + elites" and Israeli Arabs...20% of population of Israel.... are integrated into the political process and have their parties and spokespeople and so on).

All these exist in every country, these issues, for various reasons and contexts. But how you approach dealing with it boldy and with trust and honesty....is what separates genuine democracy from authoritarian/totaitarian extremism...which so often the case is the more convenient pick, often ironically by the very govts that detest or criticize Israel the most.

Personally, I deeply regret the drifting away of Israel from the Mapai and its ideals. Can't stand Likud oafs and barbarians.

 

[ThomasJog]

Youve already displayed your lack of knowledge of Christianity and politics here on the NT Rust. You have no leg to stand on in either of those two realms. Leave these discussions to the adults ok? Thatd be great, thanks.

 

[R4duga]

Youve already displayed your lack of knowledge of Christianity and politics here on the NT Rust. You have no leg to stand on in either of those two realms. Leave these discussions to the adults ok? Thatd be great, thanks.

try to use reply function , it's hard to understand who are you referring to if you didn't use that features .

 

[Gundala]

There is no reason I see Indonesia and Malaysia continue non-recognition of Israel.

The issue is literally on other side of world.

Countries need to think in nationalist terms first (what is their best interests for them), not this religion-identity thing across countries. That just open up lot of can of worms, as to where that start and ends to be consistent on it.

Is Indonesia or any muslim majority country going to drop recognition of PRC because of uighur treatment?...and leave all the advantages to having a recognition/relationship with PRC (esp because of its economy) behind?

If not, why not? Why Israel singled out specifically (esp given it literally has muslim arabs in its democratic parliament who themselves voice concerns all the time regarding palestine issues)?

It all need not mean you stop bringing up concern on the issue as you want to... past the political recognition + basic relations set up.

South East Asian muslim majority countries are so different in their cultural, historical and national set up past to anything you find say between indus to nile and then across sahara. Yet one part of identity triumphs the others to extreme extent of geopolitical +foreign relations realm...to follow the leader kind of thing in this very different stretch of the world? Not even going to bring up basic Indonesia population size and it should be the leader, rather than follow some group of much tinier but loud-mouth countries.

/rant

This is my rant;

Its called doctrinization. Not sure when or how it started but surely not formaly by the government. Decades later it becomes political baggage on each regime in power, but it also can be powerful political tools to gain support. I have watched video on how kids who are no older then junior high students being told that Israel is their enemy, Im pretty sure they dont tell the history about the war nor how they got Palestine in the first place.

This is just how I see it, it may or may not be the truth tho some leaders such as our former late president Gus Dur had shown that he is willing to open trade with Israel. I do believe there are more that share the same view but this issue has develop into sensitive issue now and it may take generations to reverse the effect.

 

[Nilgiri]

Personally, I deeply regret the drifting away of Israel from the Mapai and its ideals. Can't stand Likud oafs and barbarians.

Long story in itself... Israel labour did lot of goof ups (but who didn't?), huge swathes of Israeli public lost confidence in the old stewardship ( meir et al. at the time) after Yom Kippur war...it served as opening for the old irgun cadre like Begin....and Likud story starts there more or less (consolidating all the right splinter groups).

Begin got a huge boost when Sadat saw him as credible party to sign peace deal with (precisely because Begin was "new" and was on the right so any peace deal would hold up for the rest of the disposition).

After this all kind of parties and leaders filled old socks and went running a bit differently now that Egypt (and Jordan) were out of the existential threat picture and the left-economic model was starting to stagnate, a new quagmire opening up in Lebanon and the reagan era consolidated certain political structures for the next few decades.

There is a massive irony behind this all as always....if you explore the (essentially peace-oriented) persona of folks like Gurion, Meir, Eshkol, Yigal, Peres and even Rabin (the many debates and interplay they had between themselves too on what Israel fundamentally ought to be and become), their early lives specifically.....and contrast them with folks like Begin, Shamir and Sharon (though Sharon was very complicated fellow let me say that)....and of course Barak and Bibi.

But so often the case, the less-inherently-peaceful folks are often seen as more credible by the outsiders to deal with (in making peace ironically)...because the peaceful-types are fighting us anyway (and whats the deal with that?...thats on them not us, we're the cleanest, honest folks etc)

This all imposes heavily on small country like Israel.

 

[Indos]

Current Government stance on Palestinian issue can be perfectly seen in this speech. Indonesia is even ready to challenge USA in the Palestinian-Israel conflict issue, so we can see how deep is the support from this stance alone.

The support from Indonesian general public is overwhelming from comments section

 

[Nilgiri]

I honestly had no idea that Rabin stopped over in INA for 1 hour visit or so with Suharto:

Oman, Indonesia likely next countries to forge ties with Israel

Netanyahu visited Oman in 2018 and met with then-leader Sultan Qaboos, Rabin visited Indonesia in 1993.

www.jpost.com

Rabin Makes Surprise Visit to Indonesia, Singapore

JAKARTA (AP) _ Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin extended his hand to holdouts against friendly ties with Israel on Friday in a surprise visit to Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim country. ''It is important to tell (the nonaligned states) of the opportunities of cooperation with...

apnews.com

 

[Madokafc]

I honestly had no idea that Rabin stopped over in INA for 1 hour visit or so with Suharto:

Oman, Indonesia likely next countries to forge ties with Israel

Netanyahu visited Oman in 2018 and met with then-leader Sultan Qaboos, Rabin visited Indonesia in 1993.

www.jpost.com

Rabin Makes Surprise Visit to Indonesia, Singapore

JAKARTA (AP) _ Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin extended his hand to holdouts against friendly ties with Israel on Friday in a surprise visit to Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim country. ''It is important to tell (the nonaligned states) of the opportunities of cooperation with...

apnews.com

No one can said no or shown their displeasure against Soeharto at the time.