Indonesia Indonesian Strategic Industries

[Madokafc]

Btw don't get me wrong,

i am all for "kemandirian alutsista" but in truest sense even had better and greater dreams, in aeronautical sector Indonesia should mastering all of the critical core technology needed, even to produce and manufacturing the turbine Engine, radar, Missiles and other components. Indonesia had more access to the technology source compared to the China to say, it is pity we don't have the guts to change the pattern and got a broader picture.

Indonesia already manufacturing and producing NC212 and CN 235 for decades or years but we still don't provided the components from Indonesian source, at least trying to license producing the engine first. Then trying to outsourcing and licence producing the radar components from Indonesian companies which had partner from aboard. Indonesia still doesn't have complete chain industries needed for aircraft production even for something we already assemble for four decades!!! That's mean our situation in aviation technology is not much better compared to the early Soeharto era, maybe worse if we are looking from our economy situation in which already much better compared to back then.

Then this KFX IFX projects actually give much alteration toward our aviation technology and the mastering process? And how it is trying to answered the critical question like how much our level of involvement in the projects? How much local content Indonesia side actually had bar the designing and assembly works? Can Indonesia developed the needed technology included in fighter technology in house?

This KFX project actually unwarranted and shoved from the top to the bottom during previous administration, Indonesian industry and research agency at the time actually prefer Indonesia developed jet powered light aircraft to be used as trainer and light attack aircraft. The previous efforts is to partnered with Yugoslavia Aeronautical technology institute and SOKO manufacturing, well Yugoslavia is no more in early 1990, then Habibie proceed with license producing the Hawk 109/209 with great number supposed to be built in Indonesia including the manufacturing assembly of the Turbomeca adour engine, alas the political and economy situation Made the plan is aborted.

Then they are trying to get independent projects being done with foreign partner assistance just like how HAL industry partnered with Kurt Tank to develop Hal Marut.

 

[Madokafc]

You are famous as the opposition of Indonesia continuation on this program, you have been in debate with me about this since in PDF and then continue in Defense Hub. Just see what you wrote in March 2021 and I was there again to debate on you in that critical time. Both you and Ananda is in the same page on this issue and this is why you are against me once again in the issue.

You are working with foreign company OEM and I know where your interest lies.

Ironisnya Lockheed Martin itu partner utama KAI buat proyek KFX!!! if my conscience is biased toward LM instead of Indonesia, i would give this project full support. But alas it is not, as i know the inside of the projects much better than you that's why i keep the wary attitude

 

[R4duga]

Btw don't get me wrong,

i am all for "kemandirian alutsista" but in truest sense even had better and greater dreams, in aeronautical sector Indonesia should mastering all of the critical core technology needed, even to produce and manufacturing the turbine Engine, radar, Missiles and other components. Indonesia had more access to the technology source compared to the China to say, it is pity we don't have the guts to change the pattern and got a broader picture.

Indonesia already manufacturing and producing NC212 and CN 235 for decades or years but we still don't provided the components from Indonesian source, at least trying to license producing the engine first. Then trying to outsourcing and licence producing the radar components from Indonesian companies which had partner from aboard. Indonesia still doesn't have complete chain industries needed for aircraft production even for something we already assemble for four decades!!! That's mean our situation in aviation technology is not much better compared to the early Soeharto era, maybe worse if we are looking from our economy situation in which already much better compared to back then.

Then this KFX IFX projects actually give much alteration toward our aviation technology and the mastering process? And how it is trying to answered the critical question like how much our level of involvement in the projects? How much local content Indonesia side actually had bar the designing and assembly works? Can Indonesia developed the needed technology included in fighter technology in house?

This KFX project actually unwarranted and shoved from the top to the bottom during previous administration, Indonesian industry and research agency at the time actually prefer Indonesia developed jet powered light aircraft to be used as trainer and light attack aircraft. The previous efforts is to partnered with Yugoslavia Aeronautical technology institute and SOKO manufacturing, well Yugoslavia is no more in early 1990, then Habibie proceed with license producing the Hawk 109/209 with great number supposed to be built in Indonesia including the manufacturing assembly of the Turbomeca adour engine, alas the political and economy situation Made the plan is aborted.

Then they are trying to get independent projects being done with foreign partner assistance just like how HAL industry partnered with Kurt Tank to develop Hal Marut.

there's still galeb g-2 rotten in PT DI hangar somewhere we can't really do anything with it ?

i agree we should start with small thing, like try to replace cessna or that g120tp with locally made turboprop trainer aircraft.

 

[Indos]

Ironisnya Lockheed Martin itu partner utama KAI buat proyek KFX!!! if my conscience is biased toward LM instead of Indonesia, i would give this project full support. But alas it is not, as i know the inside of the projects much better than you that's why i keep the wary attitude

Nope, that is just your claim, I know very senior engineer of KF/IFX program and also the junior one and has long talk about the program with the very senior one. You even dont know TOT of Rafale detail.

The fact is if KF21/IFX program is inshaAllah successful then it will likely close many future opportunities of many foreign fighters OEM, not just Rafale but possible LM sales as well. We have the law that protect local defense equipment sales in the country against similar equipment from abroad.


----------------------------------------------------------

What I am writing is still proportional, I am refuting this Ananda claim that he makes over and over again in DT for many years under a protection of New Zealand and Singaporean Moderators.

Ananda comment on DT :

"The article above shown the reason why ROK still need to have Indonesia as Junior Partner. They need it to increase the production size and make Indonesia as their first 'captive' market. Nothing else."

---------------------------------------

This is the article he brought which doesnt even mention Indonesia. About other related to engineering contribution I have explained in previous post, so I dont want to repeat again.

Behold South Korea’s Very Expensive Stealth Fighter

For all its unsurprising features, the KF-X still is likely to cost a lot of money. And that should cast doubt on its future.

www.forbes.com

Even Korean opposition parliament member who has insider in DAPA Korea talk about Indonesian Aerospace engineering contribution as well.

"The opposition party said the South Korean government is only engaged in passive negotiation due to concern over possible obstacles or possible delay in the development of the fighter jet resulting from non-payment of contributions. In line with principle and common sense, one side should not be forced into unilateral concessions. We have to bring about a win-win situation,” Rep. Kang said.

Indonesia fails to execute KF-21 cost-sharing agreement

Indonesia had agreed to pay 20 percent of the cost for the development of South Korea’s KF-21 Boram…

www.donga.com

 

[Madokafc]

Nope, that is just your claim, I know very senior engineer of KF/IFX program and also the junior one and has long talk about the program with the very senior one. You even dont know TOT of Rafale detail.

The fact is if KF21/IFX program is inshaAllah successful than it will likely close many future opportunities of many foreign fighters OEM, not just Rafale but possible LM sales as well. We have the law that protect local defense equipment sales in the country against similar equipment from abroad.


----------------------------------------------------------

What I am writing is still proportional, I am refuting this Ananda claim that he makes over and over again in DT for many years under a protection of New Zealand and Singaporean Moderators.

Ananda comment on DT :

"The article above shown the reason why ROK still need to have Indonesia as Junior Partner. They need it to increase the production size and make Indonesia as their first 'captive' market. Nothing else."

---------------------------------------

This is the article he brought which doesnt even mention Indonesia. About other related to engineering contribution I have explained in previous post, so I dont want to repeat again. Even Korean opposition parliament member who has insider in DAPA Korea talk about Indonesian Aerospace engineering contribution as well.

"The opposition party said the South Korean government is only engaged in passive negotiation due to concern over possible obstacles or possible delay in the development of the fighter jet resulting from non-payment of contributions. In line with principle and common sense, one side should not be forced into unilateral concessions. We have to bring about a win-win situation,” Rep. Kang said.

Indonesia fails to execute KF-21 cost-sharing agreement

Indonesia had agreed to pay 20 percent of the cost for the development of South Korea’s KF-21 Boram…

www.donga.com

Behold South Korea’s Very Expensive Stealth Fighter

For all its unsurprising features, the KF-X still is likely to cost a lot of money. And that should cast doubt on its future.

www.forbes.com

Sometimes i am suspect you as KAI spokesperson in Indonesia, on their payroll or just to troll around here and give much false data. Either You are as clueless as a fuck or even worse concsiously omitted the details and only highlight what you want to convey but not tell the whole truth even the bitter ones!

Why don't mention the use of Indonesian "assembly lines" as parts maker but with only minuscule of projects percentage compared to Indonesia 20 percentage funds must provided.

------
I am no Dassault spokesperson lah so i don't know much about Rafale deals lol.

 

[NEKO]

Ananda

Why you need to bring the matter here? You could just have a debate with him in other website and keep it there.

 

[Madokafc]

Why you need to bring the matter here? You could just have a debate with him in other website and keep it there.

Actually he need some roasting here and there

 

[Indos]

Why you need to bring the matter here? You could just have a debate with him in other website and keep it there.

I am permanently banned there since I am the only member there that some time has heated debate with Ananda and he is protected by Mods. I dont want to create another account there, despite I never attack Mods there but I am banned because they dont like what I write

 

[NEKO]

I am permanently banned there since I am the only member there that some time has heated debate with Ananda and he is protected by Mods. I dont want to create another account there, despite I never attack Mods there but I am banned because they dont like what I write

Oh i see.

Any way both of you need to chill a bit, you guys need to learn from John Cena about doing some bing chilling.

My take in KFX-IFX: we should continue the program with SK.
SK don't need ID expertise for this project and they can do it alone while we can't make our own jet fighter on our own, yet we still can contribute to a certain degree.
Rather than technical expertise and support from what I see SK wants $ from ID, to help cover the development cost and at the same time secure first foreign order from ID.

 

[Madokafc]

Oh i see.

Any way both of you need to chill a bit, you guys need to learn from John Cena about doing some bing chilling.

My take in KFX-IFX: we should continue the program with SK.
SK don't need ID expertise for this project and they can do it alone while we can't make our own jet fighter on our own, yet we still can contribute to a certain degree.
Rather than technical expertise and support from what I see SK wants $ from ID, to help cover the development cost and at the same time secure first foreign order from ID.

I am royally chilling

 

[Lordimperator]

I am royally chilling

View attachment 33405

Dude, i dont realize that you are garfield

 

[Madokafc]

Btw, @Indos

ngatimozart and several mods in Defense talk is indeed dickhead and more leaned toward those SJW trash, and he doesn't fit to lead a forum as moderator with his narrow mindedness, trying to be smart but not and never playing argument in open like me and you. Especially when they are talking about Papua

 

[Indos]

Btw, @Indos

ngatimozart and several mods in Defense talk is indeed dickhead and more leaned toward those SJW trash, and he doesn't fit to lead a forum as moderator with his narrow mindedness, trying to be smart but not and never playing argument in open like me and you. Especially when they are talking about Papua

The site is under tight control of the moderators there, not easy to comment there, even we cannot make a speculative comment based on our analyst like what I had argument against Ananda and OPSSG (Singaporean moderator) that Indonesia can still buy Russia equipment if it is not big ticket one and means as supporting equipment. That is about a month before we bought Russian naval weapon for 2 KCR 60 ships and that is the reason I get permanent ban. My ID there is Ahmad.

My arguments are even erased by OPSSG on that debate and he even call me idiot despite I never use insulting words and debating using rational and examples.

They dont perma ban me right away but making my times there difficult as I have to provide link in any of my comment which is insulting actually for a member that has been present there since 2013 to be treated like that. This is why I dont want to be in that forum anymore using different ID to mask my previous present after I get permanen ban as I refuse to be controlled by them.

They will let members who can be inline with their narrative target. Australian and the surrounding wants to play down Indonesia actually, this is why in their Asia Power Index made by Lowy Institute Indonesia is put under Malaysia and put our technology scores behind Bangladesh to lower our scores based on their calculation.

 

[JATOSINT]

What other forum that you guys talking about?

 

[Lordimperator]

What other forum that you guys talking about?

Defence t a l k

 

[NEKO]

Australian and the surrounding wants to play down Indonesia actually, this is why in their Asia Power Index made by Lowy Institute Indonesia is put under Malaysia and put our technology scores behind Bangladesh to lower our scores based on their calculation.

That is not bad actually.
Even better if our military modernization also get played down.

 

[FPXAllen]

Defence t a l k

So I guess it's more like "Defence hush" then, especially for vocal members who dare to go against moderators' opinion there.

 

[Stuka Dive]

Btw don't get me wrong,

i am all for "kemandirian alutsista" but in truest sense even had better and greater dreams, in aeronautical sector Indonesia should mastering all of the critical core technology needed, even to produce and manufacturing the turbine Engine, radar, Missiles and other components. Indonesia had more access to the technology source compared to the China to say, it is pity we don't have the guts to change the pattern and got a broader picture.

Indonesia already manufacturing and producing NC212 and CN 235 for decades or years but we still don't provided the components from Indonesian source, at least trying to license producing the engine first. Then trying to outsourcing and licence producing the radar components from Indonesian companies which had partner from aboard. Indonesia still doesn't have complete chain industries needed for aircraft production even for something we already assemble for four decades!!! That's mean our situation in aviation technology is not much better compared to the early Soeharto era, maybe worse if we are looking from our economy situation in which already much better compared to back then.

Then this KFX IFX projects actually give much alteration toward our aviation technology and the mastering process? And how it is trying to answered the critical question like how much our level of involvement in the projects? How much local content Indonesia side actually had bar the designing and assembly works? Can Indonesia developed the needed technology included in fighter technology in house?

This KFX project actually unwarranted and shoved from the top to the bottom during previous administration, Indonesian industry and research agency at the time actually prefer Indonesia developed jet powered light aircraft to be used as trainer and light attack aircraft. The previous efforts is to partnered with Yugoslavia Aeronautical technology institute and SOKO manufacturing, well Yugoslavia is no more in early 1990, then Habibie proceed with license producing the Hawk 109/209 with great number supposed to be built in Indonesia including the manufacturing assembly of the Turbomeca adour engine, alas the political and economy situation Made the plan is aborted.

Then they are trying to get independent projects being done with foreign partner assistance just like how HAL industry partnered with Kurt Tank to develop Hal Marut.

This is what I was brought up into Airforce's thread discussion, about the bridging project for KFX/IFX. another ToT program is needed here, in which we can absorb thoroughly all the skill set and design & manufacturing knowledge that we've missed during KFX/IFX development.

To my brother, Indos, Be realistic and not so naive about the agreement in KFX/IFX. SK really can proceed the program alone even if Indonesia pull out from it. It has been reiterated many times by the SK.

As I wrote on the thread, South Korea has marketing strategy which is called " Blue Ocean Strategy". You can google what it is all about. This marketing strategy was invented by a South Korean Market expert. I forgot his name. He wrote a best seller book : " Blue Ocean Strategy". Instead of having head to head competition with all contenders, he proposed to offer the customer another "value added" if the customers buy his product. In this regard, SK propose as a "Full ToT" agent for Indonesia if we buy their military products. Without this "added value" it's difficult for SK to compete with Russia, Europe, USA when those countries offered similar products.

Thus, When SK offered KFX development to Indonesia, it doesn't mean that SK was begin from the "blank scratch". They have all the foot print of fighter jet development skillset and knowledge required by their 40 years road map back from 80s ( KT1 wong bee, T-50, FA-50), consistently and rigorously achieved all the steps till they confidence enough to design their own advanced fighter jet. They offered it to Indonesia as it will be softened the cost and shared the risks as well as to get us as the first foreign customer. Yes indeed our senior engineers has also contributed in many aspect of development. But, it doesn't necessarily mean SK cannot develop and proceed without the help from our engineers.

With our involvement, SK just do improvised their basic design and detail design by the combination of SK- RI engineers.

And don't under estimate any full-license program. The license is not just for technician and vocational school background employee. There are manufacturing engineer whom will benefited from the license program.

Why Habibie started all of his "dream works" by license? because he has rigorous steps on how to mastery any particular high technology as well as make an industries from it.

1. License program : to get familiar with the technologies and the methods of manufacturing it. Thus, he got NC-212 program.

2. System integration to build a similar products in the market. By this we learned about how to integrate many systems and technology into one product. The basic design knowledge already introduced to some extent. On this step, BJH get the CN-235.

3. System integration to build a new product in the market. The same process with the step 2 were conducted. But, with more design capabilities to make a new product which has not exist in the market yet. And that's the time BJH introduced regional turbo prop N250.

4. R&D to develop new product with new technological advancement. This is the step whereas we learned a full design of new product. This was when BJH made his final project to become fully capable of aircraft designer and manufacturer : The regional jet N2130, really a new product in its class at that time.

BJH summarized all 4 steps above in his famous phrase : " Begins from the end, and ended on the beginning" . Because he reversed the R&D step into the last one, for that if it is put as the first step, then it will only "re-inventing the wheel". we will never catch-up the fast technology development.

Thus, When the KFX/IFX program was offered, to build a supersonic aircraft fighter with high-end technology, We didn't have any experience in supersonic aircraft design yet.

On the meantime, SK already has the knowledge and experience required in which they got from the steps similar to what BJH introduced in subsonic aircraft design & development.

IMHO, I saw "missing link" on our side in order to catch-up the KFX/IFX program. The links that we can achieved and afford to it if we have a bridging program. That's why I thought F-21/F-16 Viper "Make in Indonesia" will be most suitable to support KFX/IFX program on our side, since both products has LM genetics. And by this F-16 V full license, we can persuade LM to give the access to some forbidden key technologies in KFX/IFX program that will become mutual benefit for SK and RI.

It's not a simple technology that we manage to mastery, we cannot just jump into it without some stepping stones.

Anyway, there is another rule of thumb.....follows the money trail.....be realistic...we don't have much money to acquires 2 program at the same time...lol

at least, not this time around....



2. System integration

 

[JATOSINT]

Defence t a l k

Hmm, never been there

 

[Lordimperator]

Hmm, never been there

I think you were there, i saw your twit there, i guess someone reposted it on DT