Historical Indus Valley Civilization Research papers and Theories.

[sarthak]

So your building your entire edifice on a name? For sake of argumant if Pakistan decided to restytle itself as -

• Asiastan
• Sindstan

would Pakistan become 'halal' for you. A name means nothing. So according to you mistake we made was we should have found a name from antiquity - say Gandhara and it would be all okay? United Kingdom has no history either, neither does such a manufactured name like USA. These are just names. As a people, as a land we have a heritage that goes further back then most of the world including you guys.

And thatr darned thing that was dissolved in 1947 was a British, imperial, colonial project. Made by British bullets and bayonets. Ruled by British officials. With a British flag fluterring. The only thing my ancestor and your ancestor share is for a short while [98 years] both were prisoners. Nothing more. Nothing less. And we broke from that prison in 1947.

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Your tall claims to indus valley civilisation are truly ridiculous. There are are 1400 ivc sites 925 ( majority ) of them in india, oldest site bhiranna is ij india, biggest site rakhigari is in india, only site with a harbour is in india, newesr ivc sites are in india. Also only hindus have any cultural legacy of the indus Valley left today there many hindu dieties that are non vedic prime example being that of shiva. Also indus valley civilsation was centered around the now seasonal ghaggar hakra river. .

 

[Kaptaan]

Your tall claims to indus valley civilisation are truly ridiculous.

Indian claim on Indus is like Africans claiming ancient Egypt and using the odd detritus found in Sudan, Ethopia etc as proof. It's called it Indus Valley civilization. Not Ganga Valley civilization.

If I get a huge boulder and crack a small piece and then smash it with a hammer I will end up with 100s of small fragments. But the boulder will remain the main piece despite me saying I have 100s of fragments. What Afghanistan and India have are FRAGMENTS. The epicentre of Indus is the Indus Valley which is? Mostly in Pakistan. Now live that fact. Physical geography.

I have been through this with inferiorty ridden Indians in other forums who like Africans search for something they can take pride in. So I sincerely wish and hope Indian's find their own heritage that they can own with pride. Maybe something might crop up under the jungles of Ganga, or he maybe in the aboriginal regions like Jharkand, Chatiisgarh. Wish you the best. Ta ta ....

 

[Nilgiri]

Your tall claims to indus valley civilisation are truly ridiculous. There are are 1400 ivc sites 925 ( majority ) of them in india, oldest site bhiranna is ij india, biggest site rakhigari is in india, only site with a harbour is in india, newesr ivc sites are in india. Also only hindus have any cultural legacy of the indus Valley left today there many hindu dieties that are non vedic prime example being that of shiva. Also indus valley civilsation was centered around the now seasonal ghaggar hakra river. Pakistanis have always identified with foreign invaders that came to india all your founding fathers saw mohammed bin qasim as the founder of pakistan never the indus valley civilisation.

Hindus dont have sole right to IVC heritage sorry. This exclusionism just prompts retaliatory exclusionism in the downstream by whatever is convenient to harness and cherrypick.

Rest we can merely see what is taught regarding the matter in schoolbooks of both sides...and leave things at that regarding who is more Quixotic relative to their population on the matter.

Its about what a country actually does on the matter you see (instead of grandiose self-harm towards it)...regarding a logical claim.

I mean there's just absolute legions of Pakistani anthropologists, archaeologists, historians, civilisation experts etc making a beeline for all the actual vetted papers regarding this in the first place (and then making/asserting some principle with downstream political borders in some triumph of irredentism over scientific, rational process that actually defines the scope of study in first place)....clearly.

Such folks if they materialise in such areas and places will be taken seriously and not laughed at (by all those in the know), at all.

No need to make a big deal out of this and get all triggered.

 

[Raptor]

Ofcourse not i only pointed to hindus are the people to have most in common with indus valley people as many of the dieties in hindu faith are derived from pre vedic times most likely from the faith of ivc.

Also aryan-dravidian theory is proven wrong,original inhabitants of IVC had similarities to the vedic hindus and some of so called "dravidians"

 

[sarthak]

It is the newest study on the genetics of IVC. Quite a important inferences can be made from it about development of civilisation in Indian subcontinent and genetics of people living here

Ancient DNA Studies Untangle Genetic History of Indus River Valley Civilization

By sequencing an Indus Valley Civilization representative and related individuals, investigators learned more about the South Asian ancestry, farming history, and languages.

www.genomeweb.com

Some important quotes from the research paper.

Because the Iranian ancestry component appears to come from an ancient population that split from other Iranian populations more than 12,000 years ago — before farming was established in the Fertile Crescent — authors of the new studies reasoned that farming probably did not arrive in India as a result of migration by farming groups, but likely arose in parallel as previously reported in parts of Europe.

Meaning farming developed independently in india. There are further proof for this based on this genetics of farm animals in india. I can give links to those research papers if anybody is interested also it is possible development of agriculture in india preceded or at the very least occured in the same period as the fertile crescent.

About genetics

That data suggested that "after the fall of the IVC, several migrations into South Asia led to the formation of two distinct populations therein, one more ancestral to modern North Indians and the other more ancestral to modern South Asians," University of California at Santa Cruz ecology and evolutionary biology researchers Beth Shapiro and Nathan Schaefer, who were not involved in the studies, wrote in a related perspectives article in Science. "The ancestry of most present-day Indians is probably composed of these two populations along with a handful of others."

IVC population is the most prominent source of modern indian dna with component being 60 to 85 percent and steppe dna being 10 to 30 percent. Also there are proofs of IVC migration outside of india towards iran and central asia both genetic and archeological during the mature phase of IVC 2800bce to 2350 bce. Skeletons from east iran genetically similar to IVC for the time period and IVC settlement have been found up till afghanistan.

 

[sarthak]

Also aryan-dravidian theory is proven wrong,original inhabitants of IVC had similarities to the vedic hindus and some of so called "dravidians"

Aryan and dravidian division in modern sense is only a linguistic division. If these people were ever distinct they have long since intermixed and both have some genetic components from both ANI and ASI. Saurashtr , dakhini dialects, konkani dialects, kshtarabhasha, lambadi are all south indian languages dercied from sanskrit. Dravidian language brahui is spread to as far out to pakistani balochistan, Iranian balochistan, Afghanistan, and marw oasis of Turkmenistan, kurukh is spoken in parts of Bangladesh.

 

[sarthak]

Pakistan's first minister of law and labour ,and one the of the 96 founding fathers who voted for pakistan Jogendra Nath Mandal was driven out of pakistan for protesting against the atrocities against dalits and hindus and in pakistan. He had hoped his constituency(dalits) would have there rights secured in pakistan against an india which was hindu majority and might not adress the caste based discrimination. He fled pakistan after an FIR was filed against him for protesting riots against dalits and spent rest of his life in india.

Jogendra Nath Mandal: Chosen by Jinnah, banished by bureaucracy

In Pakistan, there still exist many Jogendras, who have exhausted their energies trying to prove their patriotism.

www.dawn.com

The Story of First Law Minister of Pakistan who Died as a Refugee

All of us know that the first Law Minister of India was a Dalit but do we also know that the first law minister of Pakistan was also at Dalit. His name was Jogendra Nath Mandal and its tragic tha...

www.legalserviceindia.com

 

[Joe Shearer]

Also only hindus have any cultural legacy of the indus Valley left today there many hindu dieties that are non vedic prime example being that of shiva.

This is speculation. There is nothing to show a direct and provable link. Chauvinism shouldn't come into scientific and academic matters. I really wish these overtones were absent.

@Nilgiri

 

[Joe Shearer]

Also indus valley civilsation was centered around the now seasonal ghaggar hakra river.

Bullshit.

This is, again, revisionist reconstruction of an entirely imaginary civilisational construct.

We really don't need a Hindutva version of palaeology.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pakistanis have always identified with foreign invaders that came to india all your founding fathers saw mohammed bin qasim as the founder of pakistan never the indus valley civilisation.

Unfortunately, the reverse is also true. Indians, too, tend to identify, depending on their bias, either with invaders who spoke a downstream version of PIE, or a highly doubtful, primaeval master-culture that cannot be proven to have existed other than by arithmetical calisthenics aligning alleged historical events with the positions of the stars.

While the identification of an entire culture with bin Qasim is childish and juvenile, and while I do not wish to stand accused of 'what-aboutery', there is no need for us to raise our voices when the opposing cultural segment to the one excoriated above has so many skeletons of its own, skeletons that sadly are not kept discreetly buried but are displayed in all their splendour in public.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It's called it Indus Valley civilization. Not Ganga Valley civilization.

You do understand that this is because of the accident of discovery of the most prominent sites on the banks of the Indus. It has no value other than this historical accident. The locals, just to make a point, had totally lost all memory of this culture and these remains.

 

[Kaptaan]

You do understand that this is because of the accident of discovery of the most prominent sites on the banks of the Indus. It has no value other than this historical accident. The locals, just to make a point, had totally lost all memory of this culture and these remains.

There is a rough correlation with Indus but beyond that point I was using the same reasoning I often face "it is India" and not Pakistan with referance to nomenclature from the past.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What Afghanistan and India have are FRAGMENTS. The epicentre of Indus is the Indus Valley which is? Mostly in Pakistan

An interesting assertion, but an assertion. There is no evidence that the Indus River was a conscious choice of a civilisational or cultural centre. It was a convenient waterway, at a time when the major conurbations were trading centres with enormous trading markets extending to the Syr Darya-Amu Darya region on one side, and into the Arabian peninsula (certainly, into known trading centres in the Gulf). Was there more to it? There is no evidence, and we are only speculating when we anchor the Mohenjodaro culture to the Indus River. It is as flimsy as other voices that hopefully link it to the Ghagra-Hakkar River system, a system, incidentally, that never had the capacity to carry the volumes that the city centre designs show existed. Not even in its pristine state.

It is strongly advisable that we steer clear of these nationalist assumptions.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I have been through this with inferiorty ridden Indians in other forums who like Africans search for something they can take pride in. So I sincerely wish and hope Indian's find their own heritage that they can own with pride. Maybe something might crop up under the jungles of Ganga, or he maybe in the aboriginal regions like Jharkand, Chatiisgarh. Wish you the best. Ta ta ....

LOL.

Naughty, naughty.....

The experience you report is not one that one would wish to share. My sympathies, but those nightmares should not force any sufferer to get into a conceptual strait-jacket to punish those inflictors of pain.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The centre of ivc is ghaggra harka river in modern day rajasthan and Haryana in india.

Yes, yes, and 'Mandir Wohin Banega*'. Feel free to vent. No fact is changed thereby.

*For those Sassenachs not familiar with the trends of the cow-belt, it has been discovered that the site of the legendary temple that always was and always will be has been found to have an underground river running through it; the architects have been asked to suggest, on an emergent basis, alternative designs.

 

[Joe Shearer]

i only pointed to hindus are the people to have most in common with indus valley people as many of the dieties in hindu faith are derived from pre vedic times most likely from the faith of ivc.

A fallacy in itself, based on an imaginary identification of a single solitary image of an ascetic-like figure that caused sympathetic minds to jump to the conclusion that that is Rudra of the Vedas, identified with considerable expenditure of muscle power to the Siva of Puranic Hinduism.

There is not a single other identification available.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Also aryan-dravidian theory is proven wrong,original inhabitants of IVC had similarities to the vedic hindus and some of so called "dravidians"

<groan!>

Where are face-palm emojis when they are really needed?

@Nilgiri

Are we encouraging a Hindutva/revisionist lobby on this forum?

 

[Joe Shearer]

IVC population is the most prominent source of modern indian dna with component being 60 to 85 percent and steppe dna being 10 to 30 percent. Also there are proofs of IVC migration outside of india towards iran and central asia both genetic and archeological during the mature phase of IVC 2800bce to 2350 bce. Skeletons from east iran genetically similar to IVC for the time period and IVC settlement have been found up till afghanistan.

And the culture follows, along with the genes?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Saurashtr , dakhini dialects, konkani dialects, kshtarabhasha, lambadi are all south indian languages dercied from sanskrit.

All uniformly of Indo-Aryan descent, through the well-known linguistic branches and descendants of western Prakrit. Prakrit itself was a derivative of Indo-Aryan, while Sanskrit was a highly artificial codification, of great sophistication and power, by a single source in the 6th century BC. It was never, anywhere a language spoken by the people. Look at the range of dialects spoken in Kalidasa for examples of what was spoken.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There is a rough correlation with Indus but beyond that point I was using the same reasoning I often face "it is India" and not Pakistan with referance to nomenclature from the past.

I wouldn't waste my time, if I were you, on members of a nascent Hindutva lobby that seems to be in the making.