Is Pakistan more stable than India?

mulj

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I forgot to mention, Bosnia is small market but somehow pakistani rice came on shelves, even it is 2 times more expensive then ordinary one, i never had better rice. I know it is small thing in bigger picture but it is also hopefull fact that you will be more and more present on global markets, i wish with some higher added value products.
 
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Nilgiri

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I am forced by shear weight of facts to accept that India is way more stable then Pakistan. I mean way more. Pakistan cannot possibly match even one stabilizing force that India has. That force? Having over 25% of it's population or nearly 300 million [population of USA] in state of inhuman caste slavery system which relegates the 300 million to walk on fours or avoid their shadows polluting the upper born in India.

Hey every large country has its issue with inequality...for whole multitude of reasons and contexts why, brought to modern manifestation in whatever state and level today.

You similarly have been going on the George Floyd routine whenever you sense the opportunity its time to cut USA to size.

So obviously you are going to expand it for a country you hate in much larger proportion, that you don't even see as basic equals as humans to begin with. If you want to be taken seriously on the matter with such assertion..... *shrug*.

What can I say.....here you are doing same ole same ole of irrelevant outburst diatribes, whereas it was a South Indian...a muslim too may I add, that was instrumental to us converting and mastering developed ballistic missile technology to actual sounding rockets and far far more than that over time.

Whereas Pakistan for decades now sits on stage 1 of that (muh ballistic missiles), expecting to be treated credibly in intellectual sustenance....making up all kind of excuses and "what ifs" about SUPARCO.

But of course everything is psychologically sound and stable about such a situation difference and root causes.

India's internal discrimination and prejudice problems are well known here.

What would you have us do? Simply murder through forced starvation like mao and stalin did in the 10's of millions?....yet give their downstream countries today a full fat pass on it as eyes glaze over?

I would rather we keep as many people alive as we can and work on our issues through permeation of better recourse and redemption.

Pakistan though is obviously a huge standout success, one only need search up your name at PDF with search terms like "mujahir" "Karachi" "Bengali" "Gangu" to get a broader idea of the excellent social cohesion....and how no discrimination and counter discrimination going all different ways exists at all.

Wonderfully intellectually stimulating discourse you had with Areesh and co for example about Karachi...whatever is promoted and encouraged by the all-seeing all-knowing all-wise powers that run the whole place very justly and fairly (totally not leading to formation of new forum where you now are blabbing the same ole same ole about the oh so worse-off decrepit Indians).

Ignoring for the moment yet again what the Pakistani psyche-cabal actually did with takfiri regarding 50% of their countrymen when given the opportunity....(rather than focusing too much on the inevitable result of that, by whomever hand it was delivered)....

Ignoring how you target my whole population of countrymen....while I focus in on a select few of yours "running the place" (and give the laypeople a default pass like laypeople world over)....

....If Pakistan was so equal and stable in the end compared to India....and knowing the high opinion you hold on Africans, especially the sub-saharan kind....could you explain to me the sheer number of such countries that fill out the space in difference between India and Pakistan here....something so basic as keeping babies and toddlers alive to their 5th year.....

u5mort.jpg



I had to zoom out 4 times to get both countries in the same snapshot...given India is half Pakistan's rate.

If Pakistan were socially cohesive as you say, in far greater proportion than India....would it not reflect in this number?

What is also disturbing is that increased in Pakistan's case in infant moratility (under 1 year estimate) further down the page from 2018 to 2020....at quick glance maybe the only country where that reversal is happening/happened.

This is subject we can choose to keep going into.....why does Pakistan do awfully in the intellectual realms, demographic realms and basic socioeconomic realms compared to "even" India (with its myriad of problems whom you despise and see as all inferior).

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark....to paraphrase (except its not Denmark).


Mmmmm very true unlike India.

Like are we factoring in populations here....1.4 billion and all. Pakistan I suppose received 6 - 7 times less? More or less than that ratio?

Also what do the countries have to show now for this assistance?

Staring at the paint dry on a shaheen is not considered intellectual fortitude in India's case....we are not happy stuck with that..... or if we are doing worse than afghanistan on baby+toddler death rate.
 

Jackdaws

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Well, I will add a infantile "lol" as well and state that India has been the biggest begger on the US soup kitchen then any other country. You can slip and give your rendition all you like. And how are the 300 million Dalit's enjoying their "stability and freedoms".
Given that your entire posts generally oscillate between infantile and juvenile, feel free to add whatever you wish.

The Dalits are in considerably better shape than the Ahmadiyas, Sikhs, Hindus and Christians in Pakistan. One our greatest revered founding fathers Dr. Ambedkar was a Dalit. He is still considered a demi God. And what of poor Ahmadiya Muslim Abdus Salem - in life he was chased out of Pakistan and in his death his grave was defaced. I wonder which of your two Nobel Laureates has had a worse life. The scientist who was exiled or the little girl who was shot in the head for wanting to go to school.
 

Waz

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....If Pakistan was o equal and stable in the end compared to India....and knowing the high opinion you hold on Africans, especially the sub-saharan kind....could you explain to me the sheer number of such countries that fill out the space in difference between India and Pakistan here....something so basic as keeping babies and toddlers alive to their 5th year.....

View attachment 7558

Of course Pakistan has a ton of work to do, but at least show where India severely lacks as well.

The global hunger index 2020 ;



1606764898281.png



1606764918790.png
 

Nilgiri

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Of course Pakistan has a ton of work to do, but at least show where India severely lacks as well.

The global hunger index 2020 ;



View attachment 7560


View attachment 7561

Lot of indices matter how the country goes about measuring them....some things are lot more direct measurement like mortality rates.

That said, the Region indeed as whole definitely has long way to go....we are early in marathon and arguing about matter of feet among miles of journey.
 

Kaptaan

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I forgot to mention, Bosnia is small market but somehow pakistani rice came on shelves, even it is 2 times more expensive then ordinary one, i never had better rice. I know it is small thing in bigger picture but it is also hopefull fact that you will be more and more present on global markets, i wish with some higher added value products.
Thank you for finding something positive about Pakistan. Pakistan like Bosnia is faced with swarms but still standing. At some point I will visit your country - maybe summer 2021 in a post covid world.
 

Waz

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Lot of indices matter how the country goes about measuring them....some things are lot more direct measurement like mortality rates.

That said, the Region indeed as whole definitely has long way to go....we are early in marathon and arguing about matter of feet among miles of journey.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics, they say.
But agreed wholeheartedly with the journey of development the subcontinent is yet to undertake.
India however has made better leaps.
 

mulj

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Thank you for finding something positive about Pakistan. Pakistan like Bosnia is faced with swarms but still standing. At some point I will visit your country - maybe summer 2021 in a post covid world.

You are more then welcome, i know what you did for us, your atgms changed course of war in direction that we were not afraid anymore of massive armor attacks, personally will never forget that.
I know that you want best for your country but western copy paste is not good for you, that game is rigged from the beginning, what personally anoys me that people easily accept trash western things while disregardinG their core values and sell it like a good thing but it is wide topic for discussion.
Anyway if you plan to come here, will be happy to help with tips and meet for coffie or lunch if i woild be around at the time.
 

Kaptaan

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Anyway if you plan to come here, will be happy to help with tips and meet for coffie or lunch if i woild be around at the time.
Yes, I do intend to visit your lovely country. I will send you my email etc and when I come I will let you know. And thanks for the kind offer ...
 

Joe Shearer

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I am harsh because there is bunch of "guests" watching always...and reporting back somewhere else.

Given what these types inflicted on me ....repeatedly and habitually without a 2nd thought ....when they had the one way opportunity simply by my interest to engage with Pakistanis... (and borne out merely by their troglodyte instincts and emotions)...I might as well give them full due resolution on what I have always thought about their specific control-freak ilk and thinking (since they seem so obsessed with what I say all along and what friends I make or who or what I am)

Goes for all of that sort... be they a pesky buzzard, nagging aunty, claimed agnostic, cordon-bleu font "higher ups"...or whatever rabble rousing general pitchfork mob with entrenched inferiority, superiority and sugar-daddy "patrons be preserved at all and any cost to others" complexes among others.

They ought to show themselves and step into the ring on equal terms, heck I will give them advantage...rather than be faceless guests in audience. I feel I am owed at least that...but they won't.

It all reflects on certain anti-intellectual, anti-logical psychology in the end present in large proportions among Pakistan's elitists (esp those with actionable reins of power)....governing this whole stability and instability thing in the end (IMO). It has been grown, cultivated and doubled down and tripled down upon.

There that edifice stands looking like a diamond to all those sufficiently gaslit...but looking something else carbon-based altogether to those not gaslit.

With time more and more people are brutally shown the above divide and just what degree of chasm it is in the end, leading to the very establishment of this forum for reasons you already know, governing one of the most "allied" of allies ironically.

Faithful iron-clad Allies that cannot even be pinked you see...but left in some "all is ok" purgatory to assuage greater ego. Outright pinking is for a pagan (or similar easy inferior scapegoat) like me....the very same complex of the 10:1 continuing to be played out in fantasy vs reality as it has before (and amnesia or excuse inevitably applied). Differential treatment is the very hallmark of instability.

Just the other day an Iranian buddy of mine got talking with me about the pursuit of shatranj in the modern era, given its a shared historical heritage of the elder regional civilisations (of which Pakistan definitely has its stake in)....and the strength and number of our GMs today. We wondered why Pakistan is a void of GM's....and how and why this extends to other pursuits. Why does the typical Pakistani elitist excuse come up too?

My conclusion on that is there is simply too much mental energy expended among its top 1% or whatever top X% on identity and ideology issues deep down.... that are settled matters for societies more comfortable in their own skin and own history...root psychological "stability" you can call it.

Thus Pakistan simply does not get the rational pursuits of such energy prioritised and deployed for its own betterment. This all inevitably cocoons and entrenches as anti-intellectualism...among other things (When actioned out and called out).

Merely stating one is the 1st muslim nobel laureate (in such a discipline as physics) attracts a grave defacement from the takfiri mob...that too precisely after one as great as that... is under it and cannot defend his identity.

This severe anti-intellectualism follows his worthy student doggedly, when he voices his opinion in newspaper columns persistently and consistently on what ails his beloved country (the half that remains, in the name of stability).

The same takfiri thinking that ripped away half the country earlier too to begin with....can rice eating fish eating gangu delta folks, unwilling to compromise on their underlying "hindu" language and "hindu" customs.... ever really be a proper muslim?...or need sermons and one-way wealth extraction by the asserted proper "Urdu with the right islamic script" piety folks?

What do? You call this stable?

This psyche extends to so many things I have already talked about and simply I don't want to continue...my interest regarding those w.r.t Pakistan has long waned and will not recover....the earlier experience just being one of many things helping to establish that (for that I do thank that place).

Let me be clear, none of this reflects on the Pakistani populace at large in some absolute way, not even close. Much like my own 1.4 billion Indians, I will never meet 99.9999999%+ of Pakistanis to form opinion on that. Sample some slice of them, there are say social media street scenes of regular folks, and they are by and large like regular folks world over in the end.

They after all didn't get together and organise, plan and execute a terror attack on Bombay now did they (that too under the most likely path to peace + resolution thinking PM India had at that time)...that was a specific group of people that bear out only some correlation on the larger country. Same goes for every country in the end in that the buffer I extend to all is the same by default.

But now as an example of that action by those few, you are simply never going to get another Indian PM like that again w.r.t Pakistan. It is full on Indira Gandhi mode (at a minimum) from now on....as that stiffness in spine is apparently the only recourse Pakistan establishment seems to understand.

It's same reason major ally US did not trust Pakistan establishment on the OBL raid. This speaks to the perceived stability of the upper echelon in the end.

Hence I only judge the visible manifestation as I see it of the elitists that have the most power...to exert on others and on their own people.

I have been lucky to meet and know some good Pakistanis that buck the trend (some considerably so) of those elitists and narratives and I would count you among that number.

It will be such people as that, which offer genuine stability of the best kind to Pakistan should they be allowed to occupy the mantle in sufficient number and strength.

But that is matter of being done rather than ignored endlessly or talked about and yawned about endlessly.

I am tired of theoretical and projected semantics in light of the backdrop of results and reality.

Such was an idle curiosity at best to test the waters, they have been found cold, murky and unwelcoming (overall) in Pakistan elitist case and have run their vain course several times over.

With countries/societies where the situation is far more tempered and fair in the basic handling and arbitration of free thought and discourse (from whichever friend or foe), I ultimately judge those to also be more stable too...along with my sustained interest there.

@VCheng @T-123456 @Joe Shearer




We can use the fragility index or similar as starting reference on its components. UK is very much different given its constitution (regd its formation) is different. This is fundamentally why they let Ireland leave the union too and were also willing to let Northern Ireland leave too (if the northern ireland parliament voted for it, which they didnt).

It would be different if UK was the original reference for the country at large....it isn't...its a country of earlier countries in union. It is very unique situation.


No one (reasonable) is going to go all in on one component of stability. Hence the need for multi-component index and how you prioritise and debate those.




Hence the need for debate on what are the components of stability that can be measured, analysed and compared.



Yeah well the USSR had: protection, welfare, food, education, equality, opportunity to its people

...arguably (and measurably) in far large abundance than say India and Pakistan today (and much of the developing world in general today) right up to its very end.

But it had that end (driven by tremendous deteoration of stability after all) for a reason. Thus there is more to the story than just these.

Similarly there are countries that provide these components at far worse degree than India and Pakistan, but are arguably more stable than either....given there is enough "institutional"+ political power consolidated for various reasons and there is little to no churning (from inside and outside) to upset that. Some countries are just small enough to not warrant/create a whole host of things larger nations face....or carry inertias long enough from before that add further stability.

Drat! Running low on popcorn....
 

Raptor

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Okay,this thread is Hilarious.
Few "foreigners" who know nothing are basically throwing statements which are inconclusive out of nowhere.
 

Paro

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I don't want to make this another pdf stuff, but if these racist supremacist posts or thoughts are encouraged by Mods, get yourself ready for an pdf version 2.0.
@Nilgiri Remember around 2 months ago I told you this forum is going to be the next pdf 2.0 in a year and you told me it’s kind off impossible. Well I can assure you we are almost there, just few a more months 🥳🥳👌🏻.
 

Nilgiri

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@Nilgiri Remember around 2 months ago I told you this forum is going to be the next pdf 2.0 in a year and you told me it’s kind off impossible. Well I can assure you we are almost there, just few a more months 🥳🥳👌🏻.

Till I see one iota of what is the sustained 99% in Indian subsection (or any non-pakistani subsection in general) there allowed to happen at even 1% here.... it will never be PDF (a place that actively engages certain things as the full on norm).

I have given replies in this thread alone, that too in the Pakistani subsection..... which would have been deleted and gotten me banned (1st reply itself, forget having 2nd and 3rd one materialise) at PDF for far more than 3 months they did (for voicing support to Turks there) and which means I won't be back there for good past maybe checking up on cpl friends at most.

So a very key thing is having an Indian mod for the indian section in first place (and this system is the basis for each country section) and really having an Indian mod at all...something totally impossible at PDF. I am privy in large way to how this forum was conceived and created....that is longer subject not really to be aired out....people will just have to trust (my and others credibility) and see in the end.

Thus the key difference is the way this forum is set up, there is large recourse for any systematic unfairness

That does not all together prevent certain boil-ups in heated threads here and there ofc....it is important we let people opinions and arguments come out and you do best you can within forum rules. This is important so the layperson and neutral and even supporter of either side simply see the merits and recourse for each sides arguments.

If there is some prejudicial reply (deemed within forum rules and within another country section to yours), well you give the appropriate answer as you choose to see fit and engage (again within forum rules)....and you wont get deleted and pinked for it.
 

KKF 2.0

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@all

When I look at Pakistan I do see major conflicts affecting the people and the state institutions very deeply. But in the case of Pakistan the conflicting parties are fighting for the state. They are colliding to gain the upper hand in order to seize the state. In India, on the other hand, it seems like that one of the parties always fights against the state.
 

Nilgiri

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@all

When I look at Pakistan I do see major conflicts affecting the people and the state institutions very deeply. But in the case of Pakistan the conflicting parties are fighting for the state. They are colliding to gain the upper hand in order to seize the state. In India, on the other hand, it seems like that one of the parties always fights against the state.

India has no record in modern formation with half its country (in fact near 60% of population) splitting away.

Or were the East Pakistanis fighting for the Pakistani state in your analysis?

Same goes for BLA, PTM, Taliban factions etc. Or was the action (incl atrocities) by Pakistan military there (and US drone strikes all over there) a big thumbs up recognition of these groups fighting "for" the state?

Right now there is a thread in PDF about how Nawaz Sharif (sitting in UK) asking for member votes on if he is literally working for India. This is a former PM that had the highest security clearances (as recent as just cpl years ago)....you can't make this up.

Name me one Indian PM and political character that moved to external shores and starts the drama?...to level that many Indian citizens see him as agent of the biggest enemy?

If India airs out its problems in the media much more so it doesnt have to go all-in insular-brittle (and then get called out and broken into 2 because of fundamental totalitarian flaw in that approach)...you see it as "against" the state.

Yes I guess Pakistan is far more stable than US and other large democracies too in your estimation.
 

Deliorman

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@Nilgiri Remember around 2 months ago I told you this forum is going to be the next pdf 2.0 in a year and you told me it’s kind off impossible. Well I can assure you we are almost there, just few a more months 🥳🥳👌🏻.

Well, you know- when you have Indians and Pakistanis online- hits under the belt and arguing are to be expected every time. Yet here as long as both sides keep the discussions civilized and free of insults nobody will ban you just for stating a fact or a statistic etc...
I think that the forum so far is a pretty neutral field for both sides but it’s also normal to have some outside people (with bigger or smaller knowledge on your region) supporting one side or the other.
 

Madokafc

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@Nilgiri Remember around 2 months ago I told you this forum is going to be the next pdf 2.0 in a year and you told me it’s kind off impossible. Well I can assure you we are almost there, just few a more months 🥳🥳👌🏻.

Quite different approach, in which as long as it was in the better moderation and there is no censoring and deleting reasonable post habit like the ones before, it will be a much better forum. People can argument and insult verbally each other within forum and at other day we can talk like there is no yesterday argument in which it was made one forum is lively, but to deleted and censoring reasonable post to push and forcing some value or PoV into people throat it is a nail in the Coffin for any forum.
 

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