Live Conflict Israel-Palestine War|Regional Escalations

Lool

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I love the current Erdogan a lot
He is playing on all the tropes within a matter of days
One time he supports Palestine, the other he supports Israel. Then he starts to demonise their backers, the US and Iran, yet suddenly start supporting both countries

Erdogan's foreign policy maneuvers, aside from the Morsi incident, has been quite good recently

Ever since the Ukrainian war, Erdogan is trying to pose Turkey as a decision maker within the region without pretty much lifting a finger. He is allowing all of Turkey's enemies from US, Iran, Israel, Hamas, and Russia to just continue beheading each other while acting as the Messiah




 

Relic

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While international pressure started to come down Israel it doesn't mean they will follow it since that pressure only coming from UN and EU but not U.S.
The U.S. is Israel's ally. That's nit changing. They've made it abundantly clear. That's like saying that North Korea doesn't abide by international pressure and demands, because China doesn't get it on it.

It's not the United States' job to police their ally, nor it it China's job to police North Korea. They've chosen their side in the conflict, made it internationally known where they stand and they let the chips fall where they may.

Entities like Hamas and Hezbollah receive funding back channeled through regional power Iran and their political wing is is sheltered in places like Qatar. Israel receives funding from its ally The United States... I don't see the problem here. Both parties have international backers. Is it Israel's fault that their backer makes better military equipment, can afford to fund them better and is fiscally and militarily light years ahead of Hamas' backer?
 

GoatsMilk

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Almost every exisiting country on Earth has stolen, commandeered or won / lost land in a war. It's not in any way unique to the Israel / Palestine situation. Borders have changed substantially throughout history. Land owners have been evicted. Some have been eradicated. It's the normal course of humanity. It's dark, but it's who we are.

But please don't tell me you're justifying the slaughter of a bunch of people at a music festival, because of a territorial dispute over stolen land. Because if that's the case there is some serious murdering around the world that we can start justifying. There are a TON of disgruntled people around the world with land claims that currently aren't working out in their favour.

This is somewhat of a silly post.

Its kind of like there is a fire next door and you chose to have a party next door to it, its not a surprise your house catches on fire.

In the current era and the context of hostilities that are very much alive today more then they've ever been, then its pretty negligent to have a festival on land only stolen yestday and still very much disputed. Then toss into it the horrendous situation Gaza that was only next door which according to the Isreali side is home to thousands of terrorists then its exceptionally stupid to hold a festival next door to it.

For example i wouldnt hold a festival on the Turkish border where ypg exists on the opposite side.

Now if like say the north america, you stole the land 300 years ago and wiped out all the natives, so much time has passed and the troubles of that era are no longer applicable today. But Isreal/Palastine is alive as much today as it was when the first troubles broke out.

And dont make assumptions, about me justifying such things, i got plenty of posts on here saying the complete opposite. If there is one thing cant stand its euro origin peoples trying to decide what other people are thinking and feeling.

If anything your posts seem to have been justifying Isreal which is disgraceful, abhorrent.

Hamas targetted civilians, what the israelis are doing is genocide.
 

Relic

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Erdogan is attacking the US and Israel, after attacking Europe.

This guy is like an old uncle ranting and no-one can tell him to stop

We are close to 1 dollar = 30 lira.
Is he bi-polar by chance? I'd love to be a fly on the wall of a conversation between a bi-polar Erdogan and Dementia ridden Biden... Hell, let's throw in a narcissitic sociopath like Putin and somebody suffering from delusions of grandeur such as Kim Jung Un. Sounds like a great reality TV show. All the mental illness in one room :)
 

Relic

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This is somewhat of a silly post.

Its kind of like there is a fire next door and you chose to have a party next door to it, its not a surprise your house catches on fire.

In the current era and the context of hostilities that are very much alive today more then they've ever been, then its pretty negligent to have a festival on land only stolen yestday and still very much disputed. Then toss into it the horrendous situation Gaza that was only next door which according to the Isreali side is home to thousands of terrorists then its exceptionally stupid to hold a festival next door to it.

Now if like say the north america, you stole the land 300 years ago and wiped out all the natives, so much time has passed and the troubles of that era are no longer applicable today. But Isreal/Palastine is alive as much today as it was when the first troubles broke out.

And dont make assumptions, about me justifying such things, i got plenty of posts on here saying the complete opposite. If there is one thing can stand is euro origin peoples trying to decide what other people are thinking and feeling.

If anything your posts seem to have been justifying Isreal which is disgraceful, abhorrent.
Look, would I go set up a music festival adjacent to a Native reserve in Canada? Probably not. You're probably putting yourself at risk of undo harm by the unhealthy people that live at the reserve. That's fair. But would I, at any time, suggest anything other than self-defense and / or the full extent of legal punishment for people who commit murder, regardless of their living conditions? No.

You might think it's silly and arrogant for people to have a music festival near to poor people lacking hope, but it sounds a lot to me like you're setting the conditions for excusing cold blooded murder, and deeming it not worthy of retaliation.

Also, please don't throw around the term genocide. This is not genocide. Palestinian population growth is at 2.8% (which is high globally) and is stabily growing. There is no risk of Palestinian people being systematically eliminated or becoming extinct, globally. Rather, this is Israel slowly trying to takeover the land that they both claim as theirs. Palestine is simply losing t
hat fight. Please reserve genocide for use in appropriate situations. Used to describe this situation it is nothing more than sensationalist.
 
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GoatsMilk

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Look, would I go set up a music festival adjacent to a Native reserve in Canada? Probably not. You're probably putting yourself at risk of undo harm by the unhealthy people that live at the reserve. That's fair. But would I, at any time, suggest anything other than self-defense and / or the full extent of legal punishment for people who commit murder, regardless of their living conditions? No.

Yep so my point was correct. Kind of like its dumb to play football on a minefield.

You might think it's silly and arrogant for people to have a music festival near to poor people lacking hope, but it sounds a lot to me like you're setting the conditions for excusing cold blooded murder, and deeming it not worthy of retaliation.

How you come to this outlandish conclusion?

Also, please don't throw around the term genocide. This is not genocide. Palestinian population growth is at 2.8% (which is high globally) and is stability growing. There is no risk of Palestinian people being systematically eliminated or becoming extinct, globally. Rather, this is Israel slowly trying to takeover the land that they both claim as theirs. Palestine is simply losing that fight. Please reserve genocide for use in appropriate situations.

As Turk whose people are relentlessly accused of genocide by the side who ignores what isreal is doing, I'm quite comfortable in calling this a genocide. A long protracted one at that. But it has all the hallmarks of genocide.

It actually sounds like you are doing what you are accusing me of. "but it sounds a lot to me like you're setting the conditions for excusing cold blooded murder, and deeming it not worthy of retaliation."

And truth be told killing civilians like the isrealis are doing cannot be justified because of hamas terrorists doing it. Even then the weight of whose killed mover civilians is about 99% Isreal vs 1% Palastine.
 

Relic

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Yep so my point was correct. Kind of like its dumb to play football on a minefield.



How you come to this outlandish conclusion?



As Turk whose people are relentlessly accused of genocide by the side who ignores what isreal is doing, I'm quite comfortable in calling this a genocide. A long protracted one at that. But it has all the hallmarks of genocide.
I would argue that it has none core tenants genocide as it is defined. I'd be curious to hear how a population that is growing at an incredibly fast rate and has growing pockets in other regions of the world, is facing genocide?
 

GoatsMilk

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I would argue that it has none core tenants genocide as it is defined. I'd be curious to hear how a population that is growing at an incredibly fast rate and has growing pockets in other regions of the world, is facing genocide?

"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

i think this is the UN

" crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part." Isreal definitely has shown "INTENT".

that was the first thing that came up on google. I'm not so concerned by it that i want to get into a long discussion over the inner legal workings of it. Maybe your right and it doesnt consituited genocide, maybe it constitutes something less evil then genocide. I'm not that bothered. The point is to show the difference in the weight of either sides crimes. Hamas is fucking terrible all these iranian backed terrorists are pure fucking trash, but the shit the IDF have done eclipses it tenfold at least in the context of Palestine.

But you diverted from your initial outlandish accusations against me. That somehow i was justifying hamas terrorism. If anything you are justifying Isreali terrorism.
 
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Baryshx

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Until the Gazi Atatürk passed away, British intelligence lived in dreadful fear of Atatürk's activities in Syria and Iraq. In recent years, many declassified intelligence documents have also come to light. They tried to follow our activities in those countries step by step. Apart from that, he had a special interest in the Iraq issue. Our political moves in Syria are also the stuff of textbooks.

So in short, I don't really believe in the truth of this sentence.
Those are specific to Hatay, Mosul and Kirkuk, not to Iraq and Syria as a whole.

Otherwise, what business do we have with Arabia, Jordan, Yemen, Syria, etc.? The Arabs can continue to be puppets of the West. They are already watching with great pleasure the killing and rape of other Arabs who are their brothers. We saw what happened in Iraq and Syria. We see how pathetic the Arabs are.
 

Bozan

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I love the current Erdogan a lot
He is playing on all the tropes within a matter of days
One time he supports Palestine, the other he supports Israel. Then he starts to demonise their backers, the US and Iran, yet suddenly start supporting both countries

Erdogan's foreign policy maneuvers, aside from the Morsi incident, has been quite good recently

Ever since the Ukrainian war, Erdogan is trying to pose Turkey as a decision maker within the region without pretty much lifting a finger. He is allowing all of Turkey's enemies from US, Iran, Israel, Hamas, and Russia to just continue beheading each other while acting as the Messiah





Pose is the word because he is the furthest thing from a global decision maker. He can't even make decisions about Idlib, refugees, Iran etc
 

Afif

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That assumes that Israel is in Palestine's house. Which brings us to the timeless argument of whose claim to the land is more legitimate. Considering there is no universal agreement

No, modern nation states right and and their action's legality does not depend on who has more historical legitimacy. because this is vwry much subjective and if we were to follow this, nobody can reach any settlement. Thus, It actually depends on international law.

it's technically "nobody's house" as recognized internationally, therefore, both parties are 100% in the wrong when they kill each other's civilians.

False, Israel has legitimate territory and and occupied territories. The later is not recognised by international community. And considered illegal. When I say Israel needs to expelled, I mean from illegally occupied territory. Not for their recognised territory.


"The International Court of Justice (ICJ),[3] the UN General Assembly,[4] and the UN Security Council all regard Israel as the occupying power for the territories.[5] UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falkcalled Israel's occupation "an affront to international law".[6] The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that Israel is holding the West Bank under "belligerent occupation".[7] According to the Sasson Report, the Supreme Court of Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than four decades that international law applies to Israel's presence in the West Bank."



Let me ask you this. You point out technicality in Israelis being trained as reservists and whether or not that means they are actually civilians... Do you see the same technicality in Hamas building their military infrastructure into Palestinian residential buildings, hospitals and communities? Do the buildings housing babies and sick people become legitimate military targets when they share military / militant purposes? Surely if civilians at a music festival or in their own homes can be possible military targets because they MIGHT have received training, so can civilians that live / work in the same dwelling as DEFINITE military infrastructure... Correct?

Except there is no such technicality in Inernational law that makes babies and sick people legitimate military targets.

Building tunnel for Military purpose makes it legitimate target, but does not make the babies themsleve that lives above as legitimate military targets.

There is clear distinction that you cannot outmanoeuvre it.

And that is why even lsrael like to claim (whether it is always true or not) that generally they warn civilian residents of a building that they want to strike beforehand in accord with international law.

On the other hand to best of my knowledge, army reservists are legitimate military targets.

If it is not like that, then I am ready to change my stance.

(You said might, but it is not a 'might' it is almost certain)
Again, this is not my problem that military training is compulsory
in Israel and every able man and women has to serve 2/3 years and then remain reservist until their 38/40s. (Unless specific and special extemptions are made)


Also- I am not justifying the shooting at the festival. What i am saying is, israeli army and its reservists unique status needs more investigation in light of the international law to reach any meaningful conclusion. But it could be something that we may not feel comfortable with. Or I have to be proven wrong.
 
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Baryshx

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Hamas is destroying the chances of statehood that can be achieved through secularism, democracy and human rights. I see Hamas as a tool and a toy of other states. Palestinians must get rid of this organization.

The importance of secularism and democracy. Without secularism and democracy, people under Shia and Sunni rule are doomed to hunger, misery and wars. They cannot raise their heads from religious terrorists and sectarian strife, the plaything of the imperialists. What awaits Islamic countries is to become like Afghanistan, Arabia and Iran. Let's see what will happen when the oil and natural gas runs out.
 

Lool

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Natenyahu, is intentionally escalating the situation
He is purposefully using Western media and selling fake news to justify his shitty nefarious causes even though the Israeli army itself stated that they had no proof of Hamas beheading children

He is going all in to restore his reputation and preserve his power as the prime minister. I cant believe that many Israelis and Palestinians lost their lives in this shitty drama just so that one man can preserve his authority and escape jail

 

Lool

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Hamas is destroying the chances of statehood that can be achieved through secularism, democracy and human rights. I see Hamas as a tool and a toy of other states. Palestinians must get rid of this organization.

The importance of secularism and democracy. Without secularism and democracy, people under Shia and Sunni rule are doomed to hunger, misery and wars. They cannot raise their heads from religious terrorists and sectarian strife, the plaything of the imperialists. What awaits Islamic countries is to become like Afghanistan, Arabia and Iran. Let's see what will happen when the oil and natural gas runs out.
Hm......
Hitler was a dictator yet was one of the most advanced nations of its time
China is a dictatorship and communist by nature yet it is advancing more than those democratic nations of yours due to its superior allocation of resources as well as fairness of the system

Idk why many believe that nations rise due to democracy and secularism? This is pure bullshit! Nations' rise mainly depends on fairness and justice..... period!

It doesnt matter if you are a dicator, king, shia, sunni, democratic or whatever..... as long as you have a fair and just system in place, your nation is eventually fated to rise.... period!

The US, the heart of democracy, is on the verge of having its global dominance collapsing only a 100 years after its founding thx to the so-called democracy of yours. Thx to democracy, the US ended up with Presidents like Biden and Trump ffs

Democracy in general is good for a lot of nations because it prevents those with ill intent from holding power; however, when those with ill intent succeed in a democracy, it turns to the worst possible governing system ever, a corrupt dictatorship..... Egypt, France, Russia, and eventually Israel are all prime examples.

Finally, Democracy is only good when the people are well educated; the moment they turn batshit crazy, democracy turns to be a horrible curse casted on the people

No system till date has been universally good and each nation can flourish under a different system of which China being a prime example and the US as well
 
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Nilgiri

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Too early to tell while i do share most of your point of end game ...

What most people see here is nothing but short time frame . While people like @Gary and me seeing this from a long term view. . Pacific flash point is nothing but a certain . Sooner or later US will get himself in a situation where they barely could give an attention elsewhere but to fend for themselves . They will come out on top no question about it ..but at what cost ? Think very hard people ...china today were germans X5 . What kind behemoth existences do you all need that can stop them ?? For all of their rhetoric and posturing sokor and japan knows how this thing going to play and lamented deep inside . Too bad they allready in US bandwagon and couldn't get off without a massive consequences ...

Live in reality people ..see more and hear more ..

I can talk about China and its own problems but thats a whole other topic.

I'll just leave these numbers here for citizen vs expat populations of some countries:

Qatar: 0.3 million vs 2.3 million
UAE: 1 million vs 9 million
KSA: 18 million vs 14 million
Kuwait: 1 million vs 3 million
Bahrain: 0.7 million vs 0.8 million

The solution for Gazans predicament (caught in hellhole purgatory with hamas being the apex spear) should be easy one if Arab world thinks in proper long term way within the relevant forseeable horizon. That they didn't do very well with Syria, but it can be changed/adapted for Palestinian cause rather than the hypocrisy shown so far compared to the big talk by large parts of Arab world with commensurate privilege.

Palestine will be 100% retained in West Bank where the holy sites are. Islam will not abandon there one iota, so its different to Gaza. So it is best to consolidate there, wait things out and grow... and not bring hamas kind of factions to sacrifice more things recklessly like pawns at Iran's bidding there.

This was shaped in large deal by my sustained discussion with a good Palestinian friend over many years. But its all easier to talk about than put into action with millions of other minds in the fray with their own experiences.

But IMO, in process of more calmer principled praxis and growth you likely will find better rooted virtue as well which dulls the rough edges of identity wars (religions included) and improves the better things about the human endeavour, purpose and meaning in the transitional stage of nationstates we have now in human civilisation.

That would make conflicts like these redundant altogether in pattern like done of the older (pre nationstate) ones....is there great vengeance to be sought upon the Romans of today for the actions of Rome long ago upon Jerusalem? A Jew may freely walk under the Arch of Titus (the rabbinate made it officially fine explicitly in recent century), its a tourist attraction now...though I suppose he is free to speculate what lies in the vaults of the vatican that may have once resided in the temple mount....and that may one day be unlocked too with wiser human reform and progress.

Barbarism has reduced a great deal (% pop afflicted/total) in the last 1000 years (which reduced in turn from the 1000 years preceding it) but it will never quite be fully gone.....but we know enough to keep it minimal if we apply the right principled enlightened system....there are many tools to resolve disputes by sheer force of weight without need of taking human life, which is precious to every moral system underlying every large religion....tracing back to the common golden rule.

China will surprise a lot of you on Taiwan that way I still feel (contrary to what is put out in largest parts of world media fearful of China). Use your weight and gravity in low risk instead of your punch and high risk. But maybe I am wrong. I only speak Cantonese and grew up in HK, it is only a drop in the world of China as much as I try improve my mandarin now....despite the CCP having made me persona non-grata in HK for I rebelled in ways not to their liking. But China is far larger than the CCP in the end. No one knows it better than the Chinese themselves....that will be the path of China's slow redemption....because the economic rise and military strength is not sufficient thing on its own.

Anyway it is imperative that Arab world (especially establishment) becomes wiser and think long term. They are riven by too much corruption, hypocrisy and emotional big talking (rather than constructive wise "wait it out" measures that would serve the palestinians the best)...the oil wealth has dulled their senses where they have most levers at disposal. They get led by follies quite easily. Idle minds and idle time have made the situation quite hollow and delusional. You cant organise things on delusion.

Hey but hope springs eternal.
 

Baryshx

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Hm......
Hitler was a dictator yet was one of the most advanced nations of its time
China is a dictatorship and communist by nature yet it is advancing more than those democratic nations of yours due to its superior allocation of resources as well as fairness of the system

Idk why many believe that nations rise due to democracy and secularism? This is pure bullshit! Nations' rise mainly depends on fairness and justice..... period!

It doesnt matter if you are a dicator, king, shia, sunni, democratic or whatever..... as long as you have a fair and just system in place, your nation is eventually fated to rise.... period!

The US, the heart of democracy, is on the verge of having its global dominance collapsing only a 100 years after its founding thx to the so-called democracy of yours. Thx to democracy, the US ended up with Presidents like Biden and Trump ffs

Democracy in general is good for a lot of nations because it prevents those with ill intent from holding power; however, when those with ill intent succeed in a democracy, it turns to the worst possible governing system ever, a corrupt dictatorship..... Egypt, France, Russia, and eventually Israel are all prime examples.

Finally, Democracy is only good when the people are well educated; the moment they turn batshit crazy, democracy turns to be a horrible curse casted on the people

No system till date has been universally good and each nation can flourish under a different system of which China being a prime example and the US as well

Do I need to write extra about justice and equality? You should understand this from what I wrote. I have often mentioned justice and equality in my previous writings. In fact, human rights encompass all of these.
 

dBSPL

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Those are specific to Hatay, Mosul and Kirkuk, not to Iraq and Syria as a whole.

Otherwise, what business do we have with Arabia, Jordan, Yemen, Syria, etc.? The Arabs can continue to be puppets of the West. They are already watching with great pleasure the killing and rape of other Arabs who are their brothers. We saw what happened in Iraq and Syria. We see how pathetic the Arabs are.
Many issues, including the federated state model, were evaluated and studied at a time when they concerned the whole of Iraq and Syria. Atatürk was not someone who wanted to cut ties with the Arabs and said to hell with them as you think. Atatürk was first of all a great statesman who was able to gain their sympathy 5 years after he drove the Greeks into the sea. The Shah of Iran came to Ankara and said you are a commander, I am a soldier... Atatürk was well aware of the heritage and potential of the Turkish state. On the other hand, the British colonial administrations at that time were people who served in the same positions in the same state as our founding cadres by the way. General Staff of Iraq was an Ottoman officer, the prime minister was, I think, the governor of Batumi and so on (I am writing as far as I remember, even if I am wrong about the positions, there are too many examples)... So we need to look at things in their own time also...

I don't know if it's worth discussing because it's an off-topic, but we have opposite opinions on this subject, dear friend.
 
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