TR Land Vehicle Programs

[Merzifonlu]

Will it need to be charged when the battery runs out or will the generator continuously supply power?

Countinously supply mostly.

The main function of batteries in serial hybrid system is a kind of "buffering". In other words, electric motors need very high current during the first start. The current produced by the diesel (generator) engine is insufficient in those first moments. Batteries fill this gap.

In a vehicle that has gained speed, the high current requirement decreases and the current produced by the diesel engine is sufficient to maintain the movement. Batteries are not always used at high performance. Therefore, there is no need for large battery banks in serial hybrid system.

 

[Tsenal]

Countinously supply mostly.

The main function of batteries in serial hybrid system is a kind of "buffering". In other words, electric motors need very high current during the first start. The current produced by the diesel (generator) engine is insufficient in those first moments. Batteries fill this gap.

In a vehicle that has gained speed, the high current requirement decreases and the current produced by the diesel engine is sufficient to maintain the movement. Batteries are not always used at high performance. Therefore, there is no need for large battery banks in serial hybrid system.

I'm not very knowledgeable about this topic, How is a 2.8 liter generator enough to keep up with the constant demand when a diesel drive train needs 18 liters to generate 1000 hp power?

 

[Heartbang]

I'm not very knowledgeable about this topic, How is a 2.8 liter generator enough to keep up with the constant demand when a diesel drive train needs 18 liters to generate 1000 hp power?

demand isnt constant tho, thats the point.

 

[Tsenal]

demand isnt constant tho, thats the point.

What if the demand was constant? If it was to travel at full speed, will the generator keep the providing power until it runs out of fuel?

 

[Anmdt]

What if the demand was constant? If it was to travel at full speed, will the generator keep the providing power until it runs out of fuel?

They should make the hybrid drive in parallel configuration, serial one is an amateur job.
Electric motor and engine should have direct drive capability independently or together, the new tech of electrical motors allow this to happen.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I'm not very knowledgeable about this topic, How is a 2.8 liter generator enough to keep up with the constant demand when a diesel drive train needs 18 liters to generate 1000 hp power?

There are three points you need to consider before understanding that you don’t need the 2.8 litre generator to generate 1000HP power.
1. The Firtina howitzer is not a vehicle on the move all the time. It has to be stationary for extended periods.
2. It will not have to exert itself to it’s limits whilst on the move, as a MBT engine would.
3. This is not a Diesel engine that powers a truck. It is an electric generator.
It takes 4 hours to fully charge the batteries. When the howitzer is stationary or just ticking over on a flat road or downhill it could still be charging the battery.
Once on the move it doesn’t need a lot of power to propel itself.
As explained earlier think of a 300hp 3litre turbo powered engine in a road car. To develop 300hp, it will have to be at ~6000rpm. (In 5th gear to reach that power it will have to travel at 250+km) But when cruising, at a given speed in 5th gear (say 120km) and given torque level, it will be ~1200rpm and developing no more than 60-70hp.
So same analogy applies when the 2.8litre generator that provides current to the electric motors of the howitzer. It would be sufficient to cruise under that power, without utilising battery power, if needed. If battery power is used, it is continually charged by the generator anyway and since it is utilising only a 5th of the total power it can develop, it will last a long time.

 

[Yasar_TR]

What if the demand was constant? If it was to travel at full speed, will the generator keep the providing power until it runs out of fuel?

You don’t drive your car at 6000rpm in first gear all the time. Demand is NEVER constant.

 

[Tsenal]

You don’t drive your car at 6000rpm in first gear all the time. Demand is NEVER constant.

In a hypothetical scenario where the electricity consumption is constantly at %100, is the generator enough to provide uninterrupted electricity until it runs out of fuel? Will the vehicle need to stop after a while for the batteries to recharge or will the generator keep the batteries topped up?

 

[Yasar_TR]

They should make the hybrid drive in parallel configuration, serial one is an amateur job.
Electric motor and engine should have direct drive capability independently or together, the new tech of electrical motors allow this to happen.

On the contrary, the diesel electric hybrid system in series is not an amateur job. But it is the simplest way to convert electric energy to mechanical energy.
Please remember that, here there is NO engine. But a diesel electric generator. This generator’s electric supply is enough to drive the electric motors when cruising.
Hybrids that use a series drivetrain only receive mechanical power from the electric motor, which is run by either a battery or a gasoline-powered generator or both in conjunction. In hybrids with parallel drivetrains, the electric motor and internal combustion engine can provide mechanical power simultaneously or separately as well. Series drivetrains enable the generator and electric motor to provide power independently or in conjunction with one another. A computer decides how much power is used from batteries or generator.
With a parallel set up you would need some form of transmission to convert internal combustion engine’s power to mechanical power. (unless you have an ingenious method like Honda hybrid drivetrain where in fact the engine acts as an electric generator to provide current directly to the electric motors)

 

[UkroTurk]

You don’t drive your car at 6000rpm in first gear all the time. Demand is NEVER constant.

But you must be prepared sudden changes in any scenario in the war. İn ww2 Americans used wenkel/radial aviation engines in their tanks.

 

[Merzifonlu]

But you must be prepared sudden changes in any scenario in the war.

True.

Therefore, unlike the Howitzers, which are not expected to be in constant motion, 2.8-liter generator will not be sufficient for MBTs. Much more powerful generators will be needed. IMO 850 HP and above will be required for MBTs.

On the other hand, even MBTs do not require continuous maximum torque. In the tests, it will be revealed how much power generator and how much power batteries are needed for MBTs. As long as the tests on the Howitzer are successful and let's see ahead.

 

[UkroTurk]

Still The turboshaft seems lighter and more compact solution for getting 850hp from an engine. Does TEI have 850hp turboshaft?

Wankels are also compact but they can't run on diesel while turboshaft can burn everything.

İ would prefer our vehicles run on different type of fuel.

Moreover people saying on internet Abrams engine Less noisy than diesels.


İmagine ALTAY hybrid uses Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 that weights 120kg as generator!

 

[Zafer]

A TS1400 engine can be derated to 1000hp and be used as a generator. Along with a few tons of batteries it can power the tank very well. With the amount of power it generates you can even operate lasers and rail-guns from a tank chassis.

 

[CAN_TR]

Moreover people saying on internet Abrams engine Less noisy than diesels.

Their engines drink fuel like a thirsty elephant, which obviously means less range. They need longer to start up, they need a lot of air which means cleaning the filter regulary (maintenance intensive) and bigger thermal signature because the exhaust is literally a flamethrower.

Technically you can even pour vegetable oil in a Diesel engine and it will run, same with Kerosene, Heating Oil, Ethanol...

 

[Zafer]

Their engines drink fuel like a thirsty elephant, which obviously means less range. They need longer to start up, they need a lot of air which means cleaning the filter regulary (maintenance intensive) and bigger thermal signature because the exhaust is literally a flamethrower.

Technically you can even pour vegetable oil in a Diesel engine and it will run, same with Kerosene, Heating Oil, Ethanol...

They can use heat recuperators to get back some of the heat lost.

 

[UkroTurk]

drink fuel like

Kerosene is easier to produce than diesel fuel. As generator you could switch the engine at most economical RPMs.

 

[Heartbang]

Abrams engine Less noisy than diesels

the abrams engine makes about the same amount of noise as its contemporaries. its just in a higher pitch. :/

 

[CAN_TR]

Kerosene is easier to produce than diesel fuel. As generator you could switch the engine at most economical RPMs.

Why do you think that beside some client states nobody bought the M1 Abrams and every other Tank manufacturing country is relying on Diesel?

The Gas Turbine might sound tempting with it's more compact size, higher power/weight ratio, multi fuel capability but fact is they're not as reliable, not fuel efficient and the most important factor much more maitenance intensive.

 

[UkroTurk]

Why do you think that beside some client states nobody bought the M1 Abrams and every other Tank manufacturing country is relying on Diesel?

The Gas Turbine might sound tempting with it's more compact size, higher power/weight ratio, multi fuel capability but fact is they're not as reliable, not fuel efficient and the most important factor much more maitenance intensive.

Okay i've given up. M1ABRAMsında t80inde taaaa AMK

 

[Yasar_TR]

In a hypothetical scenario where the electricity consumption is constantly at %100, is the generator enough to provide uninterrupted electricity until it runs out of fuel? Will the vehicle need to stop after a while for the batteries to recharge or will the generator keep the batteries topped up?

One does not design a power train on the basis of hypothetical scenarios; But one designs it in accordance with real life scenarios.
Nevertheless to answer your question; If you use 100% loading of electrical power, probably, the batteries will run out before the fuel in the generator would. How long this would take is anybody’s guess as we do not have enough data in hand to know this, since it is really only known by the designers and the users of the tank.
Remember this is a symbiotic relationship between the batteries and the generator. How much of the generator’s electric power is used for charging the batteries and how much of it is used for powering the electric motors is controlled by a computer. The tank driver has to use his tank cleverly, to conserve battery power and generator fuel, just like a Leo2a4’s driver taking care to use less diesel to extend his range.
For the E-Firtina, at full load conditions, with real life scenarios, they are quoting approximately 300km range as opposed to 226km range of the diesel engined Firtina.
As per @merzifonlu ’s post, for a tank like Altay, the battery capacity and the generator electrical power generation levels will be quite different.
One thing that is important is the torque factor. E-Firtina electrical power train produces 10000Nm of torque as opposed to the Altay’s 1500HP MTU engine’s 4550Nm torque. So a higher powered electric power train to propel Altay will develop close to 3 times the torque that the German engine can muster. This will mean very easy standing start and quick acceleration. Also much easier handling of the extra weight we will have on the tank.
For those who can’t really differentiate between power and torque, I like this analogy:
torque is the force you feel pushing you back in your seat on acceleration, while horsepower is the speed achieved at the end of that acceleration