Leopard 2A 6/7/8 Main Battle Tank

[Gary]

A drone with 3kg warhead go through its armor, it must be the best)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667489504666558465

Here is the world record)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667180602158620672

Keep acting like you didnt see these, plus new kamikaze drones hunting leo2 tanks)

The 1st vid = Leo2 ok

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667505558876831745

2nd vid = video too blurry to actually makes any conclusion on the object

 

[Agha Sher]

A drone with 3kg warhead go through its armor, it must be the best)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667489504666558465

Here is the world record)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667180602158620672

Keep acting like you didnt see these, plus new kamikaze drones hunting leo2 tanks)

Not certain if this is a L2 turret toss

 

[Afif]

A drone with 3kg warhead go through its armor, it must be the best)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667489504666558465

Do you understand how HEAT charges works?

Lancet will go through all tank's armor from the top angle that its attacks.

Because, simply there is no tank yet with thick enough top armor. (Also one of the reason why modern tank lile Leopard-2 A8 has APS)

Here is the world record)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667180602158620672

Keep acting like you didnt see these, plus new kamikaze drones hunting leo2 tanks)

I literally talked about in my first post.
It is not my problem that you have comprehension issue.

Clearly, Leopard-2's turret is still attached to its hull after destruction.

The video you are sharing is not verified to be L2.

And even if it were, it would not have made any difference. Because it could happen to any other western tank as @Gary explained previously.

Actually the design of hull ammo storage isn't that alien to begin with, yeah its dangerous but tanks are designed with compromise. I wouldn't say its a native weakness to the Leo as many tanks of similar generation uses hull ammo bunker which if hit and explode would make little difference.

Abrams.

Leclerc

Altay

Leo 2 (A6 variant has 2 less ammo round in the hull as A4, but config remains the same)

Ariete

And last but not the least, you keep forgetting, I am not talking about L2 A6, I am talking about L2 A8 being the best. Which has considerable improvement over older versions.

 

[AzeriTank]

Do you understand how HEAT charges works?

Lancet will go through all tank's armor from the top angle that its attacks.

Because, simply there is no tank yet with thick enough top armor. (Also one of the reason why modern tank lile Leopard-2 A8 has APS)



I literally talked about in my first post.
It is not my problem that you have comprehension issue.

View attachment 58242

Clearly, Leopard-2's turret is still attached to its hull after destruction.

The video you are sharing is not verified to be L2.

And even if it were, it would not have made any difference. Because it could happen to any other western tank as @Gary explained previously.




And last but not the least, you keep forgetting, I am not talking about L2 A6, I am talking about L2 A8 being the best. Which has considerable improvement over older versions.

Seems like you still didnt understand what i mean, and didnt even try to search on your own.
This is how Leo2 keep sime ammunition inside, open way. If 3kg warhead drone(which easier to make), able to penetrate the armor, it will simply blow it up one day, or any antitant missile with highter warhead.
If you guve attention, the drone did not hit from the top, but from the side where it had to have the armor to protect it. This is the biggest design flaw, it shouldnt keep any ammunition inside.
So you still call it the best with flaw design? We turks have a proverb, its not a shame not to know something, but its a shame not to learn about it.
“Bilmemek ayib deyil, oyrenmemek ayibdir.”

 

[Afif]

Seems like you still didnt understand what i mean, and didnt even try to search on your own.
This is how Leo2 keep sime ammunition inside, open way. If 3kg warhead drone(which easier to make), able to penetrate the armor, it will simply blow it up one day, or any antitant missile with highter warhead.
If you guve attention, the drone did not hit from the top, but from the side where it had to have the armor to protect it.
So you still call it the best with flaw design? We turks have a proverb, its not a shame not to know something, but its a shame not to learn about it.
“Bilmemek ayib deyil, oyrenmemek ayibdir.”

Duh, guess who didn't read the full post before replying.

This is the biggest design flaw, it shouldnt keep any ammunition inside.
So you still call it the best with flaw design?
View attachment 58252

Most of the Western tanks including Altay has the similar design for reserve ammunition compartment.


Altay

M1 Abrams

Lecrec.

Leo-2 A4

Only reason we don't have videos of other tanks getting blown up because they are yet to be deployed extensively in the battlefield.

 

[AzeriTank]

Duh, guess who didn't read the full post before replying.




Most of the Western tank including Altay has the similar design for reserve ammuntion compartment.


Altay
View attachment 58254

M1 Abrams
View attachment 58257

Lecrec.
View attachment 58255

Leo-2 A4
View attachment 58256



Only reason we don't have videos of other tanks getting blown up because they weren't deployed extensively in the battlefield yet.

Then tell me, what makes Leo2 the best then? Not a single advantage over other, instead its proven in Syria and again in Ukraine that it has very bad armor, which is one of the most important part pf tank

 

[Gary]

Then tell me, what makes Leo2 the best then? Not a single advantage over other, instead its proven in Syria and again in Ukraine that it has very bad armor, which is one of the most important part pf tank

Leopard 2 reputation comes from tests (for example Swedish army test resulting in the selection of the Strv 121/122) … not mentioning it regularly won the many competition like the Strong Europe tank challenge.

 

[AzeriTank]

Leopard 2 reputation comes from tests (for example Swedish army test resulting in the selection of the Strv 121/122) … not mentioning it regularly won the many competition like the Strong Europe tank challenge.

We all agree that Leo2 was the first one that created the heavy tank, they got some many new advancement, but they didnt keep up with world development and left behind in armor, same like Russians. It doesnt even have the top attack active protection system on their own. We see how vulnerable tanks are against kamikaze drones and top attack missiles. Let me tell you this, today, leo2 tanks has no power to change the direction of warfare or stop being hit by cheaper devices. Then how can you call it the best? It doesnt even have RWS and we know hoe Turkey use RWS with sniper detection system. Also it can work together with radar. Imagine having 30mm air burst rws against those coming kamikaze drones

 

[AzeriTank]

It applies to everybody, if you say something bigger than your head, calling something the best, you better prove it or come up simething to support it, otherwise in my eyes its just a lie and bias. Russians also call their t90 or t14 the best tank, whats your difference then?

 

[Afif]

We all agree that Leo2 was the first one that created the heavy tank, they got some many new advancement, but they didnt keep up with world development and left behind in armor, same like Russians. It doesnt even have the top attack active protection system on their own. We see how vulnerable tanks are against kamikaze drones and top attack missiles. Let me tell you this, today, leo2 tanks has no power to change the direction of warfare or stop being hit by cheaper devices. Then how can you call it the best? It doesnt even have RWS and we know hoe Turkey use RWS with sniper detection system. Also it can work together with radar. Imagine having 30mm air burst rws against those coming kamikaze drones

That is why we talking about Leo-2 A8. Which has considerable improvements over A6.

 

[AzeriTank]

That is why we talking about Leo-2 A8. Which has considerable improvements over A6.

View attachment 58258

You first talked about leo2a4, then when i showed that you are wrong, you then mentioned that you talk about Leo2a6, and now you talk about leo2a8)) you are like an english flag now, so lets see where else you are going to change it.
First, i said no local APS against top attack. Leo2a8 use israeli version.
second, without proper armor, those aps will protect you max from 2 shots, eavh cost 500$, whats after that?
Third, Altay has its own local production, then why not call it the best, where it even have more protection for top attacks. Again you are biased for some reason, as true colors comes up day by day.
I dont even think the Israeli version has been proved for top attack missiles, correct me if im wrong, i leave a question here.
it has the worst performance for cost among the tanks, thats the fact. But yeah, Afif will call it best eithout a single proof as we all know it already)

 

[Afif]

You first talked about leo2a4, then when i showed that you are wrong, you then mentioned that you talk about Leo2a6, and now you talk about leo2a8)) you are like an english flag now, so lets see where else you are going to change it.

Oh really?

this is my very first post in the thread

I wouldn’t say it is worth it. But after all, it is the best operational MBT out there.
(Challenger-3, T-14 Armata, Abrams X or KF-51 Panther is not operational yet)

In response to-

Order volume for 18 Leopard 2A8 tanks is 525 Mio. EUR. So almost 30 Mio.EUR per tank

And this is my first post

Oh man, it really looks like I am living rent-free in your head.

Anyway, turret of destroyed leo2a6 didn't almost reached the space. It was right where i supposed to be. (Still attached to the chesis.)

View attachment 58203

Then again, you couldn't comprehend.

I am talking about Leopard-2 A8 which has considerable improvements over Leopard-2 A6.

And what do you expect exactly?
Irrespective of who produced it, no contemporary tank on earth would have survive a heavy 152/155mm round hit. Leopard 2 is no exception.


Being best does not necessarily means invincible. In any offensive and counter-offensiv, heavy and sophisticated equipment losses are quite normal.

@Gary said, Abrams (probably A2 SEPv4) would fit the description of being the best.

Then again, there are photos of Abrams burning.

But that does not necessarily disprove his claim.

in response to your post

Thats the reason just yesterday the turret of destroyed leo2a6 almost reached to the space..) but this Afif guy will swear that its the best)

Clearly, in my very first response, I specifically stated I am talking about Leo-2 A8 being the best.

I am keeping this conversation civil. But it is not my fault that you got comprehension issue.
Do not falsely accuse others of changing the goalpost when this is not what is happening here.


@Gary wrote in response of my second Post.

Post in thread 'Leopard 2A 6/7/8 Main Battle Tank'
https://defencehub.live/threads/leopard-2a-6-7-8-main-battle-tank.9285/post-273207

 

[Gary]

We all agree that Leo2 was the first one that created the heavy tank,

No, Leo 2 is not a heavy tank, its an MBT, a concept of which first comes into form with the Soviet T-54.

they got some many new advancement, but they didnt keep up with world development and left behind in armor, same like Russians. It doesnt even have the top attack active protection system on their own.

Strv 122 has add on armor on its roof. In the end its the matter of choice (and money)

Also on the Spanish Leo 2E

We see how vulnerable tanks are against kamikaze drones and top attack missiles. Let me tell you this, today, leo2 tanks has no power to change the direction of warfare or stop being hit by cheaper devices. Then how can you call it the best? It doesnt even have RWS and we know hoe Turkey use RWS with sniper detection system. Also it can work together with radar. Imagine having 30mm air burst rws against those coming kamikaze drones

Some do have RWS. Again in the end money talks.

The latest 2A8 will have not only increased armor, more powerful guns (L55A1) also a more powerful engine @ 1600bhp. Add that with RWS, improved C2, Trophy ADS etc, its still imo the top 2 tanks along with M1A2 SEP V3

 

[Gary]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667438155916783616

 

[I_Love_F16]

Even if tanks are monsters full of armor, they shouldn’t take a hit in the first place. Because it can still knock-out the crew and seriously incapacitate the tank. Hence why you always hide, preferably in a hull-down position, because it doesn’t matter if you have the best armor in the world, if you are a sitting duck in an open terrain, you will be dead.

 

[AzeriTank]

Even if tanks are monsters full of armor, they shouldn’t take a hit in the first place. Because it can still knock-out the crew and seriously incapacitate the tank. Hence why you always hide, preferably in a hull-down position, because it doesn’t matter if you have the best armor in the world, if you are a sitting duck in an open terrain, you will be dead.

Its wrong, the whole purpose of the tank is to cut through the defensive line of enemy, thats why its the heaviest vehicle out there.. you will face Tank guns, anti tank missiles and even kamikaze drones as you will be the first one entering the enemy zone. Its not made to go on the parades

 

[AzeriTank]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667438155916783616

Even this design is a flaw, what happens if it heats the first tank round from the front? You will lose both the thermal cameras and expensive radar, look at Altay how nice its decided and connected to the tank, on the sides. Even the tank get hit by 120 or even 30mm guns from front(its the most probably place to get hit and thats why tanks have the highest protection there).
again, when you call it the best, it needs to have some advantage over others, where we see no advantage but all flaw design or at least the same capabilities..
just now, Ukraine lost 4 more Leo tanks in another attack.
Still nobody answered my question..

 

[Huelague]

German 'Wunderwaffe' myth coming to an end.

 

[Gary]

View attachment 58274
Even this design is a flaw,

Design flaw ? hello ? I hope the KMW engineers take note. lmao

what happens if it heats the first tank round from the front? You will lose both the thermal cameras and expensive radar, look at Altay how nice its decided and connected to the tank, on the sides. Even the tank get hit by 120 or even 30mm guns from front(its the most probably place to get hit and thats why tanks have the highest protection there).
again,

So what ? The active protection system of the Altay will stop working after it got hit too. You do realize that these are accesorial in nature right ? you could fit it or remove it per requirement. The same applies to the anti drone system you boast in Altay, the Germans has the equivalent of that too and it's up to costumers need (and money) to fit one

Yes this is fitted to the FLW 200 mount, the same RWS mount used on the 2A7+. 2A7HU and later 2A8.

when you call it the best, it needs to have some advantage over others, where we see no advantage but all flaw design or at least the same capabilities..
just now, Ukraine lost 4 more Leo tanks in another attack.
Still nobody answered my question..

There are 3 things in general that designers are concerned with when designing a tank :

1. Mobility
2. Firepower
3. Protection

In the old days designers pick one of these while sacrificng other. Tanks (all tanks included) are designed with compromise. For example if you want a heavy tank, tank designers ignore mobility requirement to maximize firepower and armor (protection), in a light tank firepower and protection are sacrificed for better mobilty.

An MBT like a Leo 2 has the Mobility of a light-medium tank combined with the protection and firepower of a heavy tank. Same for all MBT but theirnumbers does differ

Lets talk firepower. The Leopard 2A7-A8 has the world most powerful tank gun the Rheinmetall RH120 L55A1.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667496250780909569

The L55A1 has the highest design pressure chamber of all current 120mm gun at 760MPa, larger than the French GIAT CN 120-26 at 670MPa, the Korean-Turkish CN08 at 690MPa.​

​

Just to give you an idea the short L44 variant has a larger chamber pressure than even the French, Korean-Turkish 120mm solution at 700MPa. That''s German accumulated know how on metallurgy right there.​

​

That is just the gun, we're not talking the APFSDS technology of Germany. Unless you're using DU tip munitions like the Americans, German tungsten sabot rounds like the DM53/63 are long regarded as the most advanced KE rounds out there. And there's even a new more improved one the DM73 and the KE2020Neo rounds being developed right now.​

​

Firepower, the German win​

Lets talk mobility, the 40 years old MTU 873 is one of the few tank engine that could develop 1500hp out there and its more advanced variant, the EuroPower pack (MTU 883+Renk transmission) develop the same amount of horsepower while being so compact compared to other engines that means a huge TWR ratio.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181172823823392768

So good is this power pack that rich gulf nations like the UAE swapped their original Wartsilla engine on the Leclerc Tropique and replaced it with EPP engine. Even though they develop the same output.

The 2A8 will have a new 1600hp engine, tell me how many tanks out there with similar output ? Not mentioning a refined transmission unit that will be fitted as per this post. IIRC Turkey has only recently manage to fix the transmission problem. The Germans has the wealth of generations of knwo how about tank transmission and their industry continuously refined those.

Here's some graphics on the MTU 883 (in 1500hp and 1630hp output) compared to similar engine from the DV27K (used in in K2 and Altay) credit to Windchime. You could see the engine is delivered more isntant from the lower rpm on the German engine.

Mobility, again, the German win.

 

[AzeriTank]

Design flaw ? hello ? I hope the KMW engineers take note. lmao


So what ? The active protection system of the Altay will stop working after it got hit too. You do realize that these are accesorial in nature right ? you could fit it or remove it per requirement. The same applies to the anti drone system you boast in Altay, the Germans has the equivalent of that too and it's up to costumers need (and money) to fit one

Yes this is fitted to the FLW 200 mount, the same RWS mount used on the 2A7+. 2A7HU and later 2A8.




There are 3 things in general that designers are concerned with when designing a tank :

1. Mobility
2. Firepower
3. Protection

In the old days designers pick one of these while sacrificng other. Tanks (all tanks included) are designed with compromise. For example if you want a heavy tank, tank designers ignore mobility requirement to maximize firepower and armor (protection), in a light tank firepower and protection are sacrificed for better mobilty.

An MBT like a Leo 2 has the Mobility of a light-medium tank combined with the protection and firepower of a heavy tank. Same for all MBT but theirnumbers does differ

Lets talk firepower. The Leopard 2A7-A8 has the world most powerful tank gun the Rheinmetall RH120 L55A1.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667496250780909569

The L55A1 has the highest design pressure chamber of all current 120mm gun at 760MPa, larger than the French GIAT CN 120-26 at 670MPa, the Korean-Turkish CN08 at 690MPa.​

​

Just to give you an idea the short L44 variant has a larger chamber pressure than even the French, Korean-Turkish 120mm solution at 700MPa. That''s German accumulated know how on metallurgy right there.​

​

That is just the gun, we're not talking the APFSDS technology of Germany. Unless you're using DU tip munitions like the Americans, German tungsten sabot rounds like the DM53/63 are long regarded as the most advanced KE rounds out there. And there's even a new more improved one the DM73 and the KE2020Neo rounds being developed right now.​

​

Firepower, the German win​

Lets talk mobility, the 40 years old MTU 873 is one of the few tank engine that could develop 1500hp out there and its more advanced variant, the EuroPower pack (MTU 883+Renk transmission) develop the same amount of horsepower while being so compact compared to other engines that means a huge TWR ratio.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181172823823392768

So good is this power pack that rich gulf nations like the UAE swapped their original Wartsilla engine on the Leclerc Tropique and replaced it with EPP engine. Even though they develop the same output.

The 2A8 will have a new 1600hp engine, tell me how many tanks out there with similar output ? Not mentioning a refined transmission unit that will be fitted as per this post. IIRC Turkey has only recently manage to fix the transmission problem. The Germans has the wealth of generations of knwo how about tank transmission and their industry continuously refined those.

Here's some graphics on the MTU 883 (in 1500hp and 1630hp output) compared to similar engine from the DV27K (used in in K2 and Altay) credit to Windchime. You could see the engine is delivered more isntant from the lower rpm on the German engine.

Mobility, again, the German win.

in new war, mobility doesnt save you as much as it used to, where there are tank mines everywhere, which stops you and simply make you follow the mine cleaning machines which are slow itself, you can see it in latest Ukranian war. Otherwise, Russians also make small tank with good wight to power ratio like 90, but what save you is the good armor(thats what tanks for, being protected better than other vehicles, and able to attack under protection) and good aps. the reason Germans couldnt designed it well, because its not their radar, so they deigned the tank and added it later which doesnt work. Let me tell you something else, which is fact and mentioned by Turkish designers too, if the radar is not yours, you cannot make RWS work with radar which you can use them in the future against drone like air burst ammunitions). instead of answering my question, which makes sense, you for some reason acting like Afif and always try to change the topic. we freaking talking about the tank and we are here to discuss the details,
Everybody love German power pack, Koreans use it, even Leclerc that UAE purchased years ago using it, so they are the best too? they can be best in power to weight ration, but it doesnt make them the best tank, because Germany is not good with the armor technology which is the fact, thats why they always go with the heaviest vehicles
Turkey also makes those 40mm air burst weapons, but what if its raining, cloudy and so on, thats why radar always works with therma cameras. Also, you cannot watch with that camera 360 but you can with the radar. It should be hard to understand what i mean i guess.