Malaysia LCA Program News & Discussion

[Indos]

I dont think Israel component will be a problem for Malaysia, if the plane is made by Israel then it will be a problem. Same thing like happening in Indonesia. We also understand the word " emergency" and not strickly impose economic embargo to Israel since acquiring their defense related components are rather allowed due to that "emergency" situation.

 

[Brokengineer]

I do not know, why some of you trying to underestimate Tejas and overestimate Hurjet. You are simply calling an operational plane as failure and offering non functioning plane as an alternative. What happens some problem occurs that causes serious delays in project. Are you gonna offer them simulators to defend the country?
You can say that Tejas mk1 did not meet IAF expectations. Same is valid for f35.
I understand the excitements and optimism from the developments but i do not understand making bs statements for rival offers to come up with "best contender" claims.

 

[Zafer]

overestimate Hurjet

No I haven't. I have never said it will come out perfectly from production.

But you have to give that it has all the good design features that only need to be validated through production.
It has 20% more range over both Indian and Korean planes.
It is the latest design, being the latest it is supposed to have the latest features.
It is being developed by a company that has much bigger TFX fighter development work going on. Experiences from TFX development will effect the quality of the Hürjet. It is also supposed to have a navy variant which the Korean plane does not.

The maker company TAI has many more development underway that has the potential to offer helicopters and air superiority fighters. So the potential of cooperation is beyond the trainer tender alone.

 

[Manomed]

Here's the Uttam AESA already integrated and tested on the Tejas. I heard they're developing Uttam Mk-2 which would be smaller in size but increase in number of TRMs which'll go into MWF and TEDBF

View attachment 38640

This is a very old picture btw

 

[Zapper]

Make 2 will have canards?
It is a different design all together that still needs to be matured, taking many years

The Mk-2 will have canards and a slightly larger airframe but essentially the same as Mk-1 and that's about the only difference when it comes to airframe. We've done years of flight testing on the Mk-1, developed technologies and sub-systems which will all be integrated onto Mk-2. Since we have most of the systems already in place, freezing the Mk-2 design didn't take much time

Tejas being failure is not exactly my observation but of those who commented on it in their articles.

The foreign lobby is extremely strong in India. Even now, articles pop up every now and then that IAF is favoring a particular jet be it the Gripen or F-16 or F-18 or Mig/Su-35 based on whoever pays these media outlets. Bottom line is which jet did IAF eventually go for!!

If a foreign firm is pitching a particular weapons system to the Indian armed forces but there is also a local alternative available, there'd be a ton of media articles popping outta nowhere belittling the indigenous offering as a failed project

Even the Indian Navy rejected it. It is a baby only his mother can love. Ways to go

Try looking into why IN rejected the N-LCA. It is primarily due to N-LCA being single engined and it's range to undertake naval missions which require longer endurance and range. IN's mainstay fighter jet for the coming future will be TEDBF which will incorporate several sub-systems from LCA/MWF. If they didn't have trust on the development agencies of N-LCA i.e., DRDO & HAL...IN would've already gone for F-18 or the likes

Most major navies infact prefer a twin engine fighter jet to undertake naval missions and for carrier ops

Take a look at Chinese PLAN...they use Su-30, J-15, J-11, JH-7, H-6 primarily all being twin engined. Infact, J-15 will be the primary fighter jet for PLAN's Type-001 & 002

The USN has 530+ twin engined F-18s with an additional 96 on order despite ordering the F-35Cs

 

[Zapper]

This is a very old picture btw

It is I believe from 2017/18...last year HAL displayed a Tejas at Aero India 2021 which has been fitted with Uttam AESA

(look closely at the blue display board in front)

https://ifenewsnetwork.com/uttam-aesa-radar-fitted-tejas-fighter-jet-spotted-in-aero-india-2021/

This is from 2019

Uttam AESA Family

 

[Yasar_TR]

I think @Brokengineer has made a valid point and put the full stop on this discussion with his post #2550 before this thread becomes an arena for a pissing contest between Tejas and Hurjet.
Both nations are proud of what they have achieved with the two planes in question so far.
Best thing to do is to wait and let Malaysia decide. Because whatever we say here will mean very little.

 

[Zapper]

A basic overview of the 3 jets
​

Spec​	Hurjet​	Tejas​	T-50​
Crew​	1​	1 & 2​	2​
Length​	13m​	13.2m​	13.14m​
Wingspan​	9.8m​	8.2m​	9.45m​
Height​	4.2m​	4.4m​	4.9m​
Wing Area​	24 sq.m​	38.4 sq.m​	23.7 sq.m​
Engine​	F-404-GE-102 (79 kN)​	F404-GE-IN20 afterburning turbofan with FADEC, 85 kN​	F404afterburningturbofan engine 53.07 kN thrust dry, 78.7 kN with afterburner​
Max Speed​	Mach 1.4​	Mach 1.6​	Mach 1.5​
Range​	1381 mi​	1150mi​	1150mi​
Service Ceiling​	45k ft​	52.5k ft​	48k ft​
g limits​	+8/-3 g​	+9/-3.5 g​	+8/-3 g​
Hardpoints​	7​	8​	7​

It is being developed by a company that has much bigger TFX fighter development work going on. Experiences from TFX development will effect the quality of the Hürjet. It is also supposed to have a navy variant which the Korean plane does not.

The maker company TAI has many more development underway that has the potential to offer helicopters and air superiority fighters. So the potential of cooperation is beyond the trainer tender alone

The makers of Tejas and T-50 also have an expansive list of offerings

 

[Zafer]

A basic overview of the 3 jets
​

Spec​	Hurjet​	Tejas​	T-50​
Crew​	1​	1 & 2​	2​
Length​	13m​	13.2m​	13.14m​
Wingspan​	9.8m​	8.2m​	9.45m​
Height​	4.2m​	4.4m​	4.9m​
Wing Area​	24 sq.m​	38.4 sq.m​	23.7 sq.m​
Engine​	F-404-GE-102 (79 kN)​	F404-GE-IN20 afterburning turbofan with FADEC, 85 kN​	F404afterburningturbofan engine 53.07 kN thrust dry, 78.7 kN with afterburner​
Max Speed​	Mach 1.4​	Mach 1.6​	Mach 1.5​
Range​	1381 mi​	1150mi​	1150mi​
Service Ceiling​	45k ft​	52.5k ft​	48k ft​
g limits​	+8/-3 g​	+9/-3.5 g​	+8/-3 g​
Hardpoints​	7​	8​	7​

​

The makers of Tejas and T-50 also have an expansive list of offerings

You don't have the latest on Hürjet.
Length: 13.6m
Wingspan: 9,5m
Wing area: 35m²

 

[Yasar_TR]

You don't have the latest on Hürjet.
wingspan 9,6m
Wing area 35m²

By enlarging the wing area extensively they have introduced a lot of extra lift to Hurjet‘s new design. I guess to compensate for the negative effects this would have, and to improve the manoeuvrability of the plane, they have shortened the wing span as much as they could.
This means that this new Hurjet will have a much shorter take off distance.
How much of it’s overall performance will be effected we’ll have to wait and see when the actual aircraft is revealed in a few months.
Nevertheless with new design input from Akaer of Brazil the Hurjet is evolving in to a capable dual purpose plane.
As per @Nilgiri ’s comments, in another thread where he makes a point that Tusas’s willingness to open gates to TOT for building significant part of the plane in Malaysia can be a swaying point for the Turkish bid.

 

[Nutuk]

We can't dismiss Tejas and T-50 which are our biggest contenders.

Hurjet is indeed a bit in disadvantage as it is still in development. But Hurjet has on the other side also the advantage to offer inclusion of Malaysia into the TFx project. Korea has the KFx project.

Does India have a 5th gen. Project? I am not aware of an Indian 5th gen project.

Anyway it will be Malaysia in the end who is chosing the best option for her interests. Good luck to all

 

[Ardabas34]

A basic overview of the 3 jets
​

Spec​	Hurjet​	Tejas​	T-50​
Crew​	1​	1 & 2​	2​
Length​	13m​	13.2m​	13.14m​
Wingspan​	9.8m​	8.2m​	9.45m​
Height​	4.2m​	4.4m​	4.9m​
Wing Area​	24 sq.m​	38.4 sq.m​	23.7 sq.m​
Engine​	F-404-GE-102 (79 kN)​	F404-GE-IN20 afterburning turbofan with FADEC, 85 kN​	F404afterburningturbofan engine 53.07 kN thrust dry, 78.7 kN with afterburner​
Max Speed​	Mach 1.4​	Mach 1.6​	Mach 1.5​
Range​	1381 mi​	1150mi​	1150mi​
Service Ceiling​	45k ft​	52.5k ft​	48k ft​
g limits​	+8/-3 g​	+9/-3.5 g​	+8/-3 g​
Hardpoints​	7​	8​	7​

The makers of Tejas and T-50 also have an expansive list of offerings

HÜRJET - TUSAS

HÜRJET

www.tusas.com

In 3d model here there are two cockpits.

 

[Zapper]

Another important aspect to be considered in this deal is Malaysia wants palm oil countertrade commitment and might make significant payments using palm oil

"The technical features notwithstanding, what will tip the scale is the LCA that offers competitive features with cost-effective design and performance, and a total comprehensive package which the successful supplier is able to offer. This must include the best value palm oil countertrade commitment."

https://www.thesundaily.my/home/tec...er-critical-to-nation-s-air-defence-YL8683010

When it comes to palm oil imports, India is second to none and when it comes to Malaysian exports which is the second largest palm oil exporter, India is it's biggest consumer accounting for twice that of China

https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/mys/all/31511/2019/

 

[Zapper]

Does India have a 5th gen. Project? I am not aware of an Indian 5th gen project.

India does have a 5th gen project termed AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft)

https://defencehub.live/threads/amca-program.413/

Additional, India can also offer the MWF (LCA Tejas Mk-2) which is a more capable enlarged version of the current version. It's current status is metal cutting for initial prototypes has started. For naval needs, we also have the TEDBF project which will be the mainstay for IN's fleet and will operate from both our carriers

 

[Yasar_TR]

Another important aspect to be considered in this deal is Malaysia wants palm oil countertrade commitment and might make significant payments using palm oil

"The technical features notwithstanding, what will tip the scale is the LCA that offers competitive features with cost-effective design and performance, and a total comprehensive package which the successful supplier is able to offer. This must include the best value palm oil countertrade commitment."

https://www.thesundaily.my/home/tec...er-critical-to-nation-s-air-defence-YL8683010

When it comes to palm oil imports, India is second to none and when it comes to Malaysian exports which is the second largest palm oil exporter, India is it's biggest consumer accounting for twice that of China

View attachment 38652


View attachment 38653

https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/mys/all/31511/2019/

So difficult decisions to make for the Malaysians!
Something will sway them in the end.

 

[Zafer]

Turkey is getting a healthy dose of palm oil.
Palm oil is so healthy, have palm oil, live long.
Long live palm oil!

 

[Nutuk]

India does have a 5th gen project termed AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft)

https://defencehub.live/threads/amca-program.413/

Additional, India can also offer the MWF (LCA Tejas Mk-2) which is a more capable enlarged version of the current version. It's current status is metal cutting for initial prototypes has started. For naval needs, we also have the TEDBF project which will be the mainstay for IN's fleet and will operate from both our carriers

Thanks for the info, interesting.

So AMCA started prototyping alread in october 2021 but will have rollout in 2023? In that respect the aim of TFx is faster, rollout is expected in March 2023 while prototype assembly has yet to start. Parts productions are ongoing though.

 

[Indos]

Malaysian has decided not to prolong the life of their Hawk squadron and will use this LCA tender as a way to replace their Hawk squadron gradually.

In the mean time they also want to buy 18 second hand Hornet from Kuwait, but so far the discussion is still a domestic one, not yet talking to Kuwait government.

IMO :


If they chose T50 Golden Eagle it means they are considering KF 21 program as their future MRCA

if they chose Hurjet it means they want to develop their Aerospace industry beyond part manufacturing focus company

if they chose Tejas it means they have to give up that cozy relationship with Pakistan that started during Mahathir period and it will have something to do with barter trade with palm oil

 

[Zapper]

if they chose Tejas it means they have to give up that cozy relationship with Pakistan that started during Mahathir period and it will have something to do with barter trade with palm oil

They've sort of already given up cozying with pak after we threatened to reduce the palm oil trade. Matter of fact, we reduced it for a brief period and went to Indonesia instead who was more than willing to fulfill our requirements which is when Malaysian ministers and palm oil lobby requested GoI not to disrupt the trade after which there were no comments on kashmir ever since

 

[Zapper]

Thanks for the info, interesting.

So AMCA started prototyping alread in october 2021 but will have rollout in 2023? In that respect the aim of TFx is faster, rollout is expected in March 2023 while prototype assembly has yet to start. Parts productions are ongoing though.

I believe AMCA's prototyping has been delayed a bit due to the pandemic but parts production has been started for the prototypes. Unlike our other two programs (MWF & TEDBF) which incorporate a lot of technologies from the LCA project, AMCA uses a whole range of newer more advanced tech. Sensor fusion, stealth design/coatings and creating an interoperatability environment by effective communication/utilization of various weapons platforms which I feel will take quite a bit of time