TR Marine Mavi Vatan (Blue Homeland)

[Ryder]

https://x.com/mavivatannet/status/1778807542421868784?s=46&t=KSR-K8CmVEoz-tYVRaAoCg

“Insolent Video from India

Imaginary animation of India... In the animation shared by India; Greece fires a BrahMos supersonic guided cruise missile at a Turkish Navy frigate cruising in the Mediterranean.

Prepared imaginary video; He claims that Turkey poses a threat in Greek waters with its Blue Homeland policy and that Greece will have a say in the region with the addition of the BrahMos missile to its inventory.”

Atmacas for Pakistan.

Also try bait China into clashing with India.

Lots of cards can be pulled in the geopolitical arena.

 

[BaburKhan]

It seems really funny that countries that cannot reach the Mediterranean on their own in real life threaten Türkiye with animations or consider selling missiles to Greece.

When Greece signed a defense agreement with France, it threatened by saying "we have partners with nuclear weapons". While even nuclear-armed countries avoid such open threats, the reason for Greece's threat was simply that it was looking for shelter.

We are experiencing the same thing again today. He is implicitly threatening us by signing a defense agreement with a country that has nuclear power.

It doesn't matter if Erdoğan leaves today or someone else comes tomorrow, BLUE HOMELAND will remain an unchangeable reality of Türkiye.

I admire the imagination of Indians, because they started making fighter jets in 1980 and put them into service in 2015, saying "we made one of the best planes". They buy most of their products from Russia by transferring technology or copying products. Additionally, the quality of Indian products is also open to debate.

I want to say that the doctrine of the blue homeland will not change, that India is trying to reach the Caucasus and the Eastern Mediterranean and will not succeed.

It is more believable for Indians to make animations and tweet "We sell weapons to the world, we are very powerful."

In several Posts I mentioned the Threat from the mutual Defence Agreement between Greece and France. A french Intervention will change dramaticly the BOP between Greece and Turkey. Imagine alone arround 30 Rafale F3 on Board of the Aircraft Carrier and Add the Air Defence and ASW Capabillities of the Escort and not to forget Scalp Naval LACM. For the Range of Scalp Naval I found no exact Informationen, but we can expect similar like Tomahawk LACM. This will likely pose a serious Threat for the Airbases in eastern Anatolia. The Air Defence Capabillities of the CSG could also deny TurAF Air Superiority over the eastern Mediterran and Cyprus. Imagine also another 30 - 40 Land based Mirage 2000-5 Squadron/Rafale Fighter Aircraft beside the Carrier based.

To counter this Threat from the CSG we have Tayfun with ASBM Capabillity. Still we have only electro-optical Space based spy Assests. To track the Carrier exact Position, independent from Day or Night and Weather we need SAR Satelittes and also High Altitude ISR UAV with SAR POD, like WZ-7 Soaring Dragon UAV.

Beside Tayfun, Cenk, Atmaca and Çakir, I would add a Ramjet powered AShM for high Valua Sea Targets and ballistic Missiles with an HGV like DF-17.

It is neccasarry to built up the Presence in Libya in order to prevent the CSG from entering the eastern Mediterran. The Libyan Allies need modern Air Defence like Korkut, Hisar-A + & O + and modern Stealth FAC and Barbaros Coastal Defence Complex.

Beside the Gökhan BVR Missile it's neccasarry to Supplement with a longer-range Variant for the use against high Value Air Targets like AWACS, Tanker and MPA. This Missiles should be comparable to PL-17 and integrated in Kaan.

A2/AD is more important than to have an Aircraft Carrier !

French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/296602333_France_orders_first_batch_of_MBDA_Scalp_Naval_cruise_missiles

French naval cruise missile enters service | Mer et Marine

The French Navy now has at its disposal a new sea-based deep-strike capability. The first MdCN naval cruise missiles quietly entered service in February as p...

www.meretmarine.com

China Unveils Naval Variant of WZ-7 Recon Drone - Naval News

New images show the naval version of the Guizhou WZ-7 “Soaring Dragon” High Altitude Long Endurance (HALE) drone, operated by China's PLANAF.

www.navalnews.com

China Is Showing Off Its Oversized Air-to-Air Missile

You have to do something to impress—or intimidate—your rivals.

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[Sanchez]

It doesn't matter if Erdoğan leaves today or someone else comes tomorrow, BLUE HOMELAND will remain an unchangeable reality of Türkiye.

“Blue Homeland” already is changed and Turkey no longer follows with the moves and actions of 2020-2022. You’ll see that all the proponents of the doctrine also no longer get promoted by gov affiliated channels.

 

[BaburKhan]

“Blue Homeland” already is changed and Turkey no longer follows with the moves and actions of 2020-2022. You’ll see that all the proponents of the doctrine also no longer get promoted by gov affiliated channels.

Is it the lack of Resources ?

 

[uçuyorum]

Is it the lack of Resources ?

Do you consider competence a resource?

 

[Sanchez]

Is it the lack of Resources ?

After 2020-2022, Greece now have a treaty alliance with France. During the crisis, Saudis and Emiratis forward deployed their fighters in Greece in support. Our Libya campaign was stalled in Sirte and we had to accept a ceasefire. Since 2022, Turkey is trying to correct the mistakes it did since 2013. Greece is getting best equipment on the market while we are trying to move around budget constraints and delays. None of our most important aerospace and naval projects will move forward without American, Spanish and Italian help, and all of them are also allied with Greece. Their economy is improving while ours is still in the gutter and we cannot contemplate undertaking such an action in a time when we are getting restructuring deals from all over the west. That’s what Simsek is doing. We will play nice with Greece for years to come.

 

[BaburKhan]

After 2020-2022, Greece now have a treaty alliance with France. During the crisis, Saudis and Emiratis forward deployed their fighters in Greece in support. Our Libya campaign was stalled in Sirte and we had to accept a ceasefire. Since 2022, Turkey is trying to correct the mistakes it did since 2013. Greece is getting best equipment on the market while we are trying to move around budget constraints and delays. None of our most important aerospace and naval projects will move forward without American, Spanish and Italian help, and all of them are also allied with Greece. Their economy is improving while ours is still in the gutter and we cannot contemplate undertaking such an action in a time when we are getting restructuring deals from all over the west. That’s what Simsek is doing. We will play nice with Greece for years to come.

I mentioned in several Posts the Alliance between Greece and France is a big Threat for Turkey. Let alone one CSG + arround another 40 land based Rafale, we will have big Problems to hold Air Superiority in any case of War.

We need an A2/AD Strategy like China have.

It's true we faced several Delays, at first I Class was planned with MK-41, the US Sanctioned it and we developed our own VLS MIDLAS. Our Way is not so easy to go and we are at the brink to become an important Player in the Region. The West is working against it and will make the Life for us hard in all Ways to undermine our Efforts.

Ok Greece Economy is improving, but all is built on high Debt, for all their modern Equipment the Money for purchase, Training, Upgrades go to foreign Countries.

Edit: They have their Rafale with AESA Radar + Meteor BVR Missiles. We get the first Özgür upgradet F-16 and AESA Integration is in Progress. In 2026 Gökhan BVR will enter LRIP.

 

[Sanchez]

Ok Greece Economy is improving, but all is built on high Debt, for all their modern Equipment the Money for purchase, Training, Upgrades go to foreign Countries.

Edit: They have their Rafale with AESA Radar + Meteor BVR Missiles. We get the first Özgür upgradet F-16 and AESA Integration is in Progress. In 2026 Gökhan BVR will enter LRIP.

You fight with the weapons you have, not the weapons you will have in 5 years. And it doesn’t matter how you received your weapons, they are lethal whether you built them yourself or got them through a deal with the devil.

they have their Meteor equipped Rafales today, while we will have 25 Gökdoğans and starting from 2025. Per Tübitak these 25 missiles will only be available for Özgür modded block 30 F-16s. Özgür Mod 2 and Aesa radar is years away.

We won’t be able to force Greece’s hand due to our finances but we will need every edge we can have against a possible Greek construed crisis. We are on the defense.

 

[BaburKhan]

You fight with the weapons you have, not the weapons you will have in 5 years. And it doesn’t matter how you received your weapons, they are lethal whether you built them yourself or got them through a deal with the devil.

they have their Meteor equipped Rafales today, while we will have 25 Gökdoğans and starting from 2025. Per Tübitak these 25 missiles will only be available for Özgür modded block 30 F-16s. Özgür Mod 2 and Aesa radar is years away.

We won’t be able to force Greece’s hand due to our finances but we will need every edge we can have against a possible Greek construed crisis. We are on the defense.

What is the Solution? For advanced Weaponary we will rely on the West, for example EF-2000 T4 + Meteor BVR Missile. For Engines we need for Kaan we also rely on US.

 

[Zafer]

2 years is all we need to make our unmanned fighters independently, I would even go as far as to say why so late, make it a year and a half

 

[Nutuk]

You guys over rate the air force. Look at Russia - Ukraine, if it was air force alone Russia should have chewed Ukraine. US should have chewed Vietnam and Afghanistan.

And we are talking about the air force of Greece, a fart compared to Russia and USA.

We will have not much trouble from Greece in an all out war, those 30-40 rafales will not make a decisive difference


We should stay far away from EF2000, it would only keep us longer dependent. Bank on drones, Hurjet and Kaan, that is our future. Foreign fighter jets will only be a block and will not strengthen our air force.

 

[uçuyorum]

You guys over rate the air force. Look at Russia - Ukraine, if it was air force alone Russia should have chewed Ukraine. US should have chewed Vietnam and Afghanistan.

And we are talking about the air force of Greece, a fart compared to Russia and USA.

We will have not much trouble from Greece in an all out war, those 30-40 rafales will not make a decisive difference


We should stay far away from EF2000, it would only keep us longer dependent. Bank on drones, Hurjet and Kaan, that is our future. Foreign fighter jets will only be a block and will not strengthen our air force.

Apparently Air Force really sees Typhoon as a serious requirement.

 

[BaburKhan]

Even if we get Typhoon T4, we will get it not before 2027. If all is going good first Block of Kaan should enter 2028 in Service.

 

[Sanchez]

What is the Solution? For advanced Weaponary we will rely on the West, for example EF-2000 T4 + Meteor BVR Missile. For Engines we need for Kaan we also rely on US.

Bide our time, be nice with EU, stall Greek efforts.

You guys over rate the air force. Look at Russia - Ukraine, if it was air force alone Russia should have chewed Ukraine. US should have chewed Vietnam and Afghanistan.

And we are talking about the air force of Greece, a fart compared to Russia and USA.

We will have not much trouble from Greece in an all out war, those 30-40 rafales will not make a decisive difference


We should stay far away from EF2000, it would only keep us longer dependent. Bank on drones, Hurjet and Kaan, that is our future. Foreign fighter jets will only be a block and will not strengthen our air force.

Russia doesn’t have air superiority over Ukraine. Both sides have extensive AA and shit aircraft.

A possible Turkish Greek war won’t be a counter insurgency war like Vietnam or Afghanistan but a peer to peer conflict.

And more than likely we won’t have all out war. It will be a small skirmish over Aegean at sea and in the air and it will be forced to end before land forces are committed over Thrace. This danger is apparent and will be over us for years to come. 2 squadrons of hard hitting and high flying Rafales give them a big edge over our F-16s, not even adding F-35s.

Foreign jets are the mainstay of our air force and will stay as such until at least 2037-2040. Akıncı made its first flight in 2019. We have less than 20 in service. Noone’s building a drone fighter fleet in 2 years.

 

[Zafer]

Akıncı is not a jet fighter, we can not use it against near peers and we need it in small numbers in our counter terrorism efforts. Also Akıncı will only reach its true potential when it gets its radars, its powerful engines and all of its possible weapons. Until that time we will keep numbers small and provide them to foreign operators who need them more than we do. On the other hand drones powered by TF6000 and TF10000 will be formidable fighters with no existing peers. We can start counting down today to this end and we won't be bored counting.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

You guys over rate the air force. Look at Russia - Ukraine, if it was air force alone Russia should have chewed Ukraine. US should have chewed Vietnam and Afghanistan.

And we are talking about the air force of Greece, a fart compared to Russia and USA.

We will have not much trouble from Greece in an all out war, those 30-40 rafales will not make a decisive difference


We should stay far away from EF2000, it would only keep us longer dependent. Bank on drones, Hurjet and Kaan, that is our future. Foreign fighter jets will only be a block and will not strengthen our air force.

Kızılelma and Anka 3 can be our stop gaps until Kaan is ready. We don't need more 4th generation jets.

On a side note, after looking at the war in Ukraine, we should heavily invest in our anti-radiation missiles/drones. Gaining air superiority quickly is of the utmost importance.

SEAD/DEAD should be our priority. Once our opponent's air defences are gone, they will be sitting ducks just like Armenia.

We'll need a combination of:

Stealth drones and fighters

• Kaan
• Anka 3
• Kızılelma

Anti-radiation

• Kargı
• Akbaba

Cruise Missiles (for targeting predefined SAM sites)

• Çakır
• SOM
• Atmaca

Electronic Warfare

• JEMSAH
• Çakır EW
• Super Şimşek

Decoy

• Şimşek
• Super şimşek

After a quick campaign to wipe out air defences, TB2s, Akincis, Ankas and Aksungurs can wade in to clean up all remaining ground targets.

 

[BaburKhan]

Kızılelma and Anka 3 can be our stop gaps until Kaan is ready. We don't need more 4th generation jets.

On a side note, after looking at the war in Ukraine, we should heavily invest in our anti-radiation missiles/drones. Gaining air superiority quickly is of the utmost importance.

SEAD/DEAD should be our priority. Once our opponent's air defences are gone, they will be sitting ducks just like Armenia.

We'll need a combination of:

Stealth drones and fighters

• Kaan
• Anka 3
• Kızılelma

Anti-radiation

• 
  [B
• Kargı
• Akbaba[/b]

Cruise Missiles (for targeting predefined SAM sites)

• Çakır
• SOM
• Atmaca

Electronic Warfare

• JEMSAH
• Çakır EW
• Super Şimşek

Decoy

• Şimşek
• Super şimşek

After a quick campaign to wipe out air defences, TB2s, Akincis, Ankas and Aksungurs can wade in to clean up all remaining ground targets.

About Kargi and Akaba I heard nealy nothing, Kargi was shown in an manouver 2022. It's not confirmed to entered TAF Inventory.

 

[Saithan]

We need more Satellites and loitering ammunition of various ranges as well. We also need to develop modern methods of delivering clusterbombs.

Any tusle between Turkey and Greece will result in fast interference of Allied nations and they'll only do so if it goes bad for Greece.

 

[Afif]

A competent AD network would shoot down extremely slow flying loitering ammunitions as well as subsonic cruise missiles efficiently. Yes, even the stealthy ones. Today's AESA radars are too sensitive to miss them when they appears over the horizon. And modern AD C2 nodes are incredibly fast, automated, and connected to agile Interceptors ready to launch on seconds notice. Also, low cost sustainable solutions against cheap long range loitering ammunition are increasingly becoming available. I.e. radar guided AAA guns, low cost lasers, etc.

People need to let go of this obsession with loitering ammunition as a solution to all context. Yes they are great for localized tactical fight in the land domain, But they aren't gonna have the same effect in a long range air and naval battle that is likely to be fought over the Agean.


I think the right approach is first to understand the TurAF's strategic and operational logic behind the specific procurement push. Once we understand in depth how they are planning to fight the next war, it becomes easier to analize why they are buying what they are buying. And why they are emphasizing on X instead of Y. Otherwise, Just making a long list and saying TurAF needs this and this with this amount and this amount is not very fruitful in the end. Because it is pretty much the case that we often miss the integrated bigger picture that is present in the military decision makers' minds, as well as lots of smalls things that's when put together makes a different picture than that of what we have imagined primarily. Yet we wouldn't notice those small things unless we are specifically pointed to.

 

[Sanchez]

A component AD network would shoot down extremely slow flying loitering ammunitions as well as subsonic cruise missiles efficiently. Yes, even the stealthy ones. Today's AESA radars are too sensitive to miss them when they appears over the horizon. And modern AD C2 nodes are incredibly fast, automated, and connected to agile Interceptors ready to launch on seconds notice. Also, low cost sustainable solutions against cheap long range loitering ammunition are increasingly becoming available. I.e. radar guided AAA guns, low cost lasers, etc.

People need to let go of this obsession with loitering ammunition as a solution to all context. Yes they are great for localized tactical fight in the land domain, But they aren't gonna have the same effect in a long range air and naval battle that is likely to be fought over the Agean.


I think the right approach is first to understand the TurAF's strategic and operational logic behind the specific procurement push. Once we understand in depth how they are planning to fight the next war, it becomes easier to analize why they are buying what they are buying. And why they are emphasizing on X instead of Y. Otherwise, Just making a long list and saying TurAF needs this and this with this amount and this amount is not very fruitful in the end.

Common fallacy in our circles. Weapons systems don’t win wars. Doctrines, training, CONOPS and logistics do. There’s also nothing preventing from what happened over Israel last week occurring again over Aegean where multiple countries shoot down our ballistic missiles and drones in air. US did shoot down our drone over Syria.