Pakistan Historical Military History of Pakistan

Saiyan0321

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1971, with regard to the western border; the events of the east have been covered again and again. I am aware of two of the incidents, the two I mentioned.

One, down where 18th Div made its abortive bid to reach Jaisalmer, as a spoiling attack to put Khambatta, who was planning a thrust towards the north-south corridor, off his stride. Some people have suggested that, after all, 18th Div did manage to put the fear of God into Khambatta, so its own retreat didn't matter.

Two, the Chhamb Jaurian engagement.

Wait you didnt hear about the operations in the Phulkian Sector aka the Akhnur Dagger capture and the shakargarh salient?
India captured the "Chicken Neck" as the Chhamb sector started to fall apart..

""Armour available to 10 Division was not properly employed. The inherent flexibility and mobility of armour enables it to switch roles at short notice. Neither the Divisional Commander nor his Armour Advisor appreciated this characteristic of armour. On the first day only two Squadrons out of seven available were employed. One Squadron was left unemployed throughout the war because it was earmarked for the defence of Akhnur Bridge/town which the remotest threat disappeared after our attack on ÔchickensÕ neckÕ. The second armoured regiment was not inducted even after the enemyÕs intention became quite clear. When employed its Squadrons were brought in one by one merely to make up losses suffered by the Deccan Horse. The 10 DivisionÕs appreciation of the armour threat from Pakistan and the consequent employment of the Deccan Horse was faulty. Pakistan had used the northern approach in 1965. What justification could be there six years later to ignore this approach and to allot no armour for its defence? It is said that the commanders concerned did not want to employ armour earmarked for the offensive for defensive purposes. But this is not a valid justification because the flexibility of armour enables it to switch roles at short notice; in any case it would appear that there were adequate resources available centainly in armour after 10 December to regain lost territory but no attempt was made: (Refers-History of the Indian Armoured Corps-earlier quoted-page 489)"""

Capture of the dagger is mentioned in other sources as well such as Honour and glory by jagjit singh

and as for Shakargarh salient well we have Agha Amin with his battle of baripand and we have gen hanut singh in his fakhr e hind, story of poona horse although Colonel Ranjit Sengupta, Sukhwant and K.C Praval were not happy about the performance in the engvagement. Naseerullah babar was also not pleased with our performance and highlighted an overly defensive mindset which is also why the 111 wasnt able to capitalize on the gains of the 23 brigade but that is for later. colonel S.G mehdi also laments the failures at Shakargarh. No side was truly happy with their respective performance.


Basically india planned a major offensive in the shakargarh bulge and the indian 1st corp was to push into the salient from the north and east with the purpose of protecting the vulnerable areas of Indian territory, engage and tie down the mechanized forces and capture large amounts of territory. Pakistan’s I Corps, charged with the defense of the Shakargarh bulge, had 15 Division on the left around Sialkot, 8 Division on the right east of the Degh Nadi, and 8 Armored Brigade in support of both forward divisions. On 5th December India launched its attack but immediately struggled with two major issues. The first was that there was a severe lack of coordination and the events unfolding on the north side were not helping. There was an overly cautious approach taken by the indian commanders and it impeded the process to such length that the most successful indian division, the 54th, fought for two weeks to secure barely 8 miles of territory. These two weeks were spent on going around minefiels and engaging covering troops. when they actually reached the forced they were to tie down, their defensive, the war was at its end. On the other when India had reached into the salient and were securing their positions by 15th December, Pakistan started launching "Counter attacks" which were by the independent 8th armoured brigade near jarpal and barapind and they did not succeed because they were ill-planned and cautious attacks that only resulted in unnecessary losses. A fruitless attack was launched on 17th December which only brought nothing but losses. The two day struggle in this engagement saw us lose a good number of tanks. It was quoted "The few counterattacks which the 8th Division tried during the were most noticeable by their lack of planning." In the end India occupied the territory but failed to penetrate the defensive, dislodge the enemy and capture large swathes of land because of overly cautious commanders, which didnt press on the other hand the Pakistani reserves were present and could have assisted those probing assaults that only caused losses but they remained in the back while 6 Armored Division waited for orders near Pasrur, 17 Division found itself reduced to little more than a lone maneuver brigade as major detachments were sent off to 23 Division on the left and IV Corps on the right. It was quite clear that the Pakistani commanders brought a new meaning to being overly cautious especially not only did they lack the initiative to immediately attack when the Indian forces were in disarray due to lack of communications and mining issues but they also resorted to probing "Counter attack" rather than using the main forces in a combined assault.
 

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Second, there was perfect coordination between the Army and the Air Force, a coordination rarely seen earlier. Both P. C. Lal and Manekshaw were straightforward, practical men, Lal a taciturn stickler for rules, Manekshaw very much the flamboyant life and soul of the party. Lal did not make the mistake that Arjan Singh had made in 1965, and most of the IAF inventory was protected; very few aircraft died on the ground.
One solitary sqn of Sabres couldn't do much against 8 or was it 12 IAF sqdns in the Eastern sector but they fought bravely. In the end 12 of the Sabres were made derelict by the PAF before the end.
 

Saiyan0321

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Nobody is ever happy

fazilka sector is prone to alot of stories and tales of What-If. Its a very controversial issue because despite the success, further thrust were unable to be made because 2nd Corp saw alot of their main attack force being diverted and jaisalmar is where you have longewala

south of that are green belt operations
 

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One solitary sqn of Sabres couldn't do much against 8 or was it 12 IAF sqdns in the Eastern sector but they fought bravely. In the end 12 of the Sabres were made derelict by the PAF before the end.
Of course, Sir, no doubt that the PAF was heavily outnumbered, but surely, that is the intention at a strategic level, to ensure that the opposing forces are hugely outnumbered, preferably at least at 3:1 level in the plains, at even 9:1 in the hills.

Nobody denies that the PAF and the PA fought bravely; apart from the battle against 8:1 odds of the PAF, there was Tajammul Hussain Malik's brilliant defence at Hilli.

The point is that all arms and all services fought in coordination. That should not be thought to imply that the other side did not fight bravely.
 

Joe Shearer

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Nobody is ever happy

fazilka sector is prone to alot of stories and tales of What-If. Its a very controversial issue because despite the success, further thrust were unable to be made because 2nd Corp saw alot of their main attack force being diverted and jaisalmar is where you have longewala

south of that are green belt operations
What these posts lack - not your fault, just saying in general - is maps, lots and lots of maps.

For instance, in talking of 65, Major Amin mentions that the Indian Army thought that the main attack would come at Jhangar, and it did not sufficiently reinforce Chhamb.

The problem is that there are half-a-dozen Jhangars within a hundred miles.
 

Saiyan0321

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by the way the Akhnur Dagger was returned because it was not along the LOC. Only territories along the LOC were to be kept as occupied Like india got Turtuk and Kargil areas whereas we got Chhamb which is fair enough but the rest were to be given back so we got the Shakargarh salient back and the Dagger. Thank God otherwise it would have been bad. India would have been at the neck of Shakargarh inner and they had access to narowal shakargarh road if i am not wrong which would have meant that nurkot could be easily challenged and with the fall of the dagger our major headwork would have been in danger. Say whatever you want, Bhutto got a good deal. That Kiss story has to be true :p
 

Saiyan0321

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What these posts lack - not your fault, just saying in general - is maps, lots and lots of maps.

For instance, in talking of 65, Major Amin mentions that the Indian Army thought that the main attack would come at Jhangar, and it did not sufficiently reinforce Chhamb.

The problem is that there are half-a-dozen Jhangars within a hundred miles.

Well ofcourse if you have access to maps, then its all good. Its actually easy as well to understand.

I have some of captured territory but nothing too detailed like you know those war encyclopedia are. The Chhamb book has alot of maps but it is solely for chhamb.
 

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@Saiyan0321 I was wondering if there are reading materials that you can suggest on East Bengal Regiment's role in 1965. (There is not much in Bangla, at least not that I know of)
 

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I think India in the south captured Chad Bet as well. At that time, they were small island points and indian paracommandos had captured it. I think we got that back as well.
 

Saiyan0321

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@Saiyan0321 I was wondering if there are reading materials that you can suggest on East Bengal Regiment's role in 1965. (There is not much in Bangla, at least not that I know of)
Hmm TBH there is no major source. Tell you what. I will write down everything East bengal regiment did in the war and post it here. Just give me some time. :D
 

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Hmm TBH there is no major source. Tell you what. I will write down everything East bengal regiment did in the war and post it here. Just give me some time. :D

Thank you very much. Will wait for it.
 

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Well ofcourse if you have access to maps, then its all good. Its actually easy as well to understand.

I have some of captured territory but nothing too detailed like you know those war encyclopedia are. The Chhamb book has alot of maps but it is solely for chhamb.
Without disturbing the flow, I think I'll try making maps to accompany these posts
I think India in the south captured Chad Bet as well. At that time, they were small island points and indian paracommandos had captured it. I think we got that back as well.
Yes, there was no coherent plan of action for the south, the amphibious sector, from the other northern side of the Gulf of Kutch. As you know, Sir Creek, the northern boundary demarcating the Indo-Pakistan border, is an object of dispute between the two countries.
 

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Of course, Sir, no doubt that the PAF was heavily outnumbered, but surely, that is the intention at a strategic level, to ensure that the opposing forces are hugely outnumbered, preferably at least at 3:1 level in the plains, at even 9:1 in the hills.

Nobody denies that the PAF and the PA fought bravely; apart from the battle against 8:1 odds of the PAF, there was Tajammul Hussain Malik's brilliant defence at Hilli.

The point is that all arms and all services fought in coordination. That should not be thought to imply that the other side did not fight bravely.
That was certainly not my intention.
 

Joe Shearer

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That was certainly not my intention.
Just making sure that you should not misunderstand our tone and tenor, Sir.
Whatever is said is said with great respect for the fighting capabilities, the courage of the Pakistani soldier, sailor and airman.
 

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an excerpt from the works of Agha Amin. A fascinating read one most will not like. @Joe Shearer @Kaptaan @Nilgiri @Yankeestani @VCheng
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, praised by his enemies, i.e. the
British, in the British Official History of WW One, as one of
the greatest military commanders in world’s history was a
great consumer of alcohol and chronic womaniser! It has
been alleged that Kemal was a homosexual (a typically
Turkish pastime) too and frequently suffered the ravages
of venereal disease!
That's pretty funny. Hearing from a Pakistani about the qualities of our leader that we never knew...:ROFLMAO:🤮

I've never heard such allegations even in Turkiye until my age. OK, he's a drinker, but it's not even something to talk about.:cautious:

I wonder where you read this. Where is the source of this?😤😡
 

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Hmm TBH there is no major source. Tell you what. I will write down everything East bengal regiment did in the war and post it here. Just give me some time. :D

I mentioned both you and Joe earlier in this forum number of times to Afif....when I felt points needed expanding and you two really are some of the best to do it I know.

He will now see much fruit for his patience in waiting for you guys to re-appear and re-establish nicely here again :)
 

Joe Shearer

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I mentioned both you and Joe earlier in this forum number of times to Afif....when I felt points needed expanding and you two really are some of the best to do it I know.

He will now see much fruit for his patience in waiting for you guys to re-appear and re-establish nicely here again :)
I'm glad you did, and I'm glad @Afif is here. He asks sharp questions and makes good points, and I'm looking forward to conversing with him. Only please remind him to be kind to the aged; I may not be able to keep up his scorching pace!
 
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