TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Philip the Arab]

Roketsan has Laçin datalink for this, it could be repurposed for UAVs. But a RF datalink also has drawbacks, UAV will become easier to detect. Nevertheless it’s also a good option.

Yes, it has drawbacks but in theory Akinci could operate 200-300 km away and just give guidance while loitering. SOM is of course the better option, but I was under the impression you could make the system at a much cheaper cost compared to SOM but I may be wrong.

 

[dustdevil]

Yes, it has drawbacks but in theory Akinci could operate 200-300 km away and just give guidance while loitering. SOM is of course the better option, but I was under the impression you could make the system at a much cheaper cost compared to SOM but I may be wrong.

True, I had the impression that Laçin datalink had not much range (we operated Popeyes with a bigger pod) but according to this document it’s about 150 km:

https://www.roketsan.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/ENG-2020.pdf

(page 78)

Pair this with a wing kit for an iron bomb or cheap munition with sensors like Kuzgun than it is another important killer capability...

 

[Spook]

I think you misunderstood me, I was describing methods to find targets if a certain type of method fails. If weather is bad we can use low flying missiles or spotter drones for target detection. TB2 type UAV, by altitude and SAL method is more vulnerable to weather. And weather is important.

No special love to Spike NLOS either, but I’m interested in fiber optically guided long range or short range missiles. I think they are suited to our needs but for some reason we do not work on them and ignore the technique. Why let Israel dominate this field?

If we wanted to use fiber optic guidance for a missile like OMTAS. I am pretty sure we would have to redesign the whole missile.

 

[dustdevil]

If we wanted to use fiber optic guidance for a missile like OMTAS. I am pretty sure we would have to redesign the whole missile.

I’m sure about it too, the exhaust of the missile should be placed away from the fiber optic cable and spool, that means internal changes on the missile. I know a company whose main duty is to develop missiles.

 

[Combat-Master]

Everyone is developing missiles with R/F, my mans wanna go back in time with tethered missiles.... go tethered if you want a missile that's under 6km in range - otherwise soldiers will mostly be carrying a spool of optical cable rather than the missile itself .

 

[dustdevil]

Everyone is developing missiles with R/F, my mans wanna go back in time with tethered missiles.... go tethered if you want a missile that's under 6km in range - otherwise soldiers will mostly be carrying a spool of optical cable rather than the missile itself .

Yes, spool is super heavy so no need to improve, why bother at all, problem solved by itself. Besides everyone is doing RF so it must be a bulletproof technique, because everyone does it. In the meantime we can jam all Russian SAMs via EW and make our drones invisible but our super RF links are unjammable because EW only works for us.

 

[Siper>MMU]

No one is going to EW your ATGM.

 

[Combat-Master]

Yes, spool is super heavy so no need to improve, why bother at all, problem solved by itself. Besides everyone is doing RF so it must be a bulletproof technique, because everyone does it. In the meantime we can jam all Russian SAMs via EW and make our drones invisible but our super RF links are unjammable because EW only works for us.

Oh schit, he used the E/W master card. Because data-links and radars work in the exact same way? Perhaps they'll send E/W aircraft to jam all ATGMS..

 

[Philip the Arab]

Oh schit, he used the E/W master card. Because data-links and radars work in the exact same way? Perhaps they'll send E/W aircraft to jam all ATGMS..

They will use an EW grenade

 

[dustdevil]

No one is going to EW your ATGM.

Tell Aselsan about it, they will save money by this wisdom.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/UMTAS_Tanksavar_Fuze_RF_Veri_Bagi_2867.pdf

What is this, forum EW experts?

 

[Combat-Master]

Tell Aselsan about it, they will save money by this wisdom.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/UMTAS_Tanksavar_Fuze_RF_Veri_Bagi_2867.pdf

I like how they reduced range from 12km to 10km

 

[Combat-Master]

Tell Aselsan about it, they will save money by this wisdom.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/UMTAS_Tanksavar_Fuze_RF_Veri_Bagi_2867.pdf

View attachment 21572 View attachment 21573
What is this, forum EW experts?

If you want range - which is what you want, you are going to go R/F there's no ifs or buts to it. No one is denying electronic interference can be an issue, and I'm sure Aselsan who has decades of knowledge in this area are fully aware and have hardened their links with various techniques to overcome such issues.

 

[dustdevil]

I like how they reduced range from 12km to 10km

Also note how it says: line of sight. UMTAS feed looks much better than OMTAS and that’s not just the sensor. OMTAS has some analog like drop out or low bitrate, even some Israeli munition footage from AZ has dropouts like these at low altitude. I doubt they have true over the hill guide or beyond the wall capability. Hope to be incorrect though for OMTAS/UMTAS.

 

[Combat-Master]

Also note how it says: line of sight. UMTAS feed looks much better than OMTAS and that’s not just the sensor. OMTAS has some analog like drop out or low bitrate, even some Israeli footage from AZ has dropouts like these at low altitude. I doubt they have true over the hill guide or beyond the wall capability. Hope to be incorrect though.

With the fire and forget capability, the missile is autonomous in flying out to the selected target - so it's not an issue if the link gets severed. The same is true with SPIKE NLOS with R/F data-link.

Take for instance this video of French 5th gen Anti-tank missile

 

[dustdevil]

With the fire and forget capability, the missile is autonomous in flying out to the selected target - so it's not an issue if the link gets severed. The same is true with SPIKE NLOS with R/F data-link.

Take for instance this video of French 5th gen Anti-tank missile

Lock on after launch could be an issue if the target is not detected and targeted on time when the missile is still in line of sight. Also using UMTAS/OMTAS from heavy cover, like behind a building, and trying to pick out targets after launch may not work. Some fiber guidance could helped a bit for this scenario. If RF+line of sight only, operator has to be a bit creative.

Not surprised nobody wants this fiber cables, I’m used to it. Let’s think OMTAS is the perfection of ATGM, ignorance is bliss...

 

[Era_shield]

You can see the effective use of NLOS ATGM in videos posted by the Azerbaijani MoD and personal accounts. It is undisputed fact that both Azerbaijan and Israel used the system and it proved pretty successful against the targets its made for. NLOS ATGM have its use and when air forces couldn't intervene in the desired time and on the desired level it's a perfect scenario for the system to shine. To put everything on your Air Forces is a bad strategy and when the Air Forces stop to become a factor ATGMs are some of the most effective mobile weapon systems that the Land Forces posses. Diversity is a thing and the capability of having NLOS ATGM in our Land forces is a pretty big one for our Armed Forces as a whole.

By the way I don't agree with the classification of the Harpy, Kargu, Alpagu and NLOS ATGM as the same thing. All of these unmanned systems have their mission profiles, different propulsion and cost difference. While from the first three only Harpy posses anti-armor capability all these can loiter in the air and conduct their own surveillance and in the case of Kargu it can be retrieved. Alpagu and Kargu's explosive can't do anything to armored targets other than damage optical devices. NLOS ATGM is a dedicated system for striking all kinds of armor. For example Spike NLOS range goes up to 25km and its speed between 130-180 m/s while Harop's range is 1000km and its speed 115 m/s. Spike NLOS provides low level of observability and low action time for the enemy with the needed damage on low cost. Non of the above listed loitering munitions can match these parameters and the difference of cost between the only anti-armor capable loitering munition from the ones listed above and Spike NLOS is colossal. While a unit of Spike NLOS costs around $210.000 a unit of IAI Harop costs ~$10.000.000 (Indian Air Forces purchased 10 for $100.000.000 in 2009). IAI Harop is not a system to be thrown at every armor formation that comes your way.

There were only a few Spike launches in N-K 2, I can only remember around 6, total is probably around 10. And they were using them to hit targets that cost not much more than the Spike missile itself (old tanks on hilltops, random little bunkers).

The problem with NLOS is that once you launch it, you just spent $200K and you have to find a target. If you don't know where the target is you end up hitting old tanks or useless buildings. But if you know the target is there - you could just use the platform that identified the target to engage it. So it's a system where the actually useful scenarios in a real war are rare.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1397126362968715274

 

[Saithan]

MAM-T Seri Üretimi Başlıyor - C4 Defence

İkinci, Roketsan bünyesinde geliştirilen mühimmat hakkında bilgi verdi. Roketsan Genel Müdürü Murat İkinci, NTV canlı yayınına katıldı.

www.c4defence.com

Serial production of MAM-T by C4defense.

 

[Nilgiri]

True but it is still a lot of money even when you take that into account. Poland bought the whole package and it cost them nearly 10 million for a TB2 and it needs more infrastructure than Harop. Turkiye produces SOM cruise missiles for a million dollars per unit.

Let's say Harop costs 2 million after taking into account the costs you mentioned above (I'm %100 sure that it costs way more than that) it is still a lot for a kamikaze drone. When it comes to drones Israel and the US are robbing people. Israel leased 2 Herons to Greece for 39 million euros for 3 years. If you don't ask for the whole package you can buy 6 TB2s with that amount.

Pricepoint of harop (for its mission profile) vs other platforms like TB2 is whole different subject to get into.

That is simply up for every military (that both available to) to make comparison and determination on....as both these drones are clearly not 1:1 intersection in their profile.

At the time of question for example (2000 - 2010 decade) when India made first harop acquisitions (alongside other Israel UAVs), there is a strategic nature to relationship building up that is not really expressed in the dollar values of deals in the typical print media for example....media that tend to look from outside in (and focus on the shell rather than innards)

i.e we bought and continue to buy them specifically for what is inside them, the EO, electronics, RF, sensoring etc as simply pure ToT cannot be done (especially as relationship is still building), and it is good to have proven reliable references in operation for what we want within our own ecosystem.

It is part of larger LRDE+BEL and IAI-Elta + Rafael cooperation. LRDE, BEL (and private companies allied to it) has since accelerated what is in its own stable for production-deployment in many more technologies that will sustainably integrate into India own UAV ecosystem (and other def-tech ecosystems more generally) moving forward.

A similar thing is now evolving with US too (so we get some pretty ridiculous prices at first glance regarding guardian drones etc, till you dig somewhat deeper past media reports).

Israel predates them about 20 years (US,) in this relationship... in fact israel was the US MIC early checking/scoping you can say for later via Israel. France predates Israel w.r.t this (again by another 20 years), it was arguably original western entity that had its domestic political backing to do this first with India.

Anyway it get off topic. W.r.t this whole thing in case of Tb2, there is also example to look at regarding its EO sensor (Canadian) that faced sanction recently and thus Turkey has to develop+backwork its own. This illustrates the criticality of certain components....and thus why it may not be 1:1 to compare prices depending on how such things are going on in tech flow behind scenes in some of the (especially initial) prices quoted.

 

[Oublious]

If cloud cover is blocking your TB2’s view, why not target with a SAR-GMTI-RADAR like MILSAR asper the one below, of Meteksan.

MILSAR UAV SAR/GMTI Radar | Meteksan Defence | Meteksan

MILSAR UAV SAR/GMTI Radar could be operated on unmanned air vehicles (UAVs), helicopters and fixed wing aircraft along with its easy installation feature to detect and track potential targets either low speed small size or fast moving objects even in adve

www.meteksan.com

Meteksan Defence MILSAR SAR/GMTI Radar Provides Outstanding Capabilities to Tactical UAVs

MILSAR generate radar images up to 30cm resolution from 27km.

www.defenceturkey.com

View attachment 21559

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1396870554565718021

We don't now if it is Aselsans or Meteksan SAR radar...