TR Naval Programs

[Glass🚬]

I always hated this new camo. And I guess they will turn to gray soon

ye, that land forces camo looks bad, they need to repaint them.

 

[Yasar_TR]

What is going to be the interim solution while quadpack capable missile is under development.

Gokdeniz could be replaced with Levent or Gokdeniz-ER
Specialized munitions for MKE 76mm. Fastest solution could be ATOM warhead.
Nazar Lite

Ismail Demir stated that the TCG-Istanbul will be ready to join inventory of TN in 2023.
He also said that the Siper missile will be in use in 2023.
In view of these two specific statements made by Ismail Demir, you will come to the conclusion that, by the time the ship is in use it will have Siper missiles on board. At worst case the first ship may be equipped with Hisar RF.
Since the navy is insistent on quad packed missiles, they may not accept the ship without it. This is understandable as it is not logical to have 16 canisters with single missiles in them, when you can have 64 missiles in the same space, in quad-packed. When the ship is fully in use it will have the quad packed Siper/HisarRF Missiles.
I can’t see this ship with an interim solution. Even though the article states that ”at final stage” the quad-pack capability will be given to the MILDAS, that doesn’t necessarily mean an interim stage. One could read it as at final stage of the delivery the MILDAS will have quad-pack capability.
@Anmdt may enlighten us better here.

 

[LordAragon]

Any info about Cenk-s? When will aselsan unveil it? They need to conduct live fire test using it first right?

 

[Abdelaziz]

Any info about Cenk-s? When will aselsan unveil it? They need to conduct live fire test using it first right?

It's a searching radar not FCR

 

[Anmdt]

Ismail Demir stated that the TCG-Istanbul will be ready to join inventory of TN in 2023.
He also said that the Siper missile will be in use in 2023.
In view of these two specific statements made by Ismail Demir, you will come to the conclusion that, by the time the ship is in use it will have Siper missiles on board. At worst case the first ship may be equipped with Hisar RF.
Since the navy is insistent on quad packed missiles, they may not accept the ship without it. This is understandable as it is not logical to have 16 canisters with single missiles in them, when you can have 64 missiles in the same space, in quad-packed. When the ship is fully in use it will have the quad packed Siper/HisarRF Missiles.
I can’t see this ship with an interim solution. Even though the article states that ”at final stage” the quad-pack capability will be given to the MILDAS, that doesn’t necessarily mean an interim stage. One could read it as at final stage of the delivery the MILDAS will have quad-pack capability.
@Anmdt may enlighten us better here.

Hisar-RF is what Navy seeking forwards (with its latest form), and will be deployed on MIDLAS as Hisar-Deniz as ESSM replacement, however there is some other development with SAGE's G40 but i don't know what is that for, whether an in-house project or they plan something else. The Navy had joined the Hisar-RF project and Roketsan introduced an iteration on the form to make it for Navy's requirements.

From here we can further hope, Siper-Block I will be quadpackable as well (Since it is practically Hisar-RF+Booster) and it will boost air defense capabilities of the Navy.

The Quadpacking requires as much as half of the work done for the MIDLAS itself, TN Marks F-515's commissioning as a partial acceptance thus i still wonder whether it will be accepted without actually firing a missile from aboard, and the sea trials will be carried out later for the VLS later on.

 

[Nutuk]

Midlas will not be quadpack at first, that is something of later development.

Probably they can be upgraded later on for quadpack purposes if the G40 project is ever started up (G40 is still waiting on decision to start development)

 

[Abdelaziz]

ESSM replacement

But it has shorter rang than essm .. cant they use siper block 1 (hisar rf + booster ) giving the fact that the rang of FCR and the searching radar of i class are much longer

 

[TheInsider]

But it has shorter rang than essm .. cant they use siper block 1 (hisar rf + booster ) giving the fact that the rang of FCR and the searching radar of i class are much longer

Shorter range? Source?

 

[LegionnairE]

TCG Trakya needs to be at least 350m long

 

[Fighter_35]

Shorter range? Source?

essm has more than 40 km range and essm block 2 will have around 60-70 km range. So you say that hisar-o rf has same ranges or more than this figures? source?

 

[Yasar_TR]

essm has more than 40 km range and essm block 2 will have around 60-70 km range. So you say that hisar-o rf has same ranges or more than this figures? source?

ESSM block 2 to has the same 25 + mile (around 45-50km) range that block 1 has.
The only difference is that ESSM block 2 is much more manoeuvrable and is much less susceptible to electronic interference. This would make it more capable to intercept supersonic missiles too. Block 1 has semi active radar seeker head. But block 2 has a dual semi-active/active radar seeker.

Raytheon set to build more RIM-162 ESSM Block 2 shipboard missiles that offer increased maneuverability

ESSM is a medium-range, semi-active homing missile that makes flight corrections via radar and midcourse data uplinks for ship self-defense.

www.militaryaerospace.com

 

[Fighter_35]

ESSM block 2 to has the same 25 + mile (around 45-50km) range that block 1 has.
The only difference is that ESSM block 2 is much more manoeuvrable and is much less susceptible to electronic interference. This would make it more capable to intercept supersonic missiles too. Block 1 has semi active radar seeker head. But block 2 has a dual semi-active/active radar seeker.

Raytheon set to build more RIM-162 ESSM Block 2 shipboard missiles that offer increased maneuverability

ESSM is a medium-range, semi-active homing missile that makes flight corrections via radar and midcourse data uplinks for ship self-defense.

www.militaryaerospace.com

it does not have same range, Thx to upgrade in algorithms ,it can engage targets at longer ranges. thx to seeker chnage/upgrade , it does not need illumunation.
Lets say 50 km, what is the source that hisar -o rf has same range figures or more than 50 km?

 

[Oublious]

it does not have same range, Thx to upgrade in algorithms ,it can engage targets at longer ranges. thx to seeker chnage/upgrade , it does not need illumunation.
Lets say 50 km, what is the source that hisar -o rf has same range figures or more than 50 km?

Hisar will have dual stage rocket motor, it fires 2 times. When it fly to the target every missile in the world will go down with speed because the engine is burned up. How further the target is how difficult it is to hit the target because of the speed. Hisar like missiles will able to hit on max range. The range of Hisar is 25km+, if the engine burns to times so the range will be 50km.

 

[Yasar_TR]

it does not have same range, Thx to upgrade in algorithms ,it can engage targets at longer ranges. thx to seeker chnage/upgrade , it does not need illumunation.
Lets say 50 km, what is the source that hisar -o rf has same range figures or more than 50 km?

If it has longer range as you claim, contrary to what the sources I shared give, can you provide sources that back up this claim please? You are correct. the block two version does not need illumination. But the given range is the same as Block 1.
Everyone speculate with certain logic that HisarRF should have longer range than what the SSB is giving. But at the end of the day it is just speculation. On paper, what SSB says, is valid.
according to below site, Hisar RF missile has a range in excess of 35-40km.

HİSAR-RF Hava Savunma Füzesi'nden Tam İsabet!

Milli imkanlarla geliştirilen HİSAR-RF Orta İrtifa Hava Savunma Füzesi, icra edilen atışlı testler esnasında hedefini başarıyla imha etti.

www.savunmasanayist.com

When talking about the range of a missile the altitude at which this range is achieved also plays a big part.
Can it be so that, we want our missiles to go as fast as they can and be still under engine power at the terminal phase, to guarantee a hit? Can it also be so that our given ranges are for highest altitude the missile can achieve?
These last two points will show a much more conservative range figure than, may be, under real life conditions.
Also one has to remember that these missile systems will be available to other countries. So the range of Export version and a local version, may not be the same. In fact, it should not be the same. Also the real range of the missiles used by TSK, should not be open knowledge to everyone.

 

[TheInsider]

essm has more than 40 km range and essm block 2 will have around 60-70 km range. So you say that hisar-o rf has same ranges or more than this figures? source?

Range alone means nothing. Altitude and range should be given together. Hisar-RF is "at least" similar in performance to ESSM 2. Hisar-RF has around 35km range at 10km altitude and at those values the missile still has enough kinetic energy(thanks to dual pulse rocket motor) to preserve its high Pk value. 40km figure for ESSM is for 8km altitude and since ESSM doesn't have a dual pulse rocket motor its Pk decreases when the missile approaches its maximum engagement envelope.

 

[dustdevil]

Hisar O RF IIR for navy, thinking loud and could be not based on facts:

- short range point defense - yes
- ballistic missiles - no
- discern low RCS targets - should be tested with simulations & target drone tests
- discern tartgets skimming over sea - should be tested as well
- high maneuver capability - should be enough for point defense
- long range - with booster yes, if booster can be fitted to national VLS major boost for Turkish navy
- high altitude capability - with booster yes, upper levels would need other means for control
- quadpack - depends on the diameter. Despite photos I could not calculate its diameter because other missile dimensions are also unknown. Probably similar to ESSM, between 200 and 260 mm diameter. ESSM has short aspect ratio wings, Hisar RF/Siper wings are bigger and could be hard to quadpack. Length is also a mystery for me especially with the custom booster. If we could fit the booster with the missile to Corvette sized ships it would be awesome
- big warhead - not enough to knock big and fast targets when pass distance is big
- speed - test videos suggest low speed at launch compared with other missile tests like Aster. Some of it could be due to low smoke propellants.
- economic - if mass produced it should be


If I was the military planner I'd do this:

- Since VLS would be national and domestic fit as much cells as possible to all ship sizes
- design domestic VLS that can accept all national missiles OMGSFS, Atmaca, Gezgin, SOM derivatives, rocket assisted long range torpedo and mines, loiter drones
- don't cut parallel tactical missile programs and let SAGE innovate and let Roketsan design easy to manufacture economical missiles.
- All ships should have air defence to visual and radar horizon & their own dedicated mass drones armed with multi purpose missiles and sensors. The drones should be air/surface/underwater.
- combine multiple multi purpose Gökers in case CIWS is needed, they can help other systems like Gökdeniz/Phalanx
- Design bigger diameter missiles for high altitude long range interceptions. SM-6 like capability should be the goal.

 

[Huelague]

If it has longer range as you claim, contrary to what the sources I shared give, can you provide sources that back up this claim please? You are correct. the block two version does not need illumination. But the given range is the same as Block 1.
Everyone speculate with certain logic that HisarRF should have longer range than what the SSB is giving. But at the end of the day it is just speculation. On paper, what SSB says, is valid.
according to below site, Hisar RF missile has a range in excess of 35-40km.

HİSAR-RF Hava Savunma Füzesi'nden Tam İsabet!

Milli imkanlarla geliştirilen HİSAR-RF Orta İrtifa Hava Savunma Füzesi, icra edilen atışlı testler esnasında hedefini başarıyla imha etti.

www.savunmasanayist.com

When talking about the range of a missile the altitude at which this range is achieved also plays a big part.
Can it be so that, we want our missiles to go as fast as they can and be still under engine power at the terminal phase, to guarantee a hit? Can it also be so that our given ranges are for highest altitude the missile can achieve?
These last two points will show a much more conservative range figure than, may be, under real life conditions.
Also one has to remember that these missile systems will be available to other countries. So the range of Export version and a local version, may not be the same. In fact, it should not be the same. Also the real range of the missiles used by TSK, should not be open knowledge to everyone.

They always say. "We dont give up the exact range." Means more than official announcement.

 

[Fighter_35]

Range alone means nothing. Altitude and range should be given together. Hisar-RF is "at least" similar in performance to ESSM 2. Hisar-RF has around 35km range at 10km altitude and at those values the missile still has enough kinetic energy(thanks to dual pulse rocket motor) to preserve its high Pk value. 40km figure for ESSM is for 8km altitude and since ESSM doesn't have a dual pulse rocket motor its Pk decreases when the missile approaches its maximum engagement envelope.

Essm Block 2 has more range and altitude than your figures for hisar Rf.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Essm Block 2 has more range and altitude than your figures for hisar Rf.

Source?

Edit:
Yes correct. 40 to 50+Km ranges given for ESSM is more than what SSB gives for Hisar RF.
I misunderstood your above post. Sorry! I thought you were still on block 1 and block 2 issue; Because even Raytheon’s own site gives it as “around 40km” for both blocks.

https://www.raytheon.com/sites/default/files/capabilities/rtnwcm/groups/public/documents/download/rms12_essm_evolution.pdf

 

[TheInsider]

Essm Block 2 has more range and altitude than your figures for hisar Rf.

Again what is the altitude? BTW ESSM-1 has a ~27nm (50km) maximum range at 5km altitude. 40km range is given for 8km altitude. ESSM-2 has also similar range altitude values. If you do the math Hisar-RF is similar to ESSM-1/2. 35km@10km, 40km @8km, and 50km @5km are the same thing.