TR Naval Programs

[Windchime]

The problem is only taken care of if SLBM and ASM. It is clear that we will go there in 5-10 years.

Yes, Türkiye will probably get there in the future. They have both the ballistic missile and VLS on ships. The thing is that they don't need to achieve everything in one go.

Most importantly, as I've said submarines without VLS are still very lethal and useful as an asymmetric force. If they develop a long range surface to surface cruise missile, they'll be able to launch it through a torpedo tube of MILDEN. No need to get obsessed with a single feautre.

You!
Need to calm down and learn to take criticism.
Dont be so emotional,this our biggest flaw as a people.
First we need to be able to build an indigenous system,then go from there.
Hürküs lead to Hürjet leads to MMU/TFX.
Think about it.

Well, my post wasn't even critical about Türkiye in the first place. Just gave a logical explanation to why it's okay to build a submarine without a VLS.

As I've said before, a submarine with Ca. 2,500t of displacement with up-to-date electronics, or in other words MILDEN will do its job effectively in the Aegeans and East Mediterranean.

On the other hand, should agree that some people should fix their attitude. They just get pissed off right away as soon as they think someone's bashing Türkiye and can't think otherwise.

 

[Baryshx]

Yes, Türkiye will probably get there in the future. They have both the ballistic missile and VLS on ships. The thing is that they don't need to achieve everything in one go.

Most importantly, as I've said submarines without VLS are still very lethal and useful as an asymmetric force. If they develop a long range surface to surface cruise missile, they'll be able to launch it through a torpedo tube of MILDEN. No need to get obsessed with a single feautre.


Well, my post wasn't even critical about Türkiye in the first place. Just gave a logical explanation to why it's okay to build a submarine without a VLS.

As I've said before, a submarine with Ca. 2,500t of displacement with up-to-date electronics, or in other words MILDEN will do its job effectively in the Aegeans and East Mediterranean.

On the other hand, should agree that some people should fix their attitude. They just get pissed off right away as soon as they think someone's bashing Türkiye and can't think otherwise.

I wrote it mixed with a joke, understood what you mean and agree with you.

Some friends have to restrain themselves. Be open to criticism, ideas and opposing arguments.

 

[Anmdt]

Mdas or balistic launcher. View attachment 47224

Or Dry dock shelter, SDV dock, diver bay or something as such for multi-purpose applications. TN will be operating unmanned medium-small underwater vehicles from MILDEN too, the bay could be used for those as well.

 

[Anmdt]

Whoa whoa, chill mate, I've never said anything close to that. Quit the "create and hit a straw" strategy. I'm asking why Türkiye needs a VLS if it's got no armaments that actually needs it.

Those arms will be available by then, but is Navy interested in using those? To my understanding Navy's first priority is to have 8 + 8 spares, totalling 24 missiles / torpedoes, and holding onto torpedo tube launched AShM, SLCM and SAM capabilities. Even supersonic AShM is intended to fit into a torpedo tube's canister.

I would guess the first 4 hulls will be conventional layout with few extras that is not quite conventional. Then another 2 (or 3) will come in different configuration, by 2040, to support force projection.

 

[Combat-Master]

Mdas or balistic launcher. View attachment 47224

10x Torpedo Tubes, does it really need VLS ?

On the plate, written is MILDEN-I, further types are being considered too ?

 

[Zafer]

We do not want a navy that is weak. We do not want to be intimidated by bullies. It only makes sense to have an initial couple of ships with some lacking firepower if following builds will come with decent weapons load. We don't need to put a cap to how powerful our ships can be while hostiles have ships fully loaded. We are still at 80 meter ballpark while larger ships are all around us.

 

[Saithan]

Lol says someone ignoring the economic challenges of our country.

 

[Ripley]

What do you mean by proposed? The first ship has been delivered long ago and the second and third ships have already been launched.

Also, I don't know if the Ca. 2,500t displacement of MILDEN is surfaced or submerged, but if it's the latter, KSS-III is around a 1,000t larger in displacement. Cramping in VLS inside that ship will ruin crew compartments and living conditions.

Most importantly, what does Türkiye want to do with VLS? ROKN has both the SLBM and supersonic ASM. Better opt for a more conventional layout on your first go.

Proposed batch 2 designed for VLS. IIRC they are currently at Batch 1 (not sure whether still construction or delivery phase, though. Sorry about that)

And the size, +2500 t seems really tight to support VLS, you are right.
I guess I was hoping for some design revisions in the future to support the VLS system.
But who knows maybe TN will require such revision in the future.

 

[Windchime]

Proposed batch 2 designed for VLS. IIRC they are currently at Batch 1 (not sure whether still construction or delivery phase, though. Sorry about that)

Batch 1 also has 6 cells of VLS Batch 2 and will have 10. Their delivery status are as I've mentioned.

 

[Ripley]

@Windchime
“Which role do you think MILDEN will fulfill in the Aegean Sea?”
Your question is sooo legit and, in fact, explains why those upstart Turks fantasizes of big boom with small stuff

First of all, it’s nothing more than a threat perception.
Secondly, where there is a design called STM500 which perfectly fits for any littoral duties (Aegean region, in particular, as you pointed out), the common sense suggests that Milden will have been designed for something else. Should have been designed for something else.
So what is it?
let’s rewind a little bit. Please bear with me.
Starting about a decade ago, some Eastern Mediterranean countries together with a North African country and our Aegean neighbor formed a kind of agreement and cooperation to harvest all sorts of natural wealth from a geographical area covering the entire Eastern Mediterranean and excluded Turkey which has the longest shore on the particular sea. Good for them.

In time, however, they developed their deal/agreement to corporate more than economics, to a security agreement, again excluding Turkey, claiming here and there that Turkey under Erdoğan‘s regime has become an irredentist country and envisions a revival of Ottoman Empire, thus creating something of a, league if you will, against Turkey, echoing from Ancient Greek and 16th century.

Turkish naval doctrine thinkers, in return developed Blue Homeland theory which suggests that Turkey must have her own independent naval force projection and things escalated further as Turkey sent a fleet of probe ships to mentioned waters in navtex designated areas.
It came to such a critical point that, one of our NATO allies, from Western Mediterranean who also has a shore against Atlantic sent her aircraft carrier to “protect” one Of the ‘league’ members who also happens to be a NATO member and supposedly dictate us their will.

I personally consider myself to have a short span memory yet all these are etched into mine as most of the Turks.

Moral of the story: Strategically thinking (from my point of view), Turkey should not be cornered to be defending her mere littoral rights whereas everybody else cooperating to project their force upon her. Hence the necessity of a long range, all purpose with a huge and precise ka-boom capable vessel.

It was a long piece, sorry about that.

 

[Windchime]

Secondly, where there is a design called STM500 which perfectly fits for any littoral duties (Aegean region, in particular, as you pointed out), the common sense suggests that Milden will have been designed for something else. Should have been designed for something else.

Size doesn't only matters in terms of if a ship is capable of housing a VLS or not. When it comes to submarines, it could also mean range of other things, such as the AIP, flank array sonar, etc or could mean bigger batteries and bow sonar, etc. That's why we see quite a few submarines around the world which are not equipped with VLS but have a submerged displacement that well exceeds 3,000t. Also, like me and many other on this thread have pointed out, MILDEN will be able to launch cruise missiles from its torpedo tubes, if Türkiye develops one. That is something that is hard to be done with a 500t submarine. All in all, size itself means a lot of difference that, baring VLS, are already significant enough.

let’s rewind a little bit. Please bear with me.
Starting about a decade ago, some Eastern Mediterranean countries together with a North African country and our Aegean neighbor formed a kind of agreement and cooperation to harvest all sorts of natural wealth from a geographical area covering the entire Eastern Mediterranean and excluded Turkey which has the longest shore on the particular sea. Good for them. ....

Now, I'll not comment on those matters since I am not knowledgeable enough to publicly express my views on the matters regarding the East Mediterranean region, though I generally agree with the needs for Türkiye to cultivate it's domestic capabilities. Then again, if someone asks me if that means that Türkiye needs to build the first batch of MILDEN with VLS, I'll answer that I don't think so.

 

[Ripley]

Also, like me and many other on this thread have pointed out, MILDEN will be able to launch cruise missiles from its torpedo tubes, if Türkiye develops one. That is something that is hard to be done with a 500t submarine. All in all, size itself

Of course, and I pointed out the same myself at another post of mine. Tube launchers.
For STM500, I doubt many would dream of a mini VLS sub, including me. It beats the purpose of it and would Be nothing but a huge waste. I also described its role in my post: a littoral sub

Then again, if someone asks me if that means that Türkiye needs to build the first batch of MILDEN with VLS, I'll answer that I don't think so.

Maybe not the first batch but future installments absolutely as I tried to describe the events that led to the broader strategic sense and, again, I hardly see it as my duty to convince you otherwise as you are entitled to your opinion.
see ya around

 

[Oublious]

MILDEN with VLS and firing TBM to Greece from the south west coast is an example about what MILDEN with VLS can do. If you can attack Greece from south west coast they would have to split ther airdefence forces in two if they have it. Patriots have to protect not only island but mainland. Not only ther airdefece force but ther navy would have to work harder and split it in 2.

Why concentrate fight in the agean sea and not in the open sea? Why give Greece advantage? Not only Greece but France should be ad to the list. We could attack France with it...

A VLS is a must have, if it is not possible later models...

 

[Windchime]

Of course, and I pointed out the same myself at another post of mine. Tube launchers.
For STM500, I doubt many would dream of a mini VLS sub, including me. It beats the purpose of it and would Be nothing but a huge waste. I also described its role in my post: a littoral sub

Maybe not the first batch but future installments absolutely as I tried to describe the events that led to the broader strategic sense and, again, I hardly see it as my duty to convince you otherwise as you are entitled to your opinion.
see ya around

Then let's agree to disagree. Once more, MILDEN just entered preliminary design phase and things can still change. I think we've discussed enough about VLS on MILDEN and there are other interesting topics about TDK programs, for example naval SIPER for TD-2000.

 

[Ripley]

Then let's agree to disagree.

I thought I just did that

 

[Anmdt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564928646976049152

Submarine Dry Dock is floated, it will soon delivered to the Gölcük Naval Shipyard. Wonder why they required 5 days interrupted service for the dry dock with logistics provided for 42 people. We will need one more of this, soon.

MILDEN with VLS and firing TBM to Greece from the south west coast is an example about what MILDEN with VLS can do. If you can attack Greece from south west coast they would have to split ther airdefence forces in two if they have it. Patriots have to protect not only island but mainland. Not only ther airdefece force but ther navy would have to work harder and split it in 2.

Why concentrate fight in the agean sea and not in the open sea? Why give Greece advantage? Not only Greece but France should be ad to the list. We could attack France with it...

A VLS is a must have, if it is not possible later models...

View attachment 47245

I have stayed silent on this VLS discussion, but Milden is not even intended for Aegean sea, More for Blue water operations and force projection duties where it also fire Gezgin deep into the enemy's territory. No need VLS for this It will carry 20-24 torpedoes (or 24 units of heavy weapons of choice).

The one who will deliver Gezgin / KARA from Aegean Sea is STM500 / Reis / Ay Class or other light unmanned subs.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Thanks Navalnews
Milden 3D compared to U214

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Barbaros MLU

 

[Agha Sher]

Barbaros MLU

View attachment 47346

What is the timeline for the MLU? When are each of the 4 ships expected to be back in service?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Thanks Navalnews
Milden 3D compared to U214

View attachment 47342

Milden will be the culmination of what we have learnt and gathered in submarine construction technology. Having manufactured and modernised a good number of these boats in Turkey, albeit some work done under licence, Turkish submarine building technology has matured to a level whereby a totally indigenous submarine, namely MILDEN can be designed and built. Short of some propulsion technology that may have to be imported, majority of all the components and critical weapon systems will be built in house.
MILDEN boats will dive deeper, stay under water longer and be bigger than the U-214 Reis class submarines. It will most probably use AIP and/or Li-Ion battery technology to give it more instant power and longevity of operation.
It will carry more weapons than a Reis class, like Atmaca anti ship and Gezgin cruise missiles, as well as locally produced Orka heavy torpedoes that will be launched from the same torpedo tubes.
By breaking the chains that tie our hands when building weapons and platforms that use those weapons, Turkey will be taking it’s place among a very few countries that has technology to design and build all it’s naval platforms.