TR Naval Programs

[Anmdt]

Turkish, Evolved Sungur missile has 4 RF antennas to take readings. Hence need not roll, to take measurements in two planes

I was assuming the missile uses two pairs of the RF sensors and still needs to roll to scan the 360 degrees. So, they instead use a technique to use 4 antennas at once to detect the angle of RF source? Or are they using each possible pair's (6 pairs in total) interference map to deduce a point in 3D?

 

[Afif]

View attachment 47808 View attachment 47809

So, they are using smart-s mk2 and PHALANX instead of chenk-s and GOKDENIZ. Interesting though !

 

[UkroTurk]

In my opinion, Tubitak's solution is still ahead of Roketsan's and can be delivered in shorter times compared to Levent Block II

What was the Tubitak's solution? Could you share an image?

Is Levent missile also rolling?


EDIT:
What if Greek Navy deploy Naval Strike Missiles that don't emit RF.

Gökdeniz 35mm CIWS and Levent combination should be on the list

 

[Afif]

What was the Tubitak's solution? Could you share an image?

Is Levent missile also rolling?

I think tubitak solution is based on Gokdogan with aselsan involvement in the project . Check out GOKDENIZ ER.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I was assuming the missile uses two pairs of the RF sensors and still needs to roll to scan the 360 degrees. So, they instead use a technique to use 4 antennas at once to detect the angle of RF source? Or are they using each possible pair's (6 pairs in total) interference map to deduce a point in 3D?

The 2 antenna version of RIM-116 has a 180 degree coverage. By rotating the missile they achieve 360 degree coverage. As an added bonus they do away with angle ambiguity problem. RIM-116 also has 2 more antennas at the rear to block signal interference.
This Turkish missile has been developed from Sungur missile. Sungur does not roll around it’s axis. It is logical to think that this missile too, doesn’t. 4 antennas used at the same time will give the necessary coverage.
What you are suggesting is viable too, and would be costly yet more accurate. Rolling the missile has it’s advantages as well.
We’ll have to wait and see. (Unless you know something that will hold more light)

 

[Oublious]

TCG Istanbul with Mildas ?

First ship will have MK41 with ESSM block 2, they delivered the system but after 4 years.

 

[Osman]

A few months ago I've read an article of ibrahim sünnetçi where he said that some block 2 missiles have been delivered.

 

[Anmdt]

What was the Tubitak's solution? Could you share an image?

Is Levent missile also rolling?


EDIT:
What if Greek Navy deploy Naval Strike Missiles that don't emit RF.

Gökdeniz 35mm CIWS and Levent combination should be on the list

That is why it has IIR + Passive RF seekers.
Also combine it with Nazar DIRCM.

 

[Afif]

A few months ago I've read an article of ibrahim sünnetçi where he said that some block 2 missiles have been delivered.

can you give me the link please ?

 

[Osman]

DzKK ve RIM-162B ESSM Blok-I/Blok-II Güdümlü Mermileri

İbrahim SÜNNETCİ 1986 yılında NATO üyesi 13 ülkenin (İtalya’nın ayrılması ile sonradan 12’ye inmiştir) oluşturduğu NATO SeaSparrow Güdümlü Mermi Sistemleri Konsorsiyumu’na katılan Türkiye, DzKK hizmetindeki MEKO 200 Tipi YAVUZ (Track I) ve BARBAROS Sınıfı (Track IIA ve Track IIB) Fırkateynlerde kull

tr.linkedin.com

" ESSM Blok-II G/M Mutabakat Muhtırası altında Türkiye’nin ihtiyacı 145 adet ESSM Blok-II G/M’si olarak tanımlanmış olup bu kapsamda ilk parti 8 adet ESSM Blok-II G/M 2019 yazında Türk Deniz Kuvvetlerine teslim edilmiştir. "

Need was determined as 145 block 2 missiles, First 8 delievered in 2019 summer. We should have more of them

Ed: In the article sünnetçi gave the range of block 2 as 80 km.

 

[Baryshx]

What was the Tubitak's solution? Could you share an image?

Is Levent missile also rolling?


EDIT:
What if Greek Navy deploy Naval Strike Missiles that don't emit RF.

Gökdeniz 35mm CIWS and Levent combination should be on the list

Gökdeniz-ER with 4 sides Aesa

I think tubitak solution is based on Gokdogan with aselsan involvement in the project . Check out GOKDENIZ ER.

It was written to be derived from Bozdoğan, but it is not clear.

 

[Afif]

Gökdeniz-ER with 4 sides Aesa

It was written to be derived from Bozdoğan, but it is not clear.

Sorry I meant Bozdoğan !

 

[Afif]

DzKK ve RIM-162B ESSM Blok-I/Blok-II Güdümlü Mermileri

İbrahim SÜNNETCİ 1986 yılında NATO üyesi 13 ülkenin (İtalya’nın ayrılması ile sonradan 12’ye inmiştir) oluşturduğu NATO SeaSparrow Güdümlü Mermi Sistemleri Konsorsiyumu’na katılan Türkiye, DzKK hizmetindeki MEKO 200 Tipi YAVUZ (Track I) ve BARBAROS Sınıfı (Track IIA ve Track IIB) Fırkateynlerde kull

tr.linkedin.com

" ESSM Blok-II G/M Mutabakat Muhtırası altında Türkiye’nin ihtiyacı 145 adet ESSM Blok-II G/M’si olarak tanımlanmış olup bu kapsamda ilk parti 8 adet ESSM Blok-II G/M 2019 yazında Türk Deniz Kuvvetlerine teslim edilmiştir. "

Need was determined as 145 block 2 missiles, First 8 delievered in 2019 summer. We should have more of them

Ed: In the article sünnetçi gave the range of block 2 as 80 km.

Thanks to you! I read the article. The 80km is the maximum range of essm block ii not the effective range. However, It still seems to be ahead of the hisar RF in term of capability. Specially, against the supersonic anti ship cruise missiles. That's of course my personal opinion. I am interested what turkish freinds thinks here? Hisar RF essm block ii? Which is better choice for i class from a technical point of view ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Thanks to you! I read the article. The 80km is the maximum range of essm block ii not the effective range. However, It still seems to be ahead of the hisar RF in term of capability. Specially, against the supersonic anti ship cruise missiles. That's of course my personal opinion. I am interested what turkish freinds thinks here? Hisar RF essm block ii? Which is better choice for i class from a technical point of view ?

ESSM uses a Dual-Thrust engine to propel it. Hisar-RF uses a Dual-Pulse engine. So ESSM reaches it’s maximum speed of 4 Mach quickly and the dual propellant sustains this speed as long as it can. Then the missile starts losing speed. Especially when it has to manoeuvre. Hisar-RF goes up to a high enough speed towards target. Once it is close it fires fuel in second part of the fuel tank. Then acquires the target at 3.5-4 Mach. Theoretically it’s effectiveness of target acquirement should be better. Or at least on par with ESSM.
ESSM may have a maximum range of 80km. But it’s effective usable range is around 40-50km at best.
Turkey being in the development consortium of both blocks of ESSM, should know enough about this missile and if developing her own mid range air defence missile, it is logical to think that it is not inferior to ESSM.
Due to ambiguity of known technical data of Hisar, and the indigenous nature of its manufacture, I would go for Hisar every time.

 

[Afif]

ESSM uses a Dual-Thrust engine to propel it. Hisar-RF uses a Dual-Pulse engine. So ESSM reaches it’s maximum speed of 4 Mach quickly and the dual propellant sustains this speed as long as it can. Then the missile starts losing speed. Especially when it has to manoeuvre. Hisar-RF goes up to a high enough speed towards target. Once it is close it fires fuel in second part of the fuel tank. Then acquires the target at 3.5-4 Mach. Theoretically it’s effectiveness of target acquirement should be better. Or at least on par with ESSM.
ESSM may have a maximum range of 80km. But it’s effective usable range is around 40-50km at best.
Turkey being in the development consortium of both blocks of ESSM, should know enough about this missile and if developing her own mid range air defence missile, it is logical to think that it is not inferior to ESSM.
Due to ambiguity of known technical data of Hisar, and the indigenous nature of its manufacture, I would go for Hisar every time.

I am not quite sure if essm has dual thrust engine. But have a look at it

. Motor Burning time around 10 second. And it doesn't seems to have any sustain motor.

Anyway, I didn't knew, HISAR RF is also a dual pulse like hisar o+. I mean, I tried to find that information but as far as i read there was no confirmation about it. Do you have any source mentioning HISAR RF has dual pulse ? If you have can you please share it. And If it is the case then of course HISAR RF will be the ideal choice.

however, can it be quad packed like essm? i didnt find any confirmation about it either

 

[Radonsider]

I am not quite sure if essm has dual thrust engine. But have a look at it

. Motor Burning time around 10 second. And it doesn't seems to have any sustain motor.

Anyway, I didn't knew, HISAR RF is also a dual pulse like hisar o+. I mean, I tried to find that information but as far as i read there was no confirmation about it. Do you have any source mentioning HISAR RF has dual pulse ? If you have can you please share it. And If it is the case then of course HISAR RF will be the ideal choice.

however, can it be quad packed like essm? i didnt find any official confirmation about it either

iirc all Hisar and Siper series have TVC and dual pulse (Hisar A has TVC but not sure about dual pulse)

And you can take Ibrahim Sünnetçi as an official source, and he said Siper-D will be quadpackable (which will be bigger than Hisar series), so there will be minimal problems quadpacking Hisar-RF

 

[Yasar_TR]

I am not quite sure if essm has dual thrust engine. But have a look at it

. Motor Burning time around 10 second. And it doesn't seems to have any sustain motor.

Anyway, I didn't knew, HISAR RF is also a dual pulse like hisar o+. I mean, I tried to find that information but as far as i read there was no confirmation about it. Do you have any source mentioning HISAR RF has dual pulse ? If you have can you please share it. And If it is the case then of course HISAR RF will be the ideal choice.

however, can it be quad packed like essm? i didnt find any confirmation about it either

If you know what a dual thrust engine is , then you know that it is only one engine and one fuel tank. But in the fuel tank you have two different fuels;
One fuel burns quick and gives sudden and quick thrust. The other fuel burns slow and sustains the speed of the first fuel.

quote:

ESSM (RIM-162) propulsion and performance​

The ESSM anti-ship missile is powered by a high-performance mk 134 Mod 0 rocket motor dual-propellant propulsion system that develops high thrust. The motor can operate in temperatures, ranging between -14°F to 133°F.
unquote.

All hisar and Siper missiles have Dual Pulse engines. It was repeatedly written here and at different sources.

 

[Afif]

If you know what a dual thrust engine is , then you know that it is only one engine and one fuel tank. But in the fuel tank you have two different fuels;
One fuel burns quick and gives sudden and quick thrust. The other fuel burns slow and sustains the speed of the first fuel.

quote:

ESSM (RIM-162) propulsion and performance​

The ESSM anti-ship missile is powered by a high-performance mk 134 Mod 0 rocket motor dual-propellant propulsion system that develops high thrust. The motor can operate in temperatures, ranging between -14°F to 133°F.
unquote.

All hisar and Siper missiles have Dual Pulse engines. It was repeatedly written here and at different sources.

I know what dual thrust motor is. from that video it first appeared to me it only has boost motor. But after you quoted, well Obviously I was wrong.

Anyway, both hisar A and O has always known to have dual pulse from the beginning. siper also has dual pulse. it has been confirmed in defenceturkey magazin and ohter places. However, about hisar rf i read only people in this forum saying it is also a dual pulse. But I didn't find any reliable source yet. Can you provide one? I don't understand turkish so I maybe miss some.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I know what dual thrust motor is. from that video it first appeared to me it only has boost motor. But after you quoted, well Obviously I was wrong.

Anyway, both hisar A and O has always known to have dual pulse from the beginning. siper also has dual pulse. it has been confirmed in defenceturkey magazin and ohter places. However, about hisar rf i read only people in this forum saying it is also a dual pulse. But I didn't find any reliable source yet. Can you provide one? I don't understand turkish so I maybe miss some.

You don't really need a specific Hisar RF specification. Because it is essentially a Hisar O+ missile with RF seeker head. It uses the same propulsion.
Below site has Ismail Demir's take on the same where he is telling that the Hisar O+ fitted with RF seeker has been successfully fired.

Turkey Successfully Test-Fires The HİSAR-RF Air Defense Missile

According to the Presidency of Defense Industries, the Hisar O+ Air Defense System successfully completed a test fire utilizing an RF seeker missile.

www.overtdefense.com

 

[Combat-Master]

Possible MKE 127mm Cannon in the middle ? - From Aselsan brochure