TR Naval Programs

[Brave Janissary]

armamament and testing a looks little bit long

 

[dBSPL]

I think Turkey will reveal a new short range naval air defense missile system (Sapan) based on Sungur that will replace RAM missiles on Turkish naval platforms. Most likely, Fac-55 FAC won’t have any foreign RAM missile on poop deck.

View attachment 10258

This mockup (1) still a mystery. Maybe, it will sit between Bozdoğan and Sungur.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

This mockup (1) still a mystery. Maybe, it will sit between Bozdoğan and Sungur.

This is RAM missile (32kg). The mock-up missile introduced by SAGE looks quite similar in size/diameter and can be modified for naval roles but I think the fins must be folding type for multiple missile launchers.

 

[mulj]

17 January, F515 TCG Istanbul will be launched on sea!

View attachment 10288

This is frigate with enhanced air defence capabilities?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

This is frigate with enhanced air defence capabilities?

Yes, A 3000t displacement frigate with 16 cell VLS. Second I class will have domestic MİDAS VLS with quad packable G40 missiles on board. Later, 7000ton Tf-2000 AAW deatroyer and 4500ton multi-purpose frigate will follow.

 

[mulj]

Yes, A 3000t displacement frigate with 16 cell VLS. Second I class will have domestic MİDAS VLS with quad packable G40 missiles on board. Later, 7000ton Tf-2000 AAW deatroyer and 4500ton multi-purpose frigate will follow.

New year did not start properly and already great news, it will increase operational capabilities and add one more variable for consideration to the potential adversaires. By your opinion, how attractive it would be as export, i see it as very good option for the navies which needs more air defence but classical destroyers are to expensive or unreachable for them?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

New year did not start properly and already great news, it will increase operational capabilities and add one more variable for consideration to the potential adversaires. By your opinion, how attractive it would be as export, i see it as very good option for the navies which needs more air defence but classical destroyers are to expensive or unreachable for them?

If you pay attention to countries with big naval tradition in NATO, You will see they have AAW concept with mostly US Aegis radar, CMS and missile package. France and UK are exception. Turkey will join into this league of exception with national programs related with Tf2000. Çafrad radar complex, Advent CMS and Hisar/G40/Siper/HALR family naval missiles; Atmaca SSM/Gezgin land attack missles will put Turkey into very special position between these countries. The marine propulsion systems will remain as the biggest matter in this journey and New Ukraine/Turkey JV institute called Lodos which is established to produce marine propulsion systems will overcome this problem in near future. Turkey should think about Minus/Plus of exporting a strategic platform like Tf200 (capabilities equal to Turkish variant) to a country so I think Only a few countries will be allowed to purchase this ship in Turkish variant. These platform will be costly but a real game changer without any doubt. Noone wants such a strategic technology to be end up in the hand of a state that may turn hostile in accordance to the direction of political winds so export success of such big programs are not important matter for me.

 

[mulj]

View attachment 10308
If you pay attention to countries with big naval tradition in NATO, You will see they have AAW concept with mostly US Aegis radar, CMS and missile package. France and UK are exception. Turkey will join into this league of exception with national programs related with Tf2000. Çafrad radar complex, Advent CMS and Hisar/G40/Siper/HALR family naval missiles; Atmaca SSM/Gezgin land attack missles will put Turkey into very special position between these countries. The marine propulsion systems will remain as the biggest matter in this journey and New Ukraine/Turkey JV institute called Lodos which is established to produce marine propulsion systems will overcome this problem in near future. Turkey should think about Minus/Plus of exporting a strategic platform like Tf200 (capabilities equal to Turkish variant) to a country so I think Only a few countries will be allowed to purchase this ship in Turkish variant. These platform will be costly but a real game changer without any doubt. Noone wants such a strategic technology to be end up in the hand of a state that may turn hostile in accordance to the direction of political winds so export success of such big programs are not important matter for me.

Thanks for detailed answer and some aspects that i did not think about. By your opinion it is even better then ordinary money income from export, one more tool for forging alliaances and power projection as the established super powers do it for decades, hope it will goes below radar of them in terms of radical moves to stop such activites.

 

[Turko]

This is RAM missile (32kg). The mock-up missile introduced by SAGE looks quite similar in size/diameter and can be modified for naval roles but I think the fins must be folding type for multiple missile launchers.

View attachment 10302

Chaparral is first example of sidewinder based SAM system.

İmagine 4 Gökdoğan missiles were on the ships.

https://weaponsystems.net/system/761-Sea+Chaparral

 

[AzeriTank]

Chaparral is first example of sidewinder based SAM system.
View attachment 10309
İmagine 4 Gökdoğan missiles were on the ships.
View attachment 10310
View attachment 10311

https://weaponsystems.net/system/761-Sea+Chaparral

they need to be packed in like ram missiles, otherwise it will worsen the stealth characteristics of the ship...

 

[Turko]

they need to be packed in like ram missiles, otherwise it will worsen the stealth characteristics of the ship...

In order to pack them you need to transform fins' design like RAM. Moreover RAM has 20 missiles which cost totally 20 million usd. Just 4 missiles are cheaper.

 

[AzeriTank]

In order to pack them you need to transform fins' design like RAM. Moreover RAM has 20 missiles which cost totally 20 million usd. Just 4 missiles are cheaper.

thats why they are not used in Turkish navy or only used in VLS

 

[Turko]

thats why they are not used in Turkish navy or only used in VLS

They ( göktuğ missiles) aren't used because they haven't completed yet.
Non vertical horizontal rotating launchers are very common in Turkish Navy (see: Sea sparrow missiles)

 

[Blank1]

 

[Yasar_TR]

This is RAM missile (32kg). The mock-up missile introduced by SAGE looks quite similar in size/diameter and can be modified for naval roles but I think the fins must be folding type for multiple missile launchers.

View attachment 10302

If memory serves, RAM missiles were developed by using aim 9 sidewinder motor, fuze, warhead and the IR seeker of the stinger missile.
aim 9 sidewinder is a 85kg missile. Stinger is 10kg.
RAM missile weighs 89kg.
Sungur missile weighs ~15kg
Current block 2 RAM missile has 15 km range and has an altitude of 8km. (so on paper it is almost as good if not a better performing missile than hisarA) .
If Sapan RAM missile is going to be any thing like this it has to be based on bozdogan missile and should weigh similarly.
RAM missiles are expensive. They are over 1million dollars each. With 21 missiles in a pod each sistem is around 25 million dollars. If you have 2 systems per ship, the math is there!
To be effective they are spent in multiples.
An indigenous RAM equivalent has to be more affordable whilst doing the same job.

 

[Test7]

Finally

 

[Turko]

Regarding expensive cost of RAM(In my humble opinion which has suspecious efficiency ) GÖKDENİZ will solve all problems which don't exist. G40 plus Gökdeniz CIWS will be enough combination.

 

[dBSPL]

Regarding expensive cost of RAM(In my humble opinion which has suspecious efficiency ) GÖKDENİZ will solve all problems which don't exist. G40 plus Gökdeniz CIWS will be enough combination.

Although I agree with your wishes and thoughts (Gökdeniz CIWS and national ESSM solution like G40), I should add that the word of "Enough" should never be used in naval forces. These ships are the floating lands of our republic and must continue to evolve throughout their service life.

For example, if our friends from Israel join us, we can also discuss about the extent to which even the Israel navy boats are equipped with dozens of CM systems. I do not want to make individual speculative statements on a product basis. However, we need to know that, when İ Class frigates will put into service, there will be first line ships that will come to the fore in the most risky regions and in times of crisis. Apart from personnel training and combat readiness issues, the maximum range of decisions / reaction options on ships needs to be established and provide to ship command.

 

[chngr]

Regarding expensive cost of RAM(In my humble opinion which has suspecious efficiency ) GÖKDENİZ will solve all problems which don't exist. G40 plus Gökdeniz CIWS will be enough combination.

It would be wrong to use a RAM system in class I.

There will already be 64 ESSM/G40...This is already too much

We need RAM system in FACs

 

[Turko]

Again in my humble opinion, FACs need more reliable defence system such as CIWS, due-to their consistently attack missions. But I've no idea , at the rear of the FAC , if CİWS could be efficient. You might be right with RAM but Gökdeniz CIWS seems more solid and reliable to me.

On the other hand I assume Turkish Navy prepares itself for threats just come from Greek Navy. So all countermeasures are against Greek subsonic Harpoon and Exocets. What if Russian supersonic missiles were used against Turkish FACs?