TR Naval Programs

[Nutuk]

Mar-D on Gökdeniz is actually optional, and intended for standalone use of Gökdeniz (on small vessel lacking a 3D search radar and a mast to support it)
On Barbaros there are two CIWS, this could be reason why Mar-D was not attached to Gökdeniz.

On I-Class, it will make sense to wait and see whether it was moved on a mast for better coverage. They might have changed the design.

Or maybe it will be adequate to be position it on Gökdeniz since there is one CIWS and it wouldn't matter if Mar-D can specifically scan blind spots of the CIWS (which is also covered by Smart-S).
So from that point of view it is standardized, Barbaros had 2 masts which made it easier. and we haven't seen I-Class fully yet.

What you say is true, there are 2 CIWS on the MEKO, but I think there are also 2 CIWS on the I-class.

One of the main differences between the I-class and the Meko 200 is the main 76mm cannon.
As far as I know I-class is to get the super Rapid 76mm with possible the dart / strales munition (so the main cannon will function as CIWS)

The Meko 200 Barbaros is to keep her main cannon which is a 127mm cannon (this one cannot function as CIWS), that's IMO why Barbaros got Gökdeniz CIWS on the front.

So the MAR-D is actually part of the Gökdeniz target acquisition / tracking. But I have still no satisfactory answer on why the Barbaros has a second mast with MAR-D placed high and with I-class this is not the case.



Second strange issue I find the choice of Phalanx at the rear of the ship, why not a Gökdeniz there too?

 

[Turko]

We might be little bit puzzled but check this out.

 

[Nutuk]

check what exactly?

 

[Turko]

check what exactly?

The location of MAR-D and AKR. Anyway it's not big issue.

 

[Anmdt]

As far as I know I-class is to get the super Rapid 76mm with possible the dart / strales munition (so the main cannon will function as CIWS)

Has there been orders on DART munition and upgrade of SR with DART compatible feed mechanism? If it is so, then this would make sense. But since main gun is linked to an FCR, that would mean an FCR would have been occupied for CIWS (not standalone like Gökdeniz or Phalanx with its own FCR).
SR is capable of engaging moving and aerial targets and even more accurately after TAKS upgrade ,but i doubt if this will be sufficient for CIWS

Second strange issue I find the choice of Phalanx at the rear of the ship, why not a Gökdeniz there too?

People tend to interpret this as Gökdeniz being inferior and not relied on by Navy, but i think this is not valid and it is rather related to what is avaliable in stock or on space of the vessel (like Deck strength above Hangar)

 

[neosinan]

Pakistan asked for cooperation in The military Submarine project. Imho, This might end Milden project's budgetary constraints and We might make the first steel cutting ceremony before All the Reis class subs enters service. Thus, We can regain the time We lost in Reis class project.

Çavuşoğlu: "Pakistan denizaltı için işbirliği istedi"

Dışişleri Bakanı Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu "Pakistan'la MİLGEM denizaltısı başta olmak üzere savunma işbirlikleri artacak" dedi.

savunmasanayiidergilik.com

 

[Anmdt]

Kapansın El Kapıları Bir Daha Açılmasın

2015'de Barbaros - Salih Reis Sınıfı dört fırkateyn hakkında yarı-ömür yenilmesi yapılacağı açıklandı

alarga.uskudar.biz

Uskudar's new writing on CIWS systems used on Barbaros-class

Quick Translation

20mm / 25mm

Barbaros-class modernization includes replacing 3 Sea Zenith with 1 Gökdeniz and 1 Phalanx

Using two different systems for CIWS can be considered problematic and thinking it can be a alternative to Sea Zenith would be optimistic.

The reason Navy wanting to replace Sea Zenith is because inability to integrate it with other electronics, software and very high price of replacement parts rather than issues against neutralizing targets.

Phalanx uses 20x102mm kinetic energy ammunition for anti-missile.

Depleted uranium based MK149 Mod 2 was replaced with Tungsten based Mod 4 ammunition due to risks. Current ammo type that is used by Phalanx for anti-missile roles is MK244 Mod 0 APDS.

Sea Zenith uses Tungsten based 25x148mm AMDS ammo for anti-missile.

View attachment 11222
Energy density of the anti-missile ammos over distance

Energy of Sea Zenith ammunition is enough to completely get rid of the missile threat while energy of Phalanx ammo is only enough to damage. For example, if a anti-ship missile gains ballistic momentum, Phalanx might not be able to stop it depending on damage level on the missile and where the missiles location.

Conclusion:

1) Phalanx is not enough the meet the needs of Turkish Navy, even if it were to be given for free it should be nationalized as it is the last defense against threats

2) Country like Turkey needs much bigger Navy, because of this there should be no dependence systems such as this.

3) Gökdeniz might be a capable solution, if not it should be under development

It is inaccurate to compare two CIWS rounds based on their kinetic energies at certain distances and claiming Phalanx is not carrying enough energy to pierce through warhead of an anti-ship missile.
There is something called dispersion, rate of fire which ensures certain amounts of rounds are engaging the target
If Phalanx was ineffective we wouldn't have been seeing it on US warships at first place.
Zenith is aged, sensors are out of the date, the best way to use from this point on as only remote control weapons. And it was spoken in earlier posts why Phalanx was probably chosen for above the hangar.

Pakistan asked for cooperation in The military Submarine project. Imho, This might end Milden project's budgetary constraints and We might make the first steel cutting ceremony before All the Reis class subs enters service. Thus, We can regain the time We lost in Reis class project.

Çavuşoğlu: "Pakistan denizaltı için işbirliği istedi"

Dışişleri Bakanı Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu "Pakistan'la MİLGEM denizaltısı başta olmak üzere savunma işbirlikleri artacak" dedi.

savunmasanayiidergilik.com

TS1700 Maybe, Milden No.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Pakistan asked for cooperation in The military Submarine project. Imho, This might end Milden project's budgetary constraints and We might make the first steel cutting ceremony before All the Reis class subs enters service. Thus, We can regain the time We lost in Reis class project.

Çavuşoğlu: "Pakistan denizaltı için işbirliği istedi"

Dışişleri Bakanı Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu "Pakistan'la MİLGEM denizaltısı başta olmak üzere savunma işbirlikleri artacak" dedi.

savunmasanayiidergilik.com

4 Milgem-P program
Agosta submarine upgrade deal
Fleet Replenishment tankers

and now, Pakistan and Turkey will work on joint submarine program If a deal related with this program is signed. The relations between two brother states are proceeding very good direction in Naval product cooperations.

 

[the]

Pakistan: Foreign reserves and the debt crisis

Abid Rehman (National University of Sciences and Technology, Islamabad) and Kinza Tahir (National University of Modern Languages, Islamabad) argue that in order to reduce external debt, Pakistan sh…

blogs.lse.ac.uk

You can't seriously expect Pakistan to cover any budget problems?
If they did, it would be China's money and therefore, China's tech.

 

[what]

Pakistan: Foreign reserves and the debt crisis

Abid Rehman (National University of Sciences and Technology, Islamabad) and Kinza Tahir (National University of Modern Languages, Islamabad) argue that in order to reduce external debt, Pakistan sh…

blogs.lse.ac.uk

You can't seriously expect Pakistan to cover any budget problems?
If they did, it would be China's money and therefore, China's tech.

It's a big and fast growing economy. Maybe one day we will be in a situation to give loans to finance the projects sold abroad. But in the meantime I hope they find a way. I mean Pakistan is buying Milgems and wants ATAKs without any loans from us, so certainly there are funds to be spend.

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiDuaCA4qDuAhXqQEEAHfG9ApkQwqsBMAB6BAgDEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4TzWX2uHfHI&usg=AOvVaw2WqhROXjLF82PcEoAr3g57

I am hearing that , I-Class frigate launching planned for 17th January is delayed further to 24th January.
Let us hope no more delays.
We can not really afford to keep delaying these ships.

 

[Nutuk]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiDuaCA4qDuAhXqQEEAHfG9ApkQwqsBMAB6BAgDEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4TzWX2uHfHI&usg=AOvVaw2WqhROXjLF82PcEoAr3g57

I am hearing that , I-Class frigate launching planned for 17th January is delayed further to 24th January.
Let us hope no more delays.
We can not really afford to keep delaying these ships.

Obviously a political delay because a big shot cannot attend the ceremonial, not a technical delay

 

[Anmdt]

Obviously a political delay because a big shot cannot attend the ceremonial, not a technical delay

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiDuaCA4qDuAhXqQEEAHfG9ApkQwqsBMAB6BAgDEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4TzWX2uHfHI&usg=AOvVaw2WqhROXjLF82PcEoAr3g57

I am hearing that , I-Class frigate launching planned for 17th January is delayed further to 24th January.
Let us hope no more delays.
We can not really afford to keep delaying these ships.

TCG İSTANBUL, 24 Ocak’ta denize indirilecek

İstif (İ) sınıfı fırkateynlerin ilki olan TCG İSTANBUL, 24 Ocak 2021 tarihinde deniz indirilecek.

www.denizhaber.net

The date was probably 24th January for a while, just someone kept circulating old news of 17th January.
Also should be noted, weather is not favorable on 17th January,

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350713032394076169

It seems Pakistan wants to join Milden, not STM1700 design. Pakistan as the main costumer of Turkish big scale military products, This request is not a surprise for anybody. I belive they will be the first costumer of Tf2000 in mid term as well. Turkish and Pakistani naval forces will expand the cooperation with these programs.

 

[Anmdt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350713032394076169

It seems Pakistan wants to join Milden, not STM1700 design. Pakistan as the main costumer of Turkish big scale military products, This request is not a surprise for anybody. I belive they will be the first costumer of Tf2000 in mid term as well. Turkish and Pakistani naval forces will expand the cooperation with these programs.

It is rather told as "Submarine project", in the news, cavusoglu has misspelled as "milgem submarine", might indicate he or his advisors, or the person who made the request was misinformed. Drop a word and see it is circulating and echoing in social media, and slowly everyone admitting and making news about that.

What i hear from the shipyard that TN doesn't desire to share tech and capabilities regarding to what will be developed through Milden project and there isn't any issues in finances. However, they are open-willing to provide assistance to foreign countries in construction or design stage.

Also Pakistan,to be honest, don't have capabilities or tech- know/how to contribute to the project especially for what TN is aiming and requiring from designers. It wouldn't make sense to have a partner just for finances in one of the most critical projects of TR and share technical knowledge in return under name of " brotherhood".

Also such a collaboration will adversely affect other foreign (western) partnerships and subcontractors which has or going to have major-minor contributions to the project.

Çavuşoğlu: Pakistan denizaltı için işbirliği istedi | Video

Son Dakika Türkiye Gündem Haberleri - Dışişleri Bakanı Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, Pakistan dönüşü gazetecilere konuştu. Pakistan'la MİLGEM denizaltısı başta olmak üze...

www.cnnturk.com

Probably Pakistan has requested a partnership (rather, an assistance) on a submarine project -procurement (might even be a midget submarine), cavusoglu or his advisors have misinterpreted this as Milden project, TS1700 is only what SSB/TN would desire to share and what would make sense to be shared in return of joint finance (like some other projects). Moreover they have purchased 3600 tonnes submarine from China along with ToT. In terms of costs and financing they will tend to add more Chinese platforms for large submarines, what is left; light (1500-2000) or midget submarines, for the latter STM was interested and even worked on sketches and initial design.

 

[Bogeyman]

It is rather told as "Submarine project", in the news, cavusoglu has misspelled as "milgem submarine", might indicate he or his advisors, or the person who made the request was misinformed. Drop a word and see it is circulating and echoing in social media, and slowly everyone admitting and making news about that.

What i hear from the shipyard that TN doesn't desire to share tech and capabilities regarding to what will be developed through Milden project and there isn't any issues in finances. However, they are open-willing to provide assistance to foreign countries in construction or design stage.

Also Pakistan,to be honest, don't have capabilities or tech- know/how to contribute to the project especially for what TN is aiming and requiring from designers. It wouldn't make sense to have a partner just for finances in one of the most critical projects of TR and share technical knowledge in return under name of " brotherhood".

Also such a collaboration will adversely affect other foreign (western) partnerships and subcontractors which has or going to have major-minor contributions to the project.

Çavuşoğlu: Pakistan denizaltı için işbirliği istedi | Video

Son Dakika Türkiye Gündem Haberleri - Dışişleri Bakanı Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, Pakistan dönüşü gazetecilere konuştu. Pakistan'la MİLGEM denizaltısı başta olmak üze...

www.cnnturk.com

Probably Pakistan has requested a partnership (rather, an assistance) on a submarine project -procurement (might even be a midget submarine), cavusoglu or his advisors have misinterpreted this as Milden project, TS1700 is only what SSB/TN would desire to share and what would make sense to be shared in return of joint finance (like some other projects). Moreover they have purchased 3600 tonnes submarine from China along with ToT. In terms of costs and financing they will tend to add more Chinese platforms for large submarines, what is left; light (1500-2000) or midget submarines, for the latter STM was interested and even worked on sketches and initial design.

Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said they just wanted to cooperate with us in the submarine project. This can mean many things. It's a very vague expression. Those who watch the video of the interview can see it.

Çavuşoğlu: Pakistan denizaltı için işbirliği istedi | Video

Son Dakika Türkiye Gündem Haberleri - Dışişleri Bakanı Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, Pakistan dönüşü gazetecilere konuştu. Pakistan'la MİLGEM denizaltısı başta olmak üze...

www.cnnturk.com

 

[yakusha]

Developments in the Turkish Naval Forces Command in 2021

Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri ve 2021 Gelişmeleri | SavunmaSanayiST

Türk Savunma Sanayii, Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri için uzun yıllardır verdiği çabanın meyvelerini, 2021 yılından itibaren daha belirgin bir şekilde almaya başlayacak.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[Bogeyman]

Tübitak is developing the Ship Magnetic Track Suppression System for countermeasure for marine mines triggered by magnetic tracks. The system will be used for the first time in Jinnah class frigates and İstif class frigates produced for Pakistan.

Bilim ve Teknolojiyle Dolu Bir Yıl 2020 | TÜBİTAK MARMARA ARAŞTIRMA MERKEZİ

Kurulduğu 1963 yılından bu yana bilim ve teknolojinin mihmandarlığında, ülkemizin teknolojik bağımsızlığının desteklenmesini sağlamak, kendi teknolojisini geliştirmesine ve teknoloji tabanlı ürünlerin üretilmesine katkı vermek amacıyla yenilikçi, katılımcı ve paylaşımcı bir kurum olma...

mam.tubitak.gov.tr

 

[Anmdt]

Tübitak is developing the Ship Magnetic Track Suppression System for countermeasure for marine mines triggered by magnetic tracks. The system will be used for the first time in Jinnah class frigates and İstif class frigates produced for Pakistan.

Bilim ve Teknolojiyle Dolu Bir Yıl 2020 | TÜBİTAK MARMARA ARAŞTIRMA MERKEZİ

Kurulduğu 1963 yılından bu yana bilim ve teknolojinin mihmandarlığında, ülkemizin teknolojik bağımsızlığının desteklenmesini sağlamak, kendi teknolojisini geliştirmesine ve teknoloji tabanlı ürünlerin üretilmesine katkı vermek amacıyla yenilikçi, katılımcı ve paylaşımcı bir kurum olma...

mam.tubitak.gov.tr

PAKİSTAN Milli Gemi Projesi kapsamında teslim edilecek olan 4 adet Gemi Manyetik İz Bastırma Sistemi için tasarım çalışmaları devam ediyor. Bu sistemler manyetik iz ile tetiklenen mayın sistemlerine yönelik “karşı tedbir” olarak kullanılmaktadır. Fırkateyn sınıfı olarak öngörülen MİLGEM 5. Geminin Manyetik İz Bastırma Sistemi için geliştirme çalışmaları sürüyor.

Deniz Harp Okulu-MİLGEM

It is not going to be used first time in these ships, it is already present in Ada class and going to be adapted for different hulls.
Such a system is customized according to characteristics of each vessel.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Deniz Kuvvetletinin özgün savaş gemisi inşa programı kapsamında, Ada Sınıfı 4 Korvetin arkasından projelendirilen ‘İ’ (İstif) sınıfı Fırkateynlerin birincisi olan İSTANBUL Fırkateyni 23 OCAK 2021 Cumartesi günü DzKK lığı İstanbul Tersanesinde denize indirilecektir.

Turkish Navy’s indigenously built I class frigate will be launched on Saturday 23rd.