TR Naval Programs

[Anmdt]

Next to the plain number of shipyards, personnel experience and expertise is needed to be able to build such a ship. I remember discussing this a lot.

Actually this is the bottleneck. (Subcontractors).

 

[Anmdt]

A few shipyards are left. Is Besiktas shipyard or Gemak able to build TF-2000? @Anmdt

afaik, neither of them are interested in new builds or naval ships. I have to be honest about this; naval ships have more give than take with a lot of risk involved. This is another reason why the 3 I class was given to STM&TAIS and not to TAIS alone, or why TAIS exists as a consortium.

I can explain this by saying that it is not practical to give a shipyard a design package and tell them to "build and organise the integration procedures", because first of all the shipyard agrees to deliver a product that meets the requirements, but since the design is provided from outside (as in the case of I Class, and as will be the case for TF2000) the shipyard agrees to some conditions that they are not sure they can achieve (as happened with DIMDEG). Therefore the first ship or ships (for large, expensive platforms than can easily make a shipyard go bankrupt) is either first built at the shipyard or entirely handled by the shipyard so they can bear their of failure (or make someone accountable, since you may not make SSB or TN accountable that easily). Note that this was partly why Selah Shipyard went bankrupt and was then taken over by Ada Shipyard.

Also TN has a mindset that "if its built in Naval Shipyard, by our design and field team, we will bear any deficiency or improve it by our own resources, otherwise we will induce penalties for any deficiency, we can bear and admit our own mistakes, not others running for profit.

Speaking of the schedule for 4 new I-class, we can assume that these will also be built by STM&TAIS, or ASFAT&TAIS, depending on who is contracted to provide design and project management services for the I+ class. Pendik Naval Shipyard can take half of the follow-on OPV orders (it was announced as 10, so they can handle 4 more) and then start building the 1st hull of TF2000. The remaining 3 TF2000 will be given to STM-ASFAT&TAIS, again after the I+ class. This sounds like a feasible and continuous set of projects.

For the size and complexity of TF2000, it can be handled by the following private shipyards; SEDEF, Sefine whereas doubting ADIK because of the slipway and crane limitations and they can still be in the consortium to provide blocks, personnel, etc.

Istanbul Shipyard (not to be confused with Pendik Naval Shipyard which is also referred to as Istanbul Naval Shipyard Command), has also built several auxiliaries and TCG Ufuk, a hull similar to Ada, therefore they may also take part in the construction of the 4 OPVs, remnant of what ASFAT may not be able to handle. Dearsan, Istanbul Shipyard, RMK, may take these.

Current list of shipyards that may handle projects mentioned in SSIK, along with Pendik Naval Shipyard;

• İzmir Naval Shipyard (mentioned several times, but lack of investment and commitment, spared as minor upgrades and repair yard for several platforms)
• Ada (acquired Selah) Shipyard
• Desan
• Dearsan
• Sedef
• RMK
• Istanbul Shipyard
• ADIK (TAIS)
• SEDEF (TAIS)
• Sefine (TAIS)
• Yonca (intends to start steel-aluminium production)
• Ares (has intentions to start steel-aluminium production)

 

[uçuyorum]

I hope we have a goal to work towards integrated electric propulsion. This is particularly important for TF2000 with so much power draw from Çafrad. I know Hisar OPV have electric propulsion but not sure if its integrated on the hole. I've heard TCG İstanbul is having limitations due to Cenk-s being very power hungry, it would be worse on TF2000. Plus this would make us less reliant on imported complex transmission systems.

 

[Oublious]

I hope we have a goal to work towards integrated electric propulsion. This is particularly important for TF2000 with so much power draw from Çafrad. I know Hisar OPV have electric propulsion but not sure if its integrated on the hole. I've heard TCG İstanbul is having limitations due to Cenk-s being very power hungry, it would be worse on TF2000. Plus this would make us less reliant on imported complex transmission systems.

I-class have LM-2500 gas turbine engine and with that you can give a big village electricity.

 

[uçuyorum]

I-class have LM-2500 gas turbine engine and with that you can give a big village electricity.

But is it connected to the grid

 

[dBSPL]

- Approximately 10-15 private shipyards with high technological quality, civilian/semi-civilian purposes, and significant experience in the integration of modern propulsion systems.

- 3-5 shipyards with missile boat building capacity, specializing in marine composite hulls (these shipyards are also investing significantly in unmanned systems), and 6-7 private shipyards in total with significant experience in patrol boats, fast deployment and missile boats in general.

- 4-5 private shipyards (+ ASFAT's shipyards) that have reached frigate building and equipping capacity.

- At least the same number of private shipyards specializing in the production of ships for various special purpose, mine hunting, landing and logistics purposes.

- Pendik Shipyard command and one backup private shipyard capable of drydocking hulls over 250 meters and close to/attaining LHA/LAC/AC production capacity.

- Gölcük shipyard capable of producing submarines with air independent propulsion and at least 1 private shipyard capable of producing special purpose submarines in coastal/unmanned classes.

This means an average of 15 shipyards, around 200 subsystem suppliers and subcontractors, and 15/20 thousand qualified labor force. The naval forces' breakthrough directly translates into the next big leap for the Turkish shipbuilding industry.

By the mid-2030s, when Turkiye feels threatened by an inevitable war, it could reach a production capacity equal to the total collective production capacity of Western Europe, to the extent its economy allows.

The Turkish shipbuilding industry was largely built on the towing yards, repair piers and small businesses mostly working on coasters, which were moved from the Golden Horn to Tuzla in 1981. This fragmented structure has been criticized in the past. Tuzla's economy has grown over the years to become probably one of the most complex shipyard districts in the world. As a result, the entire Gulf of Izmit has become a shipbuilding center especially after investments in the Altınova region. Canakkale, Kastamonu, Izmir, Antalya, and a few other regions, but this is the driving force of Turkish maritime.

As the shipyards that 30-40 years ago worked on cutting and lengthening river ships have become world-class enterprises one by one, a tremendous collective power has started to emerge. If we can harness this power, one of the three main pillars required for the Turkish navy to expand, and even beyond that to become a global navy, will be firmly in place.

As an additional note: Çamburnu, which will be located adjacent to the naval base in Sürmene and which currently has significant idle capacity, should be completely transferred to ASFAT. There is a considerable shipbuilding culture in this region and therefore a skilled workforce. (This is also one of the most distant corners, if you looking from west) It can be one of the important maintenance bases of the navy, even if not for equipping activities. We need to lighten the burden of the Pendik shipyard as much as possible. In this context, the value of the recent investments in the Alaybey shipyard is better understood.

 

[Oublious]

But is it connected to the grid

LM can give 29000kw power in different ships. What it gives to I-class is i don't now.

 

[uçuyorum]

LM can give 29000kw power in different ships. What it gives to I-class is i don't now.

The difference here is if engine is connected to a mechanical gearbox, then the energy is transferred mechanically and if the turbine has an alternator it might provide a fraction of its power to ships grid, but ship likely uses other dedicated generators for main electricity generation. If you have electric propulsion instead of transmission you convert all power to electricity and electric driven propeller is used instead. If you connect rest of ships electrical system to the one used for propulsion then all of the electricity is available to every system. Zumwalt class famously had this. Now I've heard İstanbul has power limitations on other systems due to high power draw of cenk s, I don't exactly know if its due to cabling and what not or actual lack of power from generators.

 

[uçuyorum]

FREMM uses Rotating KRONOS NAVAL. Yet it doesn't require illumination radar to guide ASTER interceptors afaik.

Apparently this also has 60 rpm rotation speed, for Smart-S MK2 that's 27 rpm in air defence mode. This should reduce the duration of blind spots significantly. Cenk-S is listed at 30 rpm, don't know if that is its maximum or regular mode.

 

[Sanchez]

Excerpt from "A REVIEW OF FRANCE'S NEW GENERATION BARRACUDA CLASS NUCLEAR-PROPELLED SUBMARINES (SSN)" in DzKK official gazette January 2024 issue

"With the recent commissioning of the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant, Turkey will take its place among the countries using nuclear energy. Subsequently, it is foreseen that knowledge and experience in nuclear energy in all sectors, both civilian and military, will increase in a short period of time and this energy will be integrated into new capacity building areas.

In addition, the introduction of nuclear technology in Turkey is also a turning point for the planned national nuclear-powered submarine programme in the medium term. It is inevitable that the transition to nuclear-propelled submarines will lead to critical developments for the Turkish Naval Forces.

In particular, the indigenous heavy torpedo AKYA and the submarine-launched ATMACA G/M will add strength to the power of our submarines, and with the acquisition of long-range GEZGİN cruise missile capability by our nuclear submarines, our submarines will become one of the most effective weapons in the world.

In the process of transition to nuclear energy, considering our limited knowledge and experience in the field, it is considered that there are various issues that need to be taken into consideration for our Naval Forces. Apart from the operation and maintenance of the nuclear reactor, which is a highly technical issue, it is important that projects in line with our concept of submarine utilisation and preliminary preparations for the training of submariner personnel be initiated now. Thus, the foresighted plans to be made as early as the project design phase will provide guidance in solving problems before they arise."

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/Content/Upload/Docs/Ocak_2024_Dergi.pdf

 

[UkroTurk]

Apparently this also has 60 rpm rotation speed, for Smart-S MK2 that's 27 rpm in air defence mode. This should reduce the duration of blind spots significantly. Cenk-S is listed at 30 rpm, don't know if that is its maximum or regular mode.

So additional 4 x ARDA could solve all problem, even with the Cenk-S.

 

[UkroTurk]

Excerpt from "A REVIEW OF FRANCE'S NEW GENERATION BARRACUDA CLASS NUCLEAR-PROPELLED SUBMARINES (SSN)" in DzKK official gazette January 2024 issue

"With the recent commissioning of the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant, Turkey will take its place among the countries using nuclear energy. Subsequently, it is foreseen that knowledge and experience in nuclear energy in all sectors, both civilian and military, will increase in a short period of time and this energy will be integrated into new capacity building areas.

In addition, the introduction of nuclear technology in Turkey is also a turning point for the planned national nuclear-powered submarine programme in the medium term. It is inevitable that the transition to nuclear-propelled submarines will lead to critical developments for the Turkish Naval Forces.

In particular, the indigenous heavy torpedo AKYA and the submarine-launched ATMACA G/M will add strength to the power of our submarines, and with the acquisition of long-range GEZGİN cruise missile capability by our nuclear submarines, our submarines will become one of the most effective weapons in the world.

In the process of transition to nuclear energy, considering our limited knowledge and experience in the field, it is considered that there are various issues that need to be taken into consideration for our Naval Forces. Apart from the operation and maintenance of the nuclear reactor, which is a highly technical issue, it is important that projects in line with our concept of submarine utilisation and preliminary preparations for the training of submariner personnel be initiated now. Thus, the foresighted plans to be made as early as the project design phase will provide guidance in solving problems before they arise."

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/Content/Upload/Docs/Ocak_2024_Dergi.pdf

They are underwater and surface vehicles that have revolutionized submarine navigation and opened the door to a new era.
They have become a favorite of the intelligence services as well as the armed forces, having gotten rid of the disadvantages of most submarines used in the Second World War.

Diesel submarines have the limited underwater maneuvering capabilities

Thanks to the reactor, it has become borderless. They can charge their batteries under water so They can be silence just using batteries in missions.

they are weapons that can stay under water for months and carry out either observation or strategic conventional attacks in the desired region without the enemy noticing themselves.

That's what we need.

 

[Anmdt]

Excerpt from "A REVIEW OF FRANCE'S NEW GENERATION BARRACUDA CLASS NUCLEAR-PROPELLED SUBMARINES (SSN)" in DzKK official gazette January 2024 issue

"With the recent commissioning of the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant, Turkey will take its place among the countries using nuclear energy. Subsequently, it is foreseen that knowledge and experience in nuclear energy in all sectors, both civilian and military, will increase in a short period of time and this energy will be integrated into new capacity building areas.

In addition, the introduction of nuclear technology in Turkey is also a turning point for the planned national nuclear-powered submarine programme in the medium term. It is inevitable that the transition to nuclear-propelled submarines will lead to critical developments for the Turkish Naval Forces.

In particular, the indigenous heavy torpedo AKYA and the submarine-launched ATMACA G/M will add strength to the power of our submarines, and with the acquisition of long-range GEZGİN cruise missile capability by our nuclear submarines, our submarines will become one of the most effective weapons in the world.

In the process of transition to nuclear energy, considering our limited knowledge and experience in the field, it is considered that there are various issues that need to be taken into consideration for our Naval Forces. Apart from the operation and maintenance of the nuclear reactor, which is a highly technical issue, it is important that projects in line with our concept of submarine utilisation and preliminary preparations for the training of submariner personnel be initiated now. Thus, the foresighted plans to be made as early as the project design phase will provide guidance in solving problems before they arise."

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/Content/Upload/Docs/Ocak_2024_Dergi.pdf

Man, the Navy plans something from the 90s and then implements it years later. They talked about ACs and nuclear submarines in the 2000s in closed circles and now they are saying it out loud. It is certainly an admirable set of plans.

 

[Sanchez]

Man, the Navy plans something from the 90s and then implements it years later. They talked about ACs and nuclear submarines in the 2000s in closed circles and now they are saying it out loud. It is certainly an admirable set of plans.

Army and Air Force: Is it possible to learn this power?

 

[Anmdt]

Army and Air Force: Is it possible to learn this power?

They need to be, or they would need to stop complaining when SSIK doesn't favour them.

Diesel submarines have the limited underwater maneuvering capabilities

Manoeuvrability does not depend on the type of propulsion used or how it's used. Almost all submarines have similar degrees of manoeuvrability (since they prioritise high motion stability over manoeuvrability). Nuclear propulsion basically gives unrestricted range and high speed.

Apparently this also has 60 rpm rotation speed, for Smart-S MK2 that's 27 rpm in air defence mode. This should reduce the duration of blind spots significantly. Cenk-S is listed at 30 rpm, don't know if that is its maximum or regular mode.

I believe CENK may prioritise certain targets to get "faster" updates on them, less than what an RPM indicates, as it has 2-axis AESA scanning capability.

 

[Anmdt]

I hope we have a goal to work towards integrated electric propulsion. This is particularly important for TF2000 with so much power draw from Çafrad. I know Hisar OPV have electric propulsion but not sure if its integrated on the hole. I've heard TCG İstanbul is having limitations due to Cenk-s being very power hungry, it would be worse on TF2000. Plus this would make us less reliant on imported complex transmission systems.

This is actually not a difficult business (as in the manufacture and operation of a marine diesel engine / gas turbine) that Aselsan or any other Babayiğit can take on such a project and outsource the engines and other mechanical propulsion units. But doing so is no easy matter. I personally favour IEP for TF2000 also with NAZAR DIRCM and what will come next in this category, but we should be aware that it may not be easy to manage the whole electrical distribution through a common point (account in for zonal distribution systems, redundancy etc.).

 

[uçuyorum]

They need to be, or they would need to stop complaining when SSIK doesn't favour them.


Manoeuvrability does not depend on the type of propulsion used or how it's used. Almost all submarines have similar degrees of manoeuvrability (since they prioritise high motion stability over manoeuvrability). Nuclear propulsion basically gives unrestricted range and high speed.


I believe CENK may prioritise certain targets to get "faster" updates on them, less than what an RPM indicates, as it has 2-axis AESA scanning capability.

If its 30 rpm and if maximum steering angle of a transceiver module is 120 degrees, you still have 1.333 second of a target being in blind spot of CENK.

Although important to note is Advent should share data between ships so them so working in groups may cover for each others' blind spots

 

[UkroTurk]

If its 30 rpm and if maximum steering angle of a transceiver module is 120 degrees, you still have 1.333 second of a target being in blind spot of CENK.

Although important to note is Advent should share data between ships so them so working in groups may cover for each others' blind spots

What if making two faced radar antenna? -Front face Cenk-S and back face compact MAR-D- rotating together?

CENK-S for long range High altitude Air search, Mar-D for close range, low altitude surface control.

You also could switch between two of them. You wouldn't waste lifespan of your long range expensive CENK-S while working MAR-D-.

Skip to 3:20

 

[TheInsider]

Cenk-S+ ÇAFRAD ÇFR X-Band
This is a good compromise between a full ÇAFRAD suite and Cenk-S+Mar-D

 

[Anmdt]

If its 30 rpm and if maximum steering angle of a transceiver module is 120 degrees, you still have 1.333 second of a target being in blind spot of CENK.

Although important to note is Advent should share data between ships so them so working in groups may cover for each others' blind spots

AKREP FCR exists for a reason. It can 'stare' in a sector and track the target without mechanical interruption. The overall performance here relies on Advent and the radar signature library to detect, classify and pass to fire control, tracking radars by assigning them accordingly.

View attachment 64616
So additional 4 x ARDA could solve all problem, even with the Cenk-S.

Speaking of which, ARDA and CAFRAD CFR may be similar in architecture, but CFR is backed by better processing power and more T/R, better hardware. Nevertheless, 4x ARDA would be very useful as a secondary radar, providing 360° coverage and continuous tracking in any sector. The question now is whether we can omit the AKREP and put 2 x ARDA in each spot to make up for the 360 degrees. Would 2 x ARDA be good enough for tracking?