TR Navy Naval Programs

[Anmdt]

Excerpt from "A REVIEW OF FRANCE'S NEW GENERATION BARRACUDA CLASS NUCLEAR-PROPELLED SUBMARINES (SSN)" in DzKK official gazette January 2024 issue

"With the recent commissioning of the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant, Turkey will take its place among the countries using nuclear energy. Subsequently, it is foreseen that knowledge and experience in nuclear energy in all sectors, both civilian and military, will increase in a short period of time and this energy will be integrated into new capacity building areas.

In addition, the introduction of nuclear technology in Turkey is also a turning point for the planned national nuclear-powered submarine programme in the medium term. It is inevitable that the transition to nuclear-propelled submarines will lead to critical developments for the Turkish Naval Forces.

In particular, the indigenous heavy torpedo AKYA and the submarine-launched ATMACA G/M will add strength to the power of our submarines, and with the acquisition of long-range GEZGİN cruise missile capability by our nuclear submarines, our submarines will become one of the most effective weapons in the world.

In the process of transition to nuclear energy, considering our limited knowledge and experience in the field, it is considered that there are various issues that need to be taken into consideration for our Naval Forces. Apart from the operation and maintenance of the nuclear reactor, which is a highly technical issue, it is important that projects in line with our concept of submarine utilisation and preliminary preparations for the training of submariner personnel be initiated now. Thus, the foresighted plans to be made as early as the project design phase will provide guidance in solving problems before they arise."

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/Content/Upload/Docs/Ocak_2024_Dergi.pdf

Man, the Navy plans something from the 90s and then implements it years later. They talked about ACs and nuclear submarines in the 2000s in closed circles and now they are saying it out loud. It is certainly an admirable set of plans.

 

[Sanchez]

Man, the Navy plans something from the 90s and then implements it years later. They talked about ACs and nuclear submarines in the 2000s in closed circles and now they are saying it out loud. It is certainly an admirable set of plans.

Army and Air Force: Is it possible to learn this power?

 

[Anmdt]

Army and Air Force: Is it possible to learn this power?

They need to be, or they would need to stop complaining when SSIK doesn't favour them.

Diesel submarines have the limited underwater maneuvering capabilities

Manoeuvrability does not depend on the type of propulsion used or how it's used. Almost all submarines have similar degrees of manoeuvrability (since they prioritise high motion stability over manoeuvrability). Nuclear propulsion basically gives unrestricted range and high speed.

Apparently this also has 60 rpm rotation speed, for Smart-S MK2 that's 27 rpm in air defence mode. This should reduce the duration of blind spots significantly. Cenk-S is listed at 30 rpm, don't know if that is its maximum or regular mode.

I believe CENK may prioritise certain targets to get "faster" updates on them, less than what an RPM indicates, as it has 2-axis AESA scanning capability.

 

[Anmdt]

I hope we have a goal to work towards integrated electric propulsion. This is particularly important for TF2000 with so much power draw from Çafrad. I know Hisar OPV have electric propulsion but not sure if its integrated on the hole. I've heard TCG İstanbul is having limitations due to Cenk-s being very power hungry, it would be worse on TF2000. Plus this would make us less reliant on imported complex transmission systems.

This is actually not a difficult business (as in the manufacture and operation of a marine diesel engine / gas turbine) that Aselsan or any other Babayiğit can take on such a project and outsource the engines and other mechanical propulsion units. But doing so is no easy matter. I personally favour IEP for TF2000 also with NAZAR DIRCM and what will come next in this category, but we should be aware that it may not be easy to manage the whole electrical distribution through a common point (account in for zonal distribution systems, redundancy etc.).

 

[uçuyorum]

They need to be, or they would need to stop complaining when SSIK doesn't favour them.


Manoeuvrability does not depend on the type of propulsion used or how it's used. Almost all submarines have similar degrees of manoeuvrability (since they prioritise high motion stability over manoeuvrability). Nuclear propulsion basically gives unrestricted range and high speed.


I believe CENK may prioritise certain targets to get "faster" updates on them, less than what an RPM indicates, as it has 2-axis AESA scanning capability.

If its 30 rpm and if maximum steering angle of a transceiver module is 120 degrees, you still have 1.333 second of a target being in blind spot of CENK.

Although important to note is Advent should share data between ships so them so working in groups may cover for each others' blind spots

 

[UkroTurk]

If its 30 rpm and if maximum steering angle of a transceiver module is 120 degrees, you still have 1.333 second of a target being in blind spot of CENK.

Although important to note is Advent should share data between ships so them so working in groups may cover for each others' blind spots

What if making two faced radar antenna? -Front face Cenk-S and back face compact MAR-D- rotating together?

CENK-S for long range High altitude Air search, Mar-D for close range, low altitude surface control.

You also could switch between two of them. You wouldn't waste lifespan of your long range expensive CENK-S while working MAR-D-.

Skip to 3:20

 

[TheInsider]

Cenk-S+ ÇAFRAD ÇFR X-Band
This is a good compromise between a full ÇAFRAD suite and Cenk-S+Mar-D

 

[Anmdt]

If its 30 rpm and if maximum steering angle of a transceiver module is 120 degrees, you still have 1.333 second of a target being in blind spot of CENK.

Although important to note is Advent should share data between ships so them so working in groups may cover for each others' blind spots

AKREP FCR exists for a reason. It can 'stare' in a sector and track the target without mechanical interruption. The overall performance here relies on Advent and the radar signature library to detect, classify and pass to fire control, tracking radars by assigning them accordingly.

View attachment 64616
So additional 4 x ARDA could solve all problem, even with the Cenk-S.

Speaking of which, ARDA and CAFRAD CFR may be similar in architecture, but CFR is backed by better processing power and more T/R, better hardware. Nevertheless, 4x ARDA would be very useful as a secondary radar, providing 360° coverage and continuous tracking in any sector. The question now is whether we can omit the AKREP and put 2 x ARDA in each spot to make up for the 360 degrees. Would 2 x ARDA be good enough for tracking?

 

[Bogeyman]

What if making two faced radar antenna? -Front face Cenk-S and back face compact MAR-D- rotating together?

CENK-S for long range High altitude Air search, Mar-D for close range, low altitude surface control.

You also could switch between two of them. You wouldn't waste lifespan of your long range expensive CENK-S while working MAR-D-.
View attachment 64617

Skip to 3:20

I doubt we can generate the electricity needed for this on board.

 

[uçuyorum]

AKREP FCR exists for a reason. It can 'stare' in a sector and track the target without mechanical interruption. The overall performance here relies on Advent and the radar signature library to detect, classify and pass to fire control, tracking radars by assigning them accordingly.


Speaking of which, ARDA and CAFRAD CFR may be similar in architecture, but CFR is backed by better processing power and more T/R, better hardware. Nevertheless, 4x ARDA would be very useful as a secondary radar, providing 360° coverage and continuous tracking in any sector. The question now is whether we can omit the AKREP and put 2 x ARDA in each spot to make up for the 360 degrees. Would 2 x ARDA be good enough for tracking?

How many targets can Akrep follow though? Granted, with 16 missiles You can't engage too many targets anyways. But if it gets 64 Sapan Blok 2 it may be more relevant

 

[Bogeyman]

I doubt we can generate the electricity needed for this on board.

A ship does not constantly operate its radars or electronic warfare suite at 100% capacity. Therefore, the electricity need in times of crisis is not the same as the electricity need in normal times. When intense electronic warfare is used, the ship may run out of fuel in a short time. (I don't remember this issue exactly in my memories, but I remember a few sample cases like this) Therefore, capacity scaling should be done accordingly.

 

[dBSPL]

Excerpt from "A REVIEW OF FRANCE'S NEW GENERATION BARRACUDA CLASS NUCLEAR-PROPELLED SUBMARINES (SSN)" in DzKK official gazette January 2024 issue

"With the recent commissioning of the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant, Turkey will take its place among the countries using nuclear energy. Subsequently, it is foreseen that knowledge and experience in nuclear energy in all sectors, both civilian and military, will increase in a short period of time and this energy will be integrated into new capacity building areas.

In addition, the introduction of nuclear technology in Turkey is also a turning point for the planned national nuclear-powered submarine programme in the medium term. It is inevitable that the transition to nuclear-propelled submarines will lead to critical developments for the Turkish Naval Forces.

In particular, the indigenous heavy torpedo AKYA and the submarine-launched ATMACA G/M will add strength to the power of our submarines, and with the acquisition of long-range GEZGİN cruise missile capability by our nuclear submarines, our submarines will become one of the most effective weapons in the world.

In the process of transition to nuclear energy, considering our limited knowledge and experience in the field, it is considered that there are various issues that need to be taken into consideration for our Naval Forces. Apart from the operation and maintenance of the nuclear reactor, which is a highly technical issue, it is important that projects in line with our concept of submarine utilisation and preliminary preparations for the training of submariner personnel be initiated now. Thus, the foresighted plans to be made as early as the project design phase will provide guidance in solving problems before they arise."

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/Content/Upload/Docs/Ocak_2024_Dergi.pdf

So the whole picture emerged. All the pieces have now fallen into place in a meaningful way.

What has been officially or semi-officially announced:
- A large number of heavy OPVs that will have a direct impact on the mission intensity of the frigates, and the second group of four frigates being brought first line, in the frigate leg of MILGEM
- 280-meter full scale aircraft carrier and indigenous combat elements will be deployed on board
- 8-10 thousand tons of missile destroyers and a large number of strategic missile systems will be deployed on board
- 2 LHDs with drone mothership capability and a large number of long-range armored landing ship, thus increasing amphibious landing capabilities as well as dramatically increasing power projection.

And unformal declaration of obvious: we now know why the vertical launch capability was requested in the MILDEN project.

If we take this SSIK and the statements before and after it as a whole, I think this period is an important date that will be remembered for years to come as the beginning of many things, not only for our naval forces but for the whole region.

 

[Bogeyman]

So the whole picture emerged. All the pieces have now fallen into place in a meaningful way.

What has been officially or semi-officially announced:
- A large number of heavy OPVs that will have a direct impact on the mission intensity of the frigates, and the second group of four frigates being brought first line, in the frigate leg of MILGEM
- 280-meter full scale aircraft carrier and indigenous combat elements will be deployed on board
- 8-10 thousand tons of missile destroyers and a large number of strategic missile systems will be deployed on board
- 2 LHDs with drone mothership capability and a large number of long-range armored landing ship, thus increasing amphibious landing capabilities as well as dramatically increasing power projection.

And unformal declaration of obvious: we now know why the vertical launch capability was requested in the MILDEN project.

If we take this SSIK and the statements before and after it as a whole, I think this period is an important date that will be remembered for years to come as the beginning of many things, not only for our naval forces but for the whole region.

The magazine mentions that a nuclear-powered submarine is desired in the medium term. Medium term means around 10 years for the naval forces. So will MILDEN be nuclear propelled?

 

[Sanchez]

The magazine mentions that a nuclear-powered submarine is desired in the medium term. Medium term means around 10 years for the naval forces. So will MILDEN be nuclear propelled?

From a sailor's perspective where they plan 20-30 years ahead, I'd think medium would mean 15-20 years. I expect MilDen to be diesel electric with AIP as others, but after that...

 

[Bogeyman]

From a sailor's perspective where they plan 20-30 years ahead, I'd think medium would mean 15-20 years. I expect MilDen to be diesel electric with AIP as others, but after that...

True. Dzkk's plans are working very slowly. They live in a universe different from our understanding of time.

 

[dBSPL]

From a sailor's perspective where they plan 20-30 years ahead, I'd think medium would mean 15-20 years. I expect MilDen to be diesel electric with AIP as others, but after that...

The design and verification of nuclear propulsion is itself a 10-15 year process. I agree with those who draw a projection that the most realistic estimates will probably start in the 2040s at the earliest.

On the other hand, we see the most typical examples of Turkish-type project development in the military field; more specifically, when I look at the last five naval platform programs, all but one of them have either gone far beyond the targets set at the beginning of the project, or an abnormally challenging level has been set from the very beginning.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

January 19: A Big Day “four” Turkish Navy | TURDEF

Four new capabilities for the Turkish Navy, TCG Istanbul F-515, TCG Derya A-1590, TCG Arif Ekmekçi (A-575) and Marlin will enter the Turkish Navy inventory.

www.turdef.com

 

[UkroTurk]

A ship does not constantly operate its radars or electronic warfare suite at 100% capacity. Therefore, the electricity need in times of crisis is not the same as the electricity need in normal times. When intense electronic warfare is used, the ship may run out of fuel in a short time. (I don't remember this issue exactly in my memories, but I remember a few sample cases like this) Therefore, capacity scaling should be done accordingly.

I have no clue. Logically , if CENK-S needs Megawatt Energy and consumes more fuel, having additional MAR-D will enable fuel saving. When you don't need long range, high altitude S-band frequency, you could switch MAR-D which is X-band for self defense mode.

I assume we are all agree with that self defense mode of a warship is vital. Self defense is more prior than long range detection.


You can't just turn self defense systems and radars off for sake of fuel.



On the other hand i don't think CENK-S requires megawatt supply like SPY-6.

On internet it is being said AESA of USN ships effects on fuel consumption 10-20 %.

Look at the new Barbaros modernisation, they will have 2x MAR-D plus PESA plus AKR etc. Supply of electricity doesn't seem big problem since we don't use 4x SPY/6 panels.

One SPY/6 AMDR is run by 1000-volts of DC power.

 

[uçuyorum]

I have no clue. Logically , if CENK-S needs Megawatt Energy and consumes more fuel, having additional MAR-D will enable fuel saving. When you don't need long range, high altitude S-band frequency, you could switch MAR-D which is X-band for self defense mode.

I assume we are all agree with that self defense mode of a warship is vital. Self defense is more prior than long range detection.


You can't just turn self defense systems and radars off for sake of fuel.



On the other hand i don't think CENK-S requires megawatt supply like SPY-6.

On internet it is being said AESA of USN ships effects on fuel consumption 10-20 %.

Look at the new Yavuz modernisation, they will have 2x MAR-D plus PESA plus AKR etc. Supply of electricity doesn't seem big problem since we don't use 4x SPY/6 panels.

CENK is said to be roughly 3 times that of Smart S

 

[UkroTurk]

Speaking of which, ARDA and CAFRAD CFR may be similar in architecture, but CFR is backed by better processing power and more T/R, better hardware. Nevertheless, 4x ARDA would be very useful as a secondary radar, providing 360° coverage and continuous tracking in any sector. The question now is whether we can omit the AKREP and put 2 x ARDA in each spot to make up for the 360 degrees. Would 2 x ARDA be good enough for tracking?

You are the Boss. I have no clue. Put then 4 ARDA plus AKREP ı don't think ARDA costs and consumes a lot.

At least Ada Class deserves 4x ARDA