TR Naval Programs

[yusuf]

iclass ships can carry two ten tons heli,one in inside one is outside,the other point is aselsan have heli approaching radar?

 

[Manomed]

Any news on the reis class submarines? Why is it taking too long?

 

[Lool]

Any news on the reis class submarines? Why is it taking too long?

The first Reis class submarine already hit the sea and is undergoing sea trials
The second Reis class submarine will hit the seas for sea trials next year
That is the most up to date info I have
For more info, you can ask @Anmdt

 

[Lool]

Plus, a big no for the Russian submarines for many reasons of being not compatible to TN in terms of standards and quality.

Hm........ I still dont understand why many believe that if Turkey co-operated with Russia it will mainly be on conventional submarines?
I mean Erdo already has the technology of conventional submarines; STM (alone) already showcased independent designs of new submarines in IDEF21. In fact, Turkey may have surpassed Russia in conventional submarines designs as well considering that they are involved in the current Reis (Type 214) submarine redesigns before it was actually built for around 10 years. Moreover, Turkey's chronic problem with naval engines is already being solved by Ukraine and the US (though I wouldnt like getting to dependent on the WEST just to get burned like in Altay)
If there was any sort pf co-operation, it will probably be on something that Turkey doesnt have which is obviously Nuclear submarine technology. And if such case was true, then I agree with Turkey to progress on with it considering that the West will never give Turkey Nuclear submarine tech ever

 

[TheInsider]

Currently, there is no problem with Reis subs. The first one is on trial and will be delivered next year. Erdo is sending a message to two countries Germany and the USA. If a new German admin tries some shenanigans over sub deal Turkey will stop payments and complete the remaining subs on his own. Also, sue Germany according to the contract signed. If USA stops supporting our F-16s via FMS, Turkey will declare the FMS contract as null and void and go its own way and apply national modernization even for the latest F-16 block 50+. After Erdos's speech, Aselsan shared this, which means some things are matured. It is no coincidence.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1443550287680135168

 

[Lool]

"Cumhurbaşkanı Erdoğan: Almanya Reis serisi denizaltı işini biraz gevşekten alıyor. Almanya eğer bu işte bize verdiği sözü yerine getirmezse yapacağımız iş, alternatifleri bulmaktır. Alternatifler tükenmez."

Does he even know we are making them under license?

Mate, if my memory serves me right, Turkey spent a lot of resources and time on that deal to the point that Erdo had to visit several times just to convince the germans. In fact, I did hear that turkish engineers even contributed to fixing the problems/design defects of the TYPE 214 for the germans before it was being built in Turkey

If after all these years, efforts, money, and free service, they are starting to get lazy because of some rotten pressure from the US and Greece; then the Turks have the right to fqing blow with rage on the germans
Amd Turkey, in the long term, wont suffer a lot; since they already built and started the sea trials for one Reis class submarine. Thus, the Turks may have already possessed most of the technology related to the submarine so they can just build a new one with a different design later on

 

[Abdelaziz]

Hm........ I still dont understand why many believe that if Turkey co-operated with Russia it will mainly be on conventional submarines?
I mean Erdo already has the technology of conventional submarines; STM (alone) already showcased independent designs of new submarines in IDEF21. In fact, Turkey may have surpassed Russia in conventional submarines designs as well considering that they are involved in the current Reis (Type 214) submarine redesigns before it was actually built for around 10 years. Moreover, Turkey's chronic problem with naval engines is already being solved by Ukraine and the US (though I wouldnt like getting to dependent on the WEST just to get burned like in Altay)
If there was any sort pf co-operation, it will probably be on something that Turkey doesnt have which is obviously Nuclear submarine technology. And if such case was true, then I agree with Turkey to progress on with it considering that the West will never give Turkey Nuclear submarine tech ever

For subs .. turkey still needs two critical techs .. AIP and hy steel .. i dunno if russian produces AIP ...

 

[TheInsider]

AIP is dead. Lithium-ION batteries are replacing/will replace AIP. HY steel is not a problem Turkey can produce it if necessary or you can buy it from multiple suppliers. The real target is non-magnetic steel.

 

[Abdelaziz]

Mate, if my memory serves me right, Erdo spent a lot of resources and time on that deal. In fact, I did hear that turkish engineers even contributed to fixing the problems/design defects of the TYPE 214 for the germans before it was being built in Turkey

If after all these years, efforts, money, and free service, they are starting to get lazy because of some rotten pressure from the US and Greece; then the Turks have the right to fqing blow with rage on the germans
Amd Turkey, in the long term, wont suffer a lot; since they already built and started the sea trials for one Reis class submarine. Thus, the Turks may have already possessed most of the technology related to the submarine so they can just build a new one with a different design later on

Turkish industry get a lot of befits from this project .. a lot of critical systems was locally produced .. all the submarine body produced in turkey including the section 50 which is huge !! Beside c&c system,sonars,communications und so weiter .... For example turkey can produce now submarines with a higher locality rate more than korea .. but still AIP and steel the remaining milestones

 

[Oublious]

AIP is dead. Lithium-ION batteries are replacing/will replace AIP.

So Idealab project is no more? I did read a article about Turkish engineers and sciencists talking about what kind batteries we should use in the subs for Milden several years ago. So Lithium batteries are approved.

 

[TheInsider]

Lithium batteries are the way. Turkey will be producing its own lithium batteries very soon. We are setting up a big battery factory which will be enough for the production of 400k EV vehicles. Aspilsan is also investing in lithium battery production. Turkey has a good local cobalt and nickel production to feed those factories. We also started producing battery-level lithium. One big reason for lithium batteries is, when lithium-ion batteries become obsolete it will be easier to switch to the new battery technology. For example solid-state batteries. We will just replace battery packs and we will be good to go.

 

[Abdelaziz]

Yea ..i had even read before that japan produced lithium ion battery powered submarine

 

[Yasar_TR]

Current Reis Class subs all use AIP packs. That is what makes them so good as well. Air Independent Propulsion is intrinsically a good system. It may need to be developed further. But nevertheless it is a very important part of a non nuclear modern submarine tech.
Whether it is Sterling Type or Hydrogen Fuel type, AIP system is vital for the survival of a submarine.
French MESMA AIP, uses ethanol and oxygen to generate steam to drive the power generators. (Efficiency is low though)
Soryu Class utilises Saab Kockums Sterling engine for AIP and Li-Ion batteries powered by Diesel engines.
U214 class uses hydrogen fuel cells with standard batteries and Diesel engine. Our Reis class should be looked in to, to see if there could be a possibility to convert it’s current batteries to LI-Ion.
For quick acceleration and sustained high speeds there is nothing that can surpass Li-Ion at the moment.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Yea ..i had even read before that japan produced lithium ion battery powered submarine

Correct ! But the Li-Ion batteries are charged by the Diesel engines and the “Sterling” AIP engine. So the submarine still has an AIP component that makes it so deadly, as it doesn’t need to surface for long periods of time. Li-Ion batteries introduce longevity and quick acceleration, plus sustained higher speeds as and when needed without sacrificing and depleting battery charge like chemical batteries do.
When you have submarine hunters above you, it is important to have the capability to leave the area silently and stealthily at speed. Or if you are hunting yourself, your quick and prolonged approach with stealth is vital. Li-Ion comes in handy under those conditions.

 

[Anmdt]

Hm........ I still dont understand why many believe that if Turkey co-operated with Russia it will mainly be on conventional submarines?
I mean Erdo already has the technology of conventional submarines; STM (alone) already showcased independent designs of new submarines in IDEF21. In fact, Turkey may have surpassed Russia in conventional submarines designs as well considering that they are involved in the current Reis (Type 214) submarine redesigns before it was actually built for around 10 years. Moreover, Turkey's chronic problem with naval engines is already being solved by Ukraine and the US (though I wouldnt like getting to dependent on the WEST just to get burned like in Altay)
If there was any sort pf co-operation, it will probably be on something that Turkey doesnt have which is obviously Nuclear submarine technology. And if such case was true, then I agree with Turkey to progress on with it considering that the West will never give Turkey Nuclear submarine tech ever

If TN ever getting the idea of nuclear submarines, why should they really bother with Russia, while China in fact will equally piss off the west and provide more in return than what Russians could ever share.

I am not claiming Turkey has surpassed Russia in conventional sub design and contruction, such a claim will not be accurate because Russians have the tech and experience of decades they can design and construct anything with ease. What i am implying at this point Russia has none to offer, all Turkey needs to pursue is getting the right partner for gaining self-sufficiency and the partners are out there much better than what Russians may offer.

 

[AWP]

I personally think that there is more to this russian deal in the submarine scope more than what we think and as much as I disagree with RTE but I don't think he is dumb and went against all military advisors on this deal . I think that the TN have bigger ambition and they only found it in Russia to achieve it , RTE took this opportunity to shove it up USA bum. so it's win win for the state and TSK .

what I really think that TN is looking to acquire the nuclear submarine propulsion technology + the submarine vertical missile ballistic launch system . now , which country other than russia will offer us these two ?

- the west ? hahaha no
- china ? yes but not wise choice with the all us strategic shift of theater. in the us eyes, to be with russia is acceptable than being with china .

this is what I can see specially with the rise of the turkish defense industry and with what I believe turky will soon develop a hypersonic missile + long range cruise missile and they need a method to deliver these two . just imagine TN have 12 nuclear submarine with 16 virtual launch silo for hypersonic missile + 4 tubes for cruise missile and atmaca . yes it's dream but now one knows .

otherwise I can't see any benefit from that deal

 

[TheInsider]

PEMs are a real headache. Storing hydrogen and oxygen and refueling sub is a real pain in the ass. Sterling is also heavy and not space-efficient so it is not useful at all compared to Li-Ion batteries. A sub with Li-Ion batteries can stay underwater for an extended period compared to the current AIP submarines with PEM cells or Sterling engines. Because Li-Ion batteries have more energy density. Let's assume If you burn all the fuel in the Sterling engine you get x amount of electrical energy. If you replace the sterling engine, fuel and oxidizer tanks, and all the complex machinery with Li-Ion batteries you get y amount of energy. Math works y>x so removing the sterling engine is logical.

Japanese simply dumped sterling engine and lead-acid batteries and stuffed Li-Ion batteries in place of those and extended the underwater time of the submarine greatly. Dump the sterling because why not? Even if you recharge batteries with a Sterling engine a single charge of Li-Ion batteries can beat it. With an extended period of underwater operation compared to a sterling engine, you can go to a safe place ascend to periscope depth and recharge Li-Ion batteries with diesel engines.

The eleventh Sōryū-class submarine (Ōryū) is the first Japanese submarine in the fleet to mount lithium-ion batteries. The JS Ōryū was given a budget of ¥64.3 billion (equivalent to ¥65.55 billion or US$601.3 million in 2019)[8] under the 2015 Japanese Defense Budget.[9]

Lithium-ion batteries have almost double the electric storage capacity of traditional lead-acid batteries, and by not only replacing them in the existing battery storage areas but adding to the already large battery capacity by also filling the huge space (several hundred tons displacement) inside the hull previously occupied by the AIP Stirling engines and their fuel tanks with these new batteries, the amount of (more powerful) batteries carried overall is massive. This has improved the underwater endurance significantly and is felt will be an advantage over the slow recharge capability of the AIP system.

In any event, JMSDF believes that lithium-ion is the way forward and intends to 'trial' this new system and compare it to the previous AIP system for operational effectiveness.

 

[TheInsider]

Correct ! But the Li-Ion batteries are charged by the Diesel engines and the “Sterling” AIP engine. So the submarine still has an AIP component that makes it so deadly, as it doesn’t need to surface for long periods of time. Li-Ion batteries introduce longevity and quick acceleration, plus sustained higher speeds as and when needed without sacrificing and depleting battery charge like chemical batteries do.
When you have submarine hunters above you, it is important to have the capability to leave the area silently and stealthily at speed. Or if you are hunting yourself, your quick and prolonged approach with stealth is vital. Li-Ion comes in handy under those conditions.

This is not correct. Sterling is a deadweight compared to Li-Ion batteries. You will get less energy by burning all the fuel in the Sterling setup compared to a single charge of lithium-ion batteries that are placed in the space of the sterling engine and required tanks/machinery.

 

[Abdelaziz]

Correct ! But the Li-Ion batteries are charged by the Diesel engines and the “Sterling” AIP engine. So the submarine still has an AIP component that makes it so deadly, as it doesn’t need to surface for long periods of time. Li-Ion batteries introduce longevity and quick acceleration, plus sustained higher speeds as and when needed without sacrificing and depleting battery charge like chemical batteries do.
When you have submarine hunters above you, it is important to have the capability to leave the area silently and stealthily at speed. Or if you are hunting yourself, your quick and prolonged approach with stealth is vital. Li-Ion comes in handy under those conditions.

I think they could use li-on without AIP

 

[Combat-Master]

MILGEM OPV