TR Naval Programs

[UkroTurk]

@Anmdt Dear if you were chief commander of Turkish Navy and miraculously 2 billion USD were donated to be spent* in TN this year , what would you buy? Which ships would you build?Where would you spend?

(* Not to double salaries of personal and you have to pay this money additional , you mustn't save annual budget for future)

 

[uçuyorum]

@Anmdt Dear if you were chief commander of Turkish Navy and miraculously 2 billion USD were donated to be spent* in TN this year , what would you buy? Which ships would you build?Where would you spend?

(* Not to double salaries of personal and you have to pay this money additional , you mustn't save annual budget for future)

My guess probably just more milden and helicopters for frigates (Besides TF2000 immediately )

 

[BalkanTurk90]

@Anmdt Dear if you were chief commander of Turkish Navy and miraculously 2 billion USD were donated to be spent* in TN this year , what would you buy? Which ships would you build?Where would you spend?

(* Not to double salaries of personal and you have to pay this money additional , you mustn't save annual budget for future)

I would just speed up the project and build more Milden submarines .
Why submarines?
Because are hard to find and to shoot them , Even USA will have hard time so I hope Turkiye considers this and give more money for Mildens and in mutuple blocks like :
-Block 1 - 75 meter Milden
-Block 2 - 95 meter VLS Milden
-Block 3 - 110 Meter Nuclear powered VLS Milden

 

[UkroTurk]

I would buy modular point defense systems for every frigates, corvettes, YTKBs. And new sonars.

I would also buy 50 pieces x 100 ton midget submarines. 10 of them would have point air defense systems with AESA radars. 10 of them would have MRLS.

I would buy very light torpedos, Bozdoğan/sungur missiles, UMTAS.

 

[Anmdt]

@Anmdt Dear if you were chief commander of Turkish Navy and miraculously 2 billion USD were donated to be spent* in TN this year , what would you buy? Which ships would you build?Where would you spend?

(* Not to double salaries of personal and you have to pay this money additional , you mustn't save annual budget for future)

5 Seahawk, 2-3 CH-53
Remaining for 2 AH140 with I-class sensors.

 

[UkroTurk]

5 Seahawk, 2-3 CH-53
Remaining for 2 AH140 with I-class sensors.

So you'd like to have 2x 6000 ton frigate CODAD

2 x CH-53

5x Seahawks

 

[Khagan1923]

A New Procurement Model for TF-2000 Might be on Table | TURDEF

The SSIK may invent a new solution so the Turkish Navy reaches the TF-2000 Air Defence Destroyer. TurDef understands that some modalities are being discussed.

turdef.com

- TF-2000 decision postponed until the end of 2024
- TF-2000 latest model is not "final"
- First TF-2000 to be built at Istanbul Naval Shipyard
- ASFAT to oversee project
- Second Batch of I-Class will see no changes as some have speculated and hinted

According to TurDef "sources".

 

[dBSPL]

- Second Batch of I-Class will see no changes as some have speculated and hinted

According to TurDef "sources".

I hope there will be a decision also on third block before 2028-2030 period. Especially after the construction of the second block, the I-class could become one of the fastest frigate building programs in the world, thanks to parallel-production capability. While the destroyer program can proceed in its own course, my humble opinion is that while we have a program like the I class, this light and relatively economical platform should progress with minor changes and become the backbone of the navy in a short time.

 

[uçuyorum]

I hope there will be a decision also on third block before 2028-2030 period. Especially after the construction of the second block, the I-class could become one of the fastest frigate building programs in the world, thanks to parallel-production capability. While the destroyer program can proceed in its own course, my humble opinion is that while we have a program like the I class, this light and relatively economical platform should progress with minor changes and become the backbone of the navy in a short time.

The decision to keep 16 VLS might mean they are more confident with Sapan block 2 quadpack. But I think even with that it might be worth considering additional launchers, based on Göksur missiles etc. I don't think 3rd set of Istif makes too much sense without modification

 

[dBSPL]

The decision to keep 16 VLS might mean they are more confident with Sapan block 2 quadpack. But I think even with that it might be worth considering additional launchers, based on Göksur missiles etc. I don't think 3rd set of Istif makes too much sense without modification

I agree, if the third block will be officially requested, it can be accompanied by some changes in the configuration of the main mast etc. But I am personally satisfied with the decision to immediately building the second block production without wasting time. More generally, and as a projection before the 2040s, I wish we reach an arithmetic in the main surface combatant fleet that 4-5 frigates for each destroyer. It will not easy to achieve this, especially if we do not accelerate frigate productions in next 5 years.

 

[Khagan1923]

I agree, if the third block will be officially requested, it can be accompanied by some changes in the configuration of the main mast etc. But I am personally satisfied with the decision to immediately building the second block production without wasting time. More generally, and as a projection before the 2040s, I wish we reach an arithmetic in the main surface combatant fleet that 4-5 frigates for each destroyer. It will not easy to achieve this, especially if we do not accelerate frigate productions in next 5 years.

I think depending on timeline we could see Gökdeniz get replaced with PDMS even for the second batch. USN has started to replace its Phalanx CIWS on its Destroyers with RAM and SeaRAM.

The U.S. Navy Replaces Mk.15 Phalanx with RAM and SeaRAM | TURDEF

The U.S. Navy will replace the Mk.15 Phalanx close defence systems of the " Arleigh Burke " destroyers with the longer-range RIM-116 RAM.

turdef.com

 

[Sanchez]

Istif Class being so lacking in AA department is sad. In a world where we envision them with 16 AShMs, enemies soon will have the same number of AShMs as well. We plan on expanding our foot print all over the region, going as far as western Indian Ocean. Adding to AShMs, there will be drone and ground launched cruise missile threats as well. 8 Sipers and (hopefully) 32 Hisar-Ds will last for a single engagement. There must be a way to squeeze one more 8 cell launcher on the design.

 

[Afif]

Istif Class being so lacking in AA department is sad. In a world where we envision them with 16 AShMs, enemies soon will have the same number of AShMs as well. We plan on expanding our foot print all over the region, going as far as western Indian Ocean. Adding to AShMs, there will be drone and ground launched cruise missile threats as well. 8 Sipers and (hopefully) 32 Hisar-Ds will last for a single engagement. There must be a way to squeeze one more 8 cell launcher on the design.

Iirc, @Anmdt once said I class design has reached its limit and cannot be stretched anymore. I think, given the nature of emerging threats fundamentally different solutions and approaches are needed to be explored than just emphasizing on few more VLS.

The primary one being high energy laser weapon. Israeli Iron beam, British Dragon fire and US projects are becoming realities. What I mean is, this is not something of far future, rather within reach of existing technological capabilities. Türkiye should prioritized such development.

Also, MKE and Aselsan should develop something like this in the short term.

The Strales 76mm system with DART guided ammunition

The first lot of DART/STRALES 76mm guided ammunition, produced by OTO Melara, was successfully tested at the end of March. The firing trials were conducted on board one of the Italian Navy’s ships equipped with Strales 76mm SR and Selex NA25 fire control system.

www.leonardo.com

 

[UkroTurk]

Istif Class being so lacking in AA department is sad. In a world where we envision them with 16 AShMs, enemies soon will have the same number of AShMs as well. We plan on expanding our foot print all over the region, going as far as western Indian Ocean. Adding to AShMs, there will be drone and ground launched cruise missile threats as well. 8 Sipers and (hopefully) 32 Hisar-Ds will last for a single engagement. There must be a way to squeeze one more 8 cell launcher on the design.

We could offer you ASFAD 3600
No idea about 4500nm range and sea keeping capabilities.

But we want Turkish Arrowhead (Dearsan F142)
we want a real frigate 5000-6000ton

Dearsan

www.dearsan.com

 

[Brave Janissary]

@UkroTurk Asfat is a semi-public company. I dont think so as 3600 is a just a what if project. Thats challenging nature of milgem project.

All of us known that istif class advanced version of ada class and there is a possibilty of any block 2 it would be of course as 3600. And fast requirements of Turkish Navy could be require as3600 kind fast solutions.

Turkish navy have a less time, have a low budget when compared titans.

Yes 166 metered Tf-2000 is good tf-4500 is a nice design but thruts is a as3600.

Just because we need a very fast long range air defence missile capable aesa radar supported aaw frigates, towed and advanced hull mounted sonar carrier vl-asroc kind ammo carrier asw ships.

currently a very fast solution is ;

- Finish Barbaros MLU and use him asuw frigate
- Finish other 3 istif b1 on private shipyards. and use hims asuw frigate
- convert ada class to asuw frigate with mlu conversion help of hisar launchers.
- Create first as-3600 when istif b1 complete on private shipyards. And use him aaw/asw frigate with help of 64x vls and sensors and sonars. (just add 4 sided x band çafrad çfr to design and support him 400 km ranged s band aesa cenk-s) 32x siper b1/b2, + 64 hisar-d + 8x vl-asroc kind ammo + 8x gezgin.
- after complete of the istif b1 , order 3x as3600 to private shipyards build 2x in same time on naval shipyards. İn the total ;

6x As-3600 asw/aaw Frigate
4x İstif Class Asuw
4x Barbaros Class Asuw
4x Ada Class Asuw Mlu
Until 2028-29...

Fleet design : 1x AAW/ASW frigate + 2x Asuw Frigate. =6x Fleet.

 

[Anmdt]

. 8 Sipers and (hopefully) 32 Hisar-Ds

For the given setting Siper B1 and Hisar-D would suit better. Thus i would say: Hopefully 32 Siper B1 (or Hisar-D ER) and 32 Hisar D.

And if this vessel needs to be put out for wider area defences then 8 Siper B2, 32 Hisar D poses a good air defence load out. And in such a duty there won't be a single ship.

If we are thinking in short term all we got is 16 Hisar D.

 

[uçuyorum]

For the given setting Siper B1 and Hisar-D would suit better. Thus i would say: Hopefully 32 Siper B1 (or Hisar-D ER) and 32 Hisar D.

And if this vessel needs to be put out for wider area defences then 8 Siper B2, 32 Hisar D poses a good air defence load out. And in such a duty there won't be a single ship.

If we are thinking in short term all we got is 16 Hisar D.

All I hope quadpack is available in next 5 years and say not 10, so like after the batch of 6-7-8 but hopefully before 9-12 are built.

 

[Anmdt]

Iirc, @Anmdt once said I class design has reached its limit and cannot be stretched anymore. I think, given the nature of emerging threats fundamentally different solutions and approaches are needed to be explored than just emphasizing on few more VLS.

The primary one being high energy laser weapon. Israeli Iron beam, British Dragon fire and US projects are becoming realities. What I mean is, this is not something of far future, rather within reach of existing technological capabilities. Türkiye should prioritized such development.

Also, MKE and Aselsan should develop something like this in the short term.

The Strales 76mm system with DART guided ammunition

The first lot of DART/STRALES 76mm guided ammunition, produced by OTO Melara, was successfully tested at the end of March. The firing trials were conducted on board one of the Italian Navy’s ships equipped with Strales 76mm SR and Selex NA25 fire control system.

www.leonardo.com

Navy (Armerkom) and Aselsan have been in touch for the guided projectiles and RF one would likely be the last step. I think one equipped with proximity fuse and another programmable munition would do it in the short term. I don't see a RF guided projectile coming before GPS guided one either. And MKE has the least to do in this part, they produce shell, explosives and leave the rest to Aselsan & Tubitak.

There is Nazar DIRCM and then there is an unmanned HEL being worked on, by Tubitak so Navy had a roadmap set out for this too. I would expect to see Nazar family (light and full configurations) aboard all major surface ships (including auxillaries) by 2030.

 

[dBSPL]

@UkroTurk Asfat is a semi-public company. I dont think so as 3600 is a just a what if project. Thats challenging nature of milgem project.

All of us known that istif class advanced version of ada class and there is a possibilty of any block 2 it would be of course as 3600. And fast requirements of Turkish Navy could be require as3600 kind fast solutions.

Turkish navy have a less time, have a low budget when compared titans.

Yes 166 metered Tf-2000 is good tf-4500 is a nice design but thruts is a as3600.

Just because we need a very fast long range air defence missile capable aesa radar supported aaw frigates, towed and advanced hull mounted sonar carrier vl-asroc kind ammo carrier asw ships.

currently a very fast solution is ;

- Finish Barbaros MLU and use him asuw frigate
- Finish other 3 istif b1 on private shipyards. and use hims asuw frigate
- convert ada class to asuw frigate with mlu conversion help of hisar launchers.
- Create first as-3600 when istif b1 complete on private shipyards. And use him aaw/asw frigate with help of 64x vls and sensors and sonars. (just add 4 sided x band çafrad çfr to design and support him 400 km ranged s band aesa cenk-s) 32x siper b1/b2, + 64 hisar-d + 8x vl-asroc kind ammo + 8x gezgin.
- after complete of the istif b1 , order 3x as3600 to private shipyards build 2x in same time on naval shipyards. İn the total ;

6x As-3600 asw/aaw Frigate
4x İstif Class Asuw
4x Barbaros Class Asuw
4x Ada Class Asuw Mlu
Until 2028-29...

Fleet design : 1x AAW/ASW frigate + 2x Asuw Frigate. =6x Fleet.

Aside from all the Navy's current areas of interest and risk zones, hydrocarbon exploration and extraction activities are starting in the Gulf of Libya this year and off the coast of Somalia next year. The logistics master plan for the strategic Welfare Road from the Basrah to Edirnekapı has been signed and the Gulf is now definitely one of the Turkish Navy's areas of interest. After a while, a navy again, with 7 seas at its center and a sphere of influence that extends from the Gulf of Guinea to friendly and brotherly countries in South Asia.

This new paradigm becomes even more evident when we look at the basing strategies of our navy based on open sources. This situation creates an absolute expansion pressure on the Turkish Navy, both organizationally and platform-wise.

When I share my humble opinion on the future projections of the navy on a platform basis, I generally refrain from making estimates on production numbers. However, in terms of the size of the main surface combatant fleet, I believe that unless we can roughly double the traditionally accepted numbers (16 used to be a very popular figure), our deterrence in this domain will remain limited.

At this point, the development of a group of facilities and workforce within private shipyards focused on military production can be one of the most important weapons in our hands. If we drop into really urgent and essential conditions, the navy has a stronger backing than other force structures, which shows the strategic planning capacity that has been developed over many years.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Aside from all the Navy's current areas of interest and risk zones, hydrocarbon exploration and extraction activities are starting in the Gulf of Libya this year and off the coast of Somalia next year. The logistics master plan for the strategic Welfare Road from the Basrah to Edirnekapı has been signed and the Gulf is now definitely one of the Turkish Navy's areas of interest. After a while, a navy again, with 7 seas at its center and a sphere of influence that extends from the Gulf of Guinea to friendly and brotherly countries in South Asia.

This new paradigm becomes even more evident when we look at the basing strategies of our navy based on open sources. This situation creates an absolute expansion pressure on the Turkish Navy, both organizationally and platform-wise.

When I share my humble opinion on the future projections of the navy on a platform basis, I generally refrain from making estimates on production numbers. However, in terms of the size of the main surface combatant fleet, I believe that unless we can roughly double the traditionally accepted numbers (16 used to be a very popular figure), our deterrence in this domain will remain limited.

At this point, the development of a group of facilities and workforce within private shipyards focused on military production can be one of the most important weapons in our hands. If we drop into really urgent and essential conditions, the navy has a stronger backing than other force structures, which shows the strategic planning capacity that has been developed over many years.

I get the idea that Air Force and Army planning lagged behind in terms of concrete results. What do you think is the reason for that? How can other two branches (and Gendarmerie I guess) solve their problem with planning ahead?

Edit: or more succinctly, what seperates Navy from other branches that they deliver on these projects?