TR Navy Naval Programs

[Anmdt]

Hi @Anmdt
Memories revisited and got confused. You were, AFAIK, quite hopeful of this experimental project as well. Could you please elaborate what exactly was wasted?

It was promising when the project has been granted to a start-up that had realistic goals to build a mini-sub for various purposes (ISR, Oceanograpyhy) and to build a corporate culture, construction - integration know-how situationed outside the realms or military submarine building facilities. It was promising for utilizing existing pressurized tank manufacturers for building pressure hull of a mini scale submarine.

However, the founder managed to scrap away the built know-how. All of his team who worked dearly on project has scattered away, specifically away from him. The project has missed great deadlines - expectable for the first time, budget overruns - also expectable and SSB, the project grant and management authority has been patient through all, offered a way out to fun the company further - yet again, he declined the offer. A promising project turned into wasted of money.

Meanwhile zero coordination with Aselsan, Roketsan and Milden DPO / Golcuk Shipyard literally made them all say - " So what are we gonna exactly do with this?". As Golcuk reiterated that in sonar systems it makes least amount of sense to test an individual sensor unit, or scaled down versions for how sound waves travel and scatter in sea water at various depths, the test campaigns highly depended on transmitted sound power. Aselsan said the same, there was zero coordination, the image which displays 'integrated test payload' also wasn't made in coordination.

Such projects highly depends on an enthusiastic team self-sacrificing team, not a single invidiual who dearly glorify himself.

Yet the project still has a promising future if he maneuvers right, and transforms this platform into something meaningful, with coordination and cooperation.

 

[Anmdt]

Will not have a diesel? So 100 ton weight happens most optimal solution for 2-3 days missions?
So there must be minimum weight/ endurance ratio due to battery technology.??? ( Also+ fuel reservuar)

BTW you told about trancha before.

It has no diesel, it wasn't made for such. Could it be revised, enlarged for a diesel or gasoline generator? I also doubt. Integrating a generator is another trouble for such platform barely offering a sitting position for crew of two. The interior is as tight as it gets in a battle tank.

They should overhaul the design, facilitate larger pressure hull, new building - welding procedures, new construction spots - subcontractors. Could only happen, if Sefine shipyard, being where the integration of the components for the mini-sub take place, decide to form a submarine division.

 

[Ripley]

It was promising when the project has been granted to a start-up that had realistic goals to build a mini-sub for various purposes (ISR, Oceanograpyhy) and to build a corporate culture, construction - integration know-how situationed outside the realms or military submarine building facilities. It was promising for utilizing existing pressurized tank manufacturers for building pressure hull of a mini scale submarine.

However, the founder managed to scrap away the built know-how. All of his team who worked dearly on project has scattered away, specifically away from him. The project has missed great deadlines - expectable for the first time, budget overruns - also expectable and SSB, the project grant and management authority has been patient through all, offered a way out to fun the company further - yet again, he declined the offer. A promising project turned into wasted of money.

Meanwhile zero coordination with Aselsan, Roketsan and Milden DPO / Golcuk Shipyard literally made them all say - " So what are we gonna exactly do with this?". As Golcuk reiterated that in sonar systems it makes least amount of sense to test an individual sensor unit, or scaled down versions for how sound waves travel and scatter in sea water at various depths, the test campaigns highly depended on transmitted sound power. Aselsan said the same, there was zero coordination, the image which displays 'integrated test payload' also wasn't made in coordination.

Such projects highly depends on an enthusiastic team self-sacrificing team, not a single invidiual who dearly glorify himself.

Yet the project still has a promising future if he maneuvers right, and transforms this platform into something meaningful, with coordination and cooperation.

It has no diesel, it wasn't made for such. Could it be revised, enlarged for a diesel or gasoline generator? I also doubt. Integrating a generator is another trouble for such platform barely offering a sitting position for crew of two. The interior is as tight as it gets in a battle tank.

They should overhaul the design, facilitate larger pressure hull, new building - welding procedures, new construction spots - subcontractors. Could only happen, if Sefine shipyard, being where the integration of the components for the mini-sub take place, decide to form a submarine division.

It seemed a very indigenous tactical solution for many variable naval tasks and maritime jobs. It was just two years ago. And seems that SSB also did what they could to salvage it. Damn, it was a beautiful project.
Now I see what was wasted. It’s outrageous.

Thank you @Anmdt

 

[boredaf]

It has no diesel, it wasn't made for such. Could it be revised, enlarged for a diesel or gasoline generator? I also doubt. Integrating a generator is another trouble for such platform barely offering a sitting position for crew of two. The interior is as tight as it gets in a battle tank.

They should overhaul the design, facilitate larger pressure hull, new building - welding procedures, new construction spots - subcontractors. Could only happen, if Sefine shipyard, being where the integration of the components for the mini-sub take place, decide to form a submarine division.

That would defeat the originally stated purpose though, wouldn't it? Could it be salvaged by turning it into an unmanned first (or only) mini sub? Get rid of necessary life support systems, replace them with a battery or generator and more payload?

 

[Saithan]

Only option is to remove this project from that self absorbed person. No need to give him a second chance.

 

[Saithan]

Don't they have keel laying ceremony as proof of the project starting ?

I mean why the bragging of having 30 naval vessels project being worked on at the same time, wouldn't it make more sense to spread it out and deliver them on time.

 

[Anmdt]

Don't they have keel laying ceremony as proof of the project starting ?

I mean why the bragging of having 30 naval vessels project being worked on at the same time, wouldn't it make more sense to spread it out and deliver them on time.

Because their brothers funding them with ready to publish texts. Not all ships building concurrently;
Adik: 2 I Class, Few LCTs
Sefine: 2 I Class, 2 Indonesian FAC
Sedef: 2 I Class
Dearsan: 1 MH, 2 Qatar FAC, 1 TN-OPV + (2 Nigerian OPVs completed sea trials)
Istanbul Shipyard Command: 1 TF2000 (Not counting the Aircraft Carrier), 2 OPV (Almost delivered).
Istanbul Shipyard: 3 LMSB2, 1 UKR Milgem, 1 FAC
Ada: 1 LDG

Few (5) of those are freshly marked the steel cutting with minimal progress in construction.

Total amount of contracts is nearing to 40 hull, excluding the follow up orders on FAC, and NG Mine Hunter.

Nevertheless it is a great effort to see these all projects concurrently running, along with exports. But SavunmaSanayiST just loves making up numbers.

 

[Anmdt]

Construction of the first TF-2000 Air Defense Warfare Destroyer's block has begun at the Istanbul Shipyard Command!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1993968718078988751

The construction has commenced earlier this year (January), correct me if i am wrong - President Erdoğan has attended to the event. And funny part, these guys are referencing to wrong, old design. Such an audacity, for such a 'crucial' media outlet. They don't pay attention to the details.

 

[Anmdt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1993975985553780792

Here is the latest design with 2 band Flat Planar Arrays (ECM suite) and 2 more EA antennas.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1993975985553780792

Here is the latest design with 2 band Flat Planar Arrays (ECM suite) and 2 more EA antennas.

180 degree coverange for goksungur ? Thats np good , while in front of destroyer is Levent (i think) short range SAM but in modern warfare Small drones size of hand can bypass Levemt type SAMs so better to place another Gogsungur in front with ATOM munition and short range SAMs place them im VLS quadpacked

 

[Sanchez]

Looks like Barbaros MLU finally started for the second ship already. Salihreis is the lucky one.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1994043036247183553

 

[boredaf]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1993975985553780792

Here is the latest design with 2 band Flat Planar Arrays (ECM suite) and 2 more EA antennas.

I'm hoping 25mm guns will also be able to engage aerial targets. Also, any word on the drone launchers they mentioned before?

 

[Anmdt]

I'm hoping 25mm guns will also be able to engage aerial targets. Also, any word on the drone launchers they mentioned before?

Possibly not and nothing heard of that UAV launcher yet, nor USV interoperatibility. They have given up modular space that possibly could have been utilized for UUV/USV integration. That leaves us with stern-ramp currently.
I would very much like to see two more 35 mm ( single barrel gökdeniz ) on each sides for addes protection.

For new they have seem to focus a comprehensive EW suite covering all the bands except of the low-frequency (V/UHF) bands. Earlier designs had V/UHF ED, later omitted.

 

[boredaf]

Possibly not and nothing heard of that UAV launcher yet, nor USV interoperatibility. They have given up modular space that possibly could have been utilized for UUV/USV integration. That leaves us with stern-ramp currently.
I would very much like to see two more 35 mm ( single barrel gökdeniz ) on each sides for addes protection.

That's a bit of a shame, really, it was a brilliant idea to have loitering munitions on hand. And, if 25mm can't reliably (or at all) engage aerial targets then I agree that a couple of either 35 or 30 mm guns on each side is necessary. Asymmetric threats are becoming even more of an issue with each passing day, I hope we'll be ready.

 

[Tuncay]

The second Reis-class submarine TCG Hızırreis was delivered to the Turkish Naval Forces today.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1994059228319719770

 

[Pokemonte13]

TurDef at ITK: DPO, TF-2000 and MUGEM Part II: TF-2000 | TURDEF

TurDef presents TF-2000 Air Defence Destroyer, designed to provide area air defence for future MUGEM and TCG Anadolu within Turkish Navy strike-group operations

turdef.com

According to turdef there are plans for Tf2000 light under consideration.
My guesses is after 4 TF2000 a price optimised frigate/destroyer will come with a reduced systems instead cafrad only the multi function radar would remain and for long range use one single Rotating radar

 

[Yasar_TR]

TurDef at ITK: DPO, TF-2000 and MUGEM Part II: TF-2000 | TURDEF

TurDef presents TF-2000 Air Defence Destroyer, designed to provide area air defence for future MUGEM and TCG Anadolu within Turkish Navy strike-group operations

turdef.com

According to turdef there are plans for Tf2000 light under consideration.
My guesses is after 4 TF2000 a price optimised frigate/destroyer will come with a reduced systems instead cafrad only the multi function radar would remain and for long range use one single Rotating radar

I was never supportive of TF2000 destroyers, for the simple fact that they were far too expensive and too big for what we need (They would be great target practice pieces in Sea of Islands). Also the loss of any of these would be devastating.
But having started building one, it is only feasible to build a sister ship to keep it company and then concentrate our efforts on the building of at least 8 more Gabya sized -4500-5000ton- frigates. The above article’s last paragraph makes a good point of it. So I thought of bringing it out in to black and white here.

The TF-2000 is not the sole future combat ship design that is currently under consideration by the Design Project Office. Research and development efforts are ongoing into the designation of an intermediate class, which has provisionally been referred to as TF-2000 Flight II. The platforms have been designed to embody the modern equivalent of the Gabya-Class Frigates (Ex. Oliver Hazard Perry Class) that serve in the Turkish Navy, in terms of their mission capacity, weapon systems, long-range mission capabilities, and sensor infrastructure. The objective is to develop general-purpose frigates that can support task forces and aircraft carrier groups when necessary, while ensuring cost-effectiveness in both initial acquisition and operational expenditures. These vessels are designed to exhibit high levels of manoeuvrability. It is currently planned that the platforms, which will be 120-130 metres long with a displacement of 4,000 to 5,000 tonnes, will reach a speed of 27-28 knots with diesel propulsion. The weapon and sensor load will be similar to that of the TF-2000s, according to the shared information. The fact that the Gabya-Class Frigates have reached the end of their economic service life, coupled with the Turkish Naval Forces' increasing operational periods throughout the year and the Istif Class vessels reaching the end of their growth margin, means that a modern multi-purpose frigate is becoming an increasingly pressing requirement for the Turkish Naval Forces. The rapid execution of this step, in conjunction with the objective of establishing a comparable infrastructure with TF-2000, can be regarded as a pivotal vision in the context of accelerating processes and minimising initial acquisition and operating expenses.

 

[fushkee]

I think after TF-2000, we will need a class between TF-2000 and Istif class which it will attack/saturate the deep land areas to dominate the enemy soils.

 

[Anmdt]

TurDef at ITK: DPO, TF-2000 and MUGEM Part II: TF-2000 | TURDEF

TurDef presents TF-2000 Air Defence Destroyer, designed to provide area air defence for future MUGEM and TCG Anadolu within Turkish Navy strike-group operations

turdef.com

According to turdef there are plans for Tf2000 light under consideration.
My guesses is after 4 TF2000 a price optimised frigate/destroyer will come with a reduced systems instead cafrad only the multi function radar would remain and for long range use one single Rotating radar

I have read the the article but last part seemed a little inconsistent;
A TF2000 Flight II to Replace Gabya (check)
Meant to be lighter in tonnage and equipment (check)
Sensor and weapon load will be similar to the TF2000 (???)

TF-2000's current design both can be scaled to 9500+ tonnes with the introduction of Multi-Mission Bay (which is necessary for comprehensive USV integration as TN envisions) , and scaled to 6500-7000 tonnes by removing 64 VLS, leaving space for +16 for later integration. We are speaking of a General Purpose Frigate that is bound to sail with Aircraft Carrier in long term, thus i don't think Navy will be sacrificing unlimited operations capability at Sea State 5 which is to be succeeded with TF-2000, which is opting for a 4000 tonnes / 120 meters design may not be feasible in long term. And i don't quite believe TN will be going for anything lesser of Type-31.

Remember how OPV has started as "FFNBW, easy to procure and fast to built" and ended up with fully-equipped warships with VLS accommodation. We can not miss the chance of uncertainty, where we don't know what lies ahead in future for USV/UAV or counter-unmanned systems integrations.

 

[Anmdt]

accelerating processes and minimising initial acquisition and operating expenses.

(If Told by the Navy themselves) ; Told by a someone who once had an accelerated process and faster acquisition by the OPV project and turned that into a fully-fledged warship procurement going through a re-design process.

I was never supportive of TF2000 destroyers, for the simple fact that they were far too expensive and too big for what we need (They would be great target practice pieces in Sea of Islands). Also the loss of any of these would be devastating.
But having started building one, it is only feasible to build a sister ship to keep it company and then concentrate our efforts on the building of at least 8 more Gabya sized -4500-5000ton- frigates. The above article’s last paragraph makes a good point of it. So I thought of bringing it out in to black and white here.

Back in time, where we were transitioning from massive battleships to tin-can warships we have missed some features, also with the comfort of having no conflicts; sea-keeping, endurance, logistical autonomy, the first is later attained in 90s and deemed as crucial. A warship of greater sizes comes with this benefits - specifically logistical autonomy (180 days for TF-2000 is a nice feature), plus the future is not clear on how the counter-unmanned platforms system will be incorporated. Red-Sea incidents has once proven a longer-stay at sea and unlimited operations at high sea states matters. I still don't believe TN will be settling with a 4-5k design, at this point, or designing a warship altogether from scratch. They will stretch TF-2000 as far as possible, also considering that they are highly congested with Aircraft Carrier studies, leaving not much time, or man-power for studying on GP Frigate. Best opportunity here is to use TF-2000's design to scale it down to Type-31 tonnage, or up to proper Destroyer sizes.