TR Navy Navy|News & Discussions

[Anmdt]

KE can't land on anadolu without massive revision of deck or without seriously risking damaging the ship and crew. Simple as that

Man i don't have any time to dig deep in UAV thread, feel free to use search and see how some people claimed KE will be operative on Anadolu.

Anadolu is not a supercarrier, it's an LHD. In wartime she won't send out sorties of fixed wing aircraft left and right; she will send helicopter groups. Sortie generation and spacing is a problem for all carriers. TB3 launch and retrieval operations can take up to 15-20 minutes for each aircraft; this wouldn't hamper helicopter operations that much.

And Anadolu also have a heli spot on the starboard side behind the Phalanx. We don't know if this is secondary spot to launch, if it can retrieve from there as well; but it exists.

Well, we are lucky for not having the mentioned helicopters (or a concerning amount of those to interfere with schedule of TB3 operations) which inherently leaves the deck empty.

 

[uçuyorum]

Man i don't have any time to dig deep in UAV thread, feel free to use search and see how some people claimed KE will be operative on Anadolu.

Well, we are lucky for not having the mentioned helicopters (or a concerning amount of those to interfere with schedule of TB3 operations) which inherently leaves the deck empty.

At least it can loiter long, so you can have tb3 take off early and then populate the deck

 

[dBSPL]

Navy Commander Admiral Tatlıoğlu provided only a very superficial overview during the press briefing and did not go into detail. The topic I am most curious about is the new LSTs currently under construction. Will these be built with the exact same specifications and configuration as the first two ships of the class, or will they feature some additional capabilities or limited configuration changes? As we see, Modern-heavy LSTs form the backbone of the navy’s logistical caps, particularly within the framework of Africa missions. There is also the matter of amphibious operations, which is the ship’s primary role; I remember that topic has been discussed many times in various forums over the years. At the very least, a ship with such a large flight deck capable of accommodating heavy-class helicopters should have a hangar space for these types of helicopters, which could represent a significant capability gain for an LST operating across the ocean. In any case, it is certainly great that major steps toward modernizing amphibious capabilities are continuing.

 

[Zafer]

Above surface arresting cables can be attached with no modification to the deck of Anadolu. Automation, in other words AI can enable enough precision to eliminate risk of collision with deck or with objects on deck. I would employ two Kızılelma on Anadolu if the mission can make use of them. It is possible if you are willing to take a small risk of accident. If you can make it other navies will sign up to copy.

 

[Sanchez]

Navy Commander Admiral Tatlıoğlu provided only a very superficial overview during the press briefing and did not go into detail. The topic I am most curious about is the new LSTs currently under construction. Will these be built with the exact same specifications and configuration as the first two ships of the class, or will they feature some additional capabilities or limited configuration changes? As we see, Modern-heavy LSTs form the backbone of the navy’s logistical caps, particularly within the framework of Africa missions. There is also the matter of amphibious operations, which is the ship’s primary role; I remember that topic has been discussed many times in various forums over the years. At the very least, a ship with such a large flight deck capable of accommodating heavy-class helicopters should have a hangar space for these types of helicopters, which could represent a significant capability gain for an LST operating across the ocean. In any case, it is certainly great that major steps toward modernizing amphibious capabilities are continuing.

To clarify, no LST is currently in production. As I understand it in the last SSİK, it was decided that two more Bayraktars would be procured. They are not yet ordered. So they are not in production.

We talked about this 2 months ago.

LST project has been planned as 2 + 2 (options). Lately Adik has released - off the records - visuals of the new LST, mostly revisit of the original design with more turkish components.

Currently Bayraktar Class LSTs don't have a hangar, only a helipad that can support a Chinook sized heli. If they decided on approving those 2 options, we shouldn't expect the new ships to come with hangar space. I agree that there are no details; probably because the details are being worked on and there's nothing to share.

 

[Ripley]

Above surface arresting cables can be attached with no modification to the deck of Anadolu. Automation, in other words AI can enable enough precision to eliminate risk of collision with deck or with objects on deck. I would employ two Kızılelma on Anadolu if the mission can make use of them. It is possible if you are willing to take a small risk of accident. If you can make it other navies will sign up to copy.

Or scratch MUGEM, make it a proper UCAV, UCV carrier by designing its deck operations to your needs including KE specific takeoff and landing requirements.
TN command cannot allow any risks, no matter how small it is, on its flagship.

Although seeing TCG Anadolu opening new possibilities for our navy, it also seems to be falling further away from its main role as an LHD at the same time.

 

[Anmdt]

Or scratch MUGEM, make it a proper UCAV, UCV carrier by designing its deck operations to your needs including KE specific takeoff and landing requirements.
TN command cannot allow any risks, no matter how small it is, on its flagship.

Although seeing TCG Anadolu opening new possibilities for our navy, it also seems to be falling further away from its main role as an LHD at the same time.

One may speculate MUGEM project has been initiated for sake of shipborne KE operations. For initial dimensions TN has been negotiating with Baykar, not TAI that intends to deliver Anka-III and more though they had to update later. Declared timeline and rush for the MUGEM neither seems in lieu with common sense. Lacking air defense support - missilesa and ships, lacking long range submarine escorts, lacking oilers to support long range missions (single DIMDEG won't last that long alone for an enormous AC deployment) in the given time literally renders MUGEM useless.

Luckily there are some delusional people believing KE and TB3 may provide all kinds of defense and early warning, perimeter defense duties and launch offensive on their own in the given timeline of MUGEM, that doesn't make any sense within rational ship construction practices.

An aircraft carrier is creme de la creme,but beforehand it needs the cream to make. We need a few TF-2000, and Milden in service, set of matured air defense missile (point defence, long range) so that MUGEM will make a sense. Or else it is a sitting duck waiting for intervention and stand-off missiles.

 

[Anmdt]

To clarify, no LST is currently in production. As I understand it in the last SSİK, it was decided that two more Bayraktars would be procured. They are not yet ordered. So they are not in production.

We talked about this 2 months ago.


Currently Bayraktar Class LSTs don't have a hangar, only a helipad that can support a Chinook sized heli. If they decided on approving those 2 options, we shouldn't expect the new ships to come with hangar space. I agree that there are no details; probably because the details are being worked on and there's nothing to share.

That always has been strange to me, the ship is equipped with CMS and all sort of functions available in the operations room similarly to Ada Class, yet it lacks a hangar that may be useful for ASW operations.

It is a great multi-purpose platform seemingly not fulfilling the potential, not needing to mention that each costs as much as a corvette and more.

It would be no brainer to add a hangar in the next batch but altogether, there isn't enough Seahawks to equip the flotilla with no chance of acquisition in sight, nor that Gökbey or the big boy's navalization seem to be close. On top of that they could possibly need a deck extension.

Realization of optional orders mean that it is a rapid contract process with quick approval, thus i crossed the possibility of opting for half-LST, half-LHD ship of Anadolu shipyard. We might possibly have some ship to fill in for earlier planned Levend Class since STM is working on one for Malaysia (that later evolved into Anadolu) possibly to make up for that hangar space?

 

[Zafer]

Or scratch MUGEM, make it a proper UCAV, UCV carrier by designing its deck operations to your needs including KE specific takeoff and landing requirements.
TN command cannot allow any risks, no matter how small it is, on its flagship.

Although seeing TCG Anadolu opening new possibilities for our navy, it also seems to be falling further away from its main role as an LHD at the same time.

That role was set in a different world, we need to adapt to a world that is based on speed of adaptation. I accepted there can be a small risk but you can as well eliminate the risk by limiting operations to calm weather.

The opportunities are huge when you make it happen.

Going forward we need the full blown carrier to claim our place in the world. It is like asking the UK or France to abandone their place on the world scene asking Türkiye to give up MUGEM. You can't be trusted by your partner countries if you don't have the power.

 

[boredaf]

Going forward we need the full blown carrier to claim our place in the world. It is like asking the UK or France to abandone their place on the world scene asking Türkiye to give up MUGEM. You can't be trusted by your partner countries if you don't have the power.

Someone please ask him (because I'm pretty sure he blocked me lol) if he is aware that not only those two countries have actual overseas territories but also unimpeded access to oceans AND several times our defence budget. Also, while you're at it, what the fuck does " limiting operation to calm weather" even means?

 

[Sanchez]

Navantia and Navy shipyards command signed a deal for Anadolu's further maintenance.

"Signed on 8 April in Ankara, the agreement establishes a flexible contractual structure enabling the Turkish Navy to procure maintenance, repair and technical services from Navantia on a periodic or as-needed basis through request-for-quotation procedures. The framework will remain in force for three years, with an option to extend for a further three years."

Navantia signs TCG Anadolu L400 support framework deal | TURDEF

A new agreement reinforces Türkiye–Spain naval cooperation while sustaining lifecycle support for TCG Anadolu through a flexible maintenance framework.

turdef.com

Anadolu was built in Turkey. But one shouldn't forget that this was made with Navantia's design and expertise. Building complex ships like this is hard.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Navantia and Navy shipyards command signed a deal for Anadolu's further maintenance.

"Signed on 8 April in Ankara, the agreement establishes a flexible contractual structure enabling the Turkish Navy to procure maintenance, repair and technical services from Navantia on a periodic or as-needed basis through request-for-quotation procedures. The framework will remain in force for three years, with an option to extend for a further three years."

Navantia signs TCG Anadolu L400 support framework deal | TURDEF

A new agreement reinforces Türkiye–Spain naval cooperation while sustaining lifecycle support for TCG Anadolu through a flexible maintenance framework.

turdef.com

Anadolu was built in Turkey. But one shouldn't forget that this was made with Navantia's design and expertise. Building complex ships like this is hard.

So we still need technical help from original designers to keep an Assault Ship in working condition. That clearly says that without the help of Navantia our LHD could not have been built to start with.
How do you think we can build an even more difficult and technically challenging ship like an aircraft carrier on our own? As far as I know we have no outside help planned for the MUGEM!
In fact same is the case for MILDEN. Is it not?

 

[Sanchez]

So we still need technical help from original designers to keep an Assault Ship in working condition. That clearly says that without the help of Navantia our LHD could not have been built to start with.
How do you think we can build an even more difficult and technically challenging ship like an aircraft carrier on our own? As far as I know we have no outside help planned for the MUGEM!
In fact same is the case for MILDEN. Is it not?

I have another road I want to mention here. For Anadolu, Sedef used Navantia's design and Sedef was the main contractor. This new deal is directly between navy and Navantia, cutting Sedef out. Because Navantia provided direct expertise to Sedef; Navantia was on paper the junior partner but in reality was the main partner of the program.

Regardless we learned a lot during its construction. Australian ships for example were built in parts in Spain and were fitted out in Australia. We built it from keel up.

Anadolu is a Spanish design, and there are lots of subsystems that are Spanish. Turkish naval construction sector learned a lot in the last 15 years. Anadolu was part of that journey. We will use those lessons on Mugem. Mugem likely will have many issues that will need to be solved by us directly during construction, and more so during fitting out. I have no doubt that we will handle all of them in time.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I have another road I want to mention here. For Anadolu, Sedef used Navantia's design and Sedef was the main contractor. This new deal is directly between navy and Navantia, cutting Sedef out. Because Navantia provided direct expertise to Sedef; Navantia was on paper the junior partner but in reality was the main partner of the program.

Regardless we learned a lot during its construction. Australian ships for example were built in parts in Spain and were fitted out in Australia. We built it from keel up.

View attachment 80021

Anadolu is a Spanish design, and there are lots of subsystems that are Spanish. Turkish naval construction sector learned a lot in the last 15 years. Anadolu was part of that journey. We will use those lessons on Mugem. Mugem likely will have many issues that will need to be solved by us directly during construction, and more so during fitting out. I have no doubt that we will handle all of them in time.

I like your optimism. I hope we will have the financial clout to build an aircraft carrier.
People look at the similar sized aircraft carriers and think, 5-6 billion dollars is something we can afford. Well, today we can’t even afford that. Because we need other weapons to develop and serially produce. We need more submarines. We need more frigates first.

When you look at the specs of MUGEM, yo can see it is similar to the British carriers. Well with today’s money, two ships cost them over 13billion dollars. (when you look at producing only one of a kind ship, it costs more.) So ours could cost well in excess of 6-7 billion dollars with today’s money.

A carrier like MUGEM, when fully fitted with 50 fighter planes, it’s cost could double.
Mind you, we still don’t have a suitable fighter jet to go with a carrier. (That reminds me about TCG Anadolu where TB3s are supposedly operating from it. Has Baykar navalised those TB3s?) . A carrier suitable fighter jet will be much more expensive than the standard version.

So a fully fitted MUGEM with fighter jets should be in excess of 13 billion dollars.

It doesn’t stop there if we are going to set up a battle group; we will need 2-3 x Tepe class destroyers at 1.5 billion each, 2-3 heavy frigates at 0.7 billion each and a couple of MILDENs. Also an auxiliary supply ship.

So we are looking at an outlay of minimum of 20 billion dollars.

I won’t go in to the cost of running these ships each time the carrier groups sail.

check out Abraham Lincoln battle group. I count 20 ships.

 

[Zafer]

We don't need to copy everything other navies are doing we only have a limited coverage

 

[Strong AI]

Just thinking out loud. What if MUGEM will sail as part of NATO ((GB/Italy/Spain) another pact doesn't make sense) until we can learn everything about it and have sufficient number of everything it needs?

 

[Turkic]

Just thinking out loud. What if MUGEM will sail as part of NATO ((GB/Italy/Spain) another pact doesn't make sense) until we can learn everything about it and have sufficient number of everything it needs?

Just as the British do (and that's not a bad idea) but there's a slight problem. What happens when you need to send the strike group to Somalia? Let's say you're fighting against so-called Somaliland, backed up by Israel and UAE financially, politically, and militarily. Will you be able to convince GB, Italy and even Spain? If not, where else would you need to send the strike group with the protection of NATO allies?

 

[AlperTunga]

I like your optimism. I hope we will have the financial clout to build an aircraft carrier.
People look at the similar sized aircraft carriers and think, 5-6 billion dollars is something we can afford. Well, today we can’t even afford that. Because we need other weapons to develop and serially produce. We need more submarines. We need more frigates first.

When you look at the specs of MUGEM, yo can see it is similar to the British carriers. Well with today’s money, two ships cost them over 13billion dollars. (when you look at producing only one of a kind ship, it costs more.) So ours could cost well in excess of 6-7 billion dollars with today’s money.

A carrier like MUGEM, when fully fitted with 50 fighter planes, it’s cost could double.
Mind you, we still don’t have a suitable fighter jet to go with a carrier. (That reminds me about TCG Anadolu where TB3s are supposedly operating from it. Has Baykar navalised those TB3s?) . A carrier suitable fighter jet will be much more expensive than the standard version.

So a fully fitted MUGEM with fighter jets should be in excess of 13 billion dollars.

It doesn’t stop there if we are going to set up a battle group; we will need 2-3 x Tepe class destroyers at 1.5 billion each, 2-3 heavy frigates at 0.7 billion each and a couple of MILDENs. Also an auxiliary supply ship.

So we are looking at an outlay of minimum of 20 billion dollars.

I won’t go in to the cost of running these ships each time the carrier groups sail.

check out Abraham Lincoln battle group. I count 20 ships.

Although I'd also certainly prioritize submarines, USVs, and TF2000, I think your calculation of 20bn is exaggerated on the negative side. Those destroyers, frigates, and MILDEN you are counting in the cost are already needed. The fighter jets are also needed anyhow (they being navalized does not hurt). That 5-6bn dollars will largely be spent domestically, so it will support national production through multiplier effect. The whole thing will be gradually built and not be fully operational before 2035. We will learn quite a bit. If our growth continues similarly, we will be in top 10 countries in terms of total GDP by then. Also, we can use MUGEM in various ways to project power, and also as a springboard to deploy missiles and drones, including Super Simsek for targets that are trying to attack us from a further distance.

 

[AlperTunga]

Although I'd also certainly prioritize submarines, USVs, and TF2000, I think your calculation of 20bn is exaggerated on the negative side. Those destroyers, frigates, and MILDEN you are counting in the cost are already needed. The fighter jets are also needed anyhow (they being navalized does not hurt). That 5-6bn dollars will largely be spent domestically, so it will support national production through multiplier effect. The whole thing will be gradually built and not be fully operational before 2035. We will learn quite a bit. If our growth continues similarly, we will be in top 10 countries in terms of total GDP by then. Also, we can use MUGEM in various ways to project power, and also as a springboard to deploy missiles and drones, including Super Simsek for targets that are trying to attack us from a further distance.

Just to fend off any critics about the prioritization: I meant this in terms of naval assets. The prioritization would change of course considering air and land forces as well. Actually, TF2000 could still be extremely useful as an extension of Steel Dome, especially if it can be equipped with SAMP/T-NG which has a respectable anti-ballistic missile capabilities.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Although I'd also certainly prioritize submarines, USVs, and TF2000, I think your calculation of 20bn is exaggerated on the negative side. Those destroyers, frigates, and MILDEN you are counting in the cost are already needed. The fighter jets are also needed anyhow

You are very much mistaken I am afraid.
Those calculations are done sparingly, taking today’s money in consideration. Come 2030s those figures will have increased pro rata, with inflation.

The destroyers and frigates you have to allocate to your battle group is for the battle group. Your naval force proper has its own destroyers and frigates. They may be used for either job. But in terms of numbers you have to have extra for your battlegroup. Otherwise we end up like Brits, who are having to borrow escort vessels from Dutch Navy because they haven’t produced 12 Daring Class destroyers as planned and only have 6 instead.

You don’t produce navalised fighter jets for your land located airforce. Naval airforce is separate. (That is why there is a Rafale Marine and there is a F35-C)

I hope we will have the finance to afford such extravagance.
But just look at our Assault ship. What makes it a power multiplier is the number and variety of helicopters it has. At the moment we don’t have enough helicopters to place on it. Heck! We had to revert to using land forces’ cast off of 40 + year old obsolete attack helicopters. None of our Chinooks are navalised.
It hasn’t got proper protection either. All it has is 2 old pre used phalanx CIWS. It also needs a Tepe destroyer. Why is it lacking all these? Bad planning? Financial constraints? Bad policies?