Pakistan giving support for China in SCS issue

mulj

Experienced member
Messages
1,989
Reactions
3,245
Nation of residence
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Nation of origin
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Dude, you speak like office accountant, that dont impress me. At the end kf the day ome fact remains, india is permamemt,y screwed coumtry while pakistan still has some chances for sucssess, you can sugarcoat as lomg as you want but this is firm conc,usion for any sane person.
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,765
Reactions
119 19,787
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
But who will bell this proverbial tiger? The common man? Nope:

"The commoner can be slow-boiled and gaslighted you see. Throw some political music chairs games, shield yourself with nuclear weapon brandishing...and voila, cabal perpetuation at low cost."

There has to be some breakthrough up there....

🎵 ...and the men who hold high places, must be the ones who start..... to mold a new reality, closer to the heart....closer to the heart.... 🎵
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,765
Reactions
119 19,787
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Indonesian dare to breakthrough is at two stages, first the fall of Soekarno and crushing all of his mystic power and mandate, clearly showing Indonesia people their leader is human too fragile and tend to be corrupted. Showing there is always seed of evil even among the heart of righteous person.

Second, the fall of Soeharto in which destroying all of the images about powerful political establishment backing up by military power and all of his corrupted elites in which shackle Indonesia political landscape until today actually but nonetheless they are still must obeyed the people demands and rights. The fall of Soeharto not only bring more democracy at almost all level of Indonesian political institution, large scale reform at National pillar like Parliament, Armed Forces, Police Department, Justice Court, and so on but to the very bottom of Indonesian society today is acttually aware of their roles, their rights and their place within society. All of it come from largely free social mobility, the availability of Social ladder and Universal Education system and rights.

Though i am aware, the average Pakistani until today still living under the rules of their elites (especially Politician elites and Mullah) in which is in cahoots with their own military establishment. All of their policy and decision is solely to preserve the balance of power among them and prevent the rise of anomaly within Pakistan society.

Indonesia savings rate = 34%.

Your post has merit and basis.
 

Madokafc

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
5,913
Reactions
4 10,053
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
The WHAT? Education??? *cough* *cough* *cough*

Like it or not, though very lacking at deep knowledge and comprehensive skills, Indonesian education system had going a long way from the five decades ago where only half of population can read and write and most of them in rural area not even knowing National language Bahasa Indonesia. To giving very basic education for many people at scattered thousand Islands with so many contour type and terrain like Indonesia is not easy feat at all afterall.
 

VCheng

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
488
Reactions
537
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Pakistan
There has to be some breakthrough up there....

🎵 ...and the men who hold high places, must be the ones who start..... to mold a new reality, closer to the heart....closer to the heart.... 🎵

Those at the top have it so good, why would they make any changes?
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,765
Reactions
119 19,787
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Those at the top have it so good, why would they make any changes?

Friend, we have had this convo a number of times I think now :p

I mean why is there any change in the world at all over time? People come to power, entrench and solidify for their advantage.....thinking and projecting they are some complete absolute....but they are wrong...and end up being proven wrong. Then the cycle continues down road in another fashion.

They do not recognise the grand power and greater action of truth...and that is their great egotistic folly.

This has always been the great redemption I have seen in my large but ongoing study of the human condition and existence.

It is also why most severe caustic take on politicians and powerbrokers in general as a group....that make the bold agents of change (up there) that infrequently succeeded but succeeded regardless....stand out all the more.

Simply put absolutes are not able to exist in the real world absolutely. It is matter of time and shades of grey seeping in...and that one moment you never saw coming happening and establishing.

While I do throw words like cabal around and have a filter in operation that seemingly only present their negative thinking and consequences.... I do not preclude there is some modicum present to change all that given the chance and opportunity if a spark or several come its way.

So like anywhere else in the world....why would Pakistan be specifically different? Why would there be a complete void of this at highest echelons? It may be a large one, but I don't think its complete...and I don't think its a monolith either, it is a pyramid and the further down you go, there is more progressive grounding like anywhere else. Matter of time something churns and feeds at some juncture.

After all, this could be a post I could go into some detail about how a certain British army captain...that near singlehandedly started a later war with France (such was his arguably misdirected imperfect fierceness with the British side)...was thusly solidly entrenched in his system at the time (definitely the 1% of the 1%)....a promising personal career lay ahead...but we would likely not know his name had the fate of history been more static + cabal-like in that moment of time.

I could go into very large detail about that story, but the details are not the point, so I wont.

What is the point is this imperfect man recognised certain realities and truths quickly even though it likely would have been more convenient (esp without hindsight now) for him to simply stay with the redcoats.

He eventually turned against and fought them...losing against them several times (they were a superpower and one expected to win fairly easily and soon) especially his major debacle at New York.

But he persevered, and you see his tenacity when he survived Valley Forge and made sure as many of his men would too (despite the odds)....and soaked up the small but important hope of Saratoga.

His former foes (whom he had recklessly obliterated a whole encampment of when he was a redcoat captain) the French.... ultimately would help mightily in his cause prevailing and the final victory happening. Strange irony even for the time.

You would not be sitting where you are without such a man working against the system he was verily part of for majority of his life till then.

Lies, narratives and agendas merely mark the time between periods of great truth and action.

We are sometimes justifiably resigned to the likelihood it wont be in our lifetimes, but then again sparks and heat are always preserved in such times....residing in little quiet places all around a land.

After all I have seen my fair share of moments I deeply cherish at our earlier gathering, perfect strangers volunteering a bold yes or no against some established narrative....simply because they knew the truth and would say so.

How quick one was to correct a whole thread about how bad Indians/Hindus all are...when he simply intervened "haha I have been to Bombay, they are not all bad, not even close, I was just a kid...but I saw how one of theirs went out of his way to help my mom find a place for us to stay"....

Nothing the mob threw against him could change his mind on it, they simply did not matter anymore and he could clearly see what they were because he knew the truth you see....he had seen it and lived it.

That is why I choose to often organise Pakistan somewhat into a mind, heart, body, soul just like a person too....like I do for any country....but I find Pakistan's case quite unique and it is why I hold those moments close to me...and I know at some point it will harness them, yes even at the highest level, like every country does when the strange conditions and opportunities align.

As one of my favourite Christmas movies said: Your heart might still be broken, but it isn't gone. If it was gone, you wouldn't be so nice.
 

Indos

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,219
Reactions
1,537
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
Maybe time to install water-cannons on some ships and build them with strengthened bow and collision fenders.

Yup, new coast guard ship that is build by local shipyard, PT Palindo Marine, has been equipped with water cannons.

 

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,503
Solutions
2
Reactions
118 24,893
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Yup, new coast guard ship that is build by local shipyard, PT Palindo Marine, has been equipped with water cannons.

I would expect more flow rate from such a huge vessel, i hope the water pumps are powered by the main engines so the flow rate can get higher when needed.
 
E

ekemenirtu

Guest
I am not sure why this is of any concern to any member.

First of all, Pakistan has no means of altering the balance of power in the South China Sea irrespective of whichever side it decides to throw in their lot with.

As such, Pakistan's support will at most be verbal or diplomatic.

Given Pakistan's enmity/rivalry with India that outnumbers it by almost 7 to 1, it is only natural for Pakistan to align itself with China.

Nobody anywhere in the world is probably naive enough to believe that an alliance of Pakistan with Turkey, or with Indonesia, or with Iran, or with any other country with a Muslim majority can compensate for a possible loss of China as an ally against India.

As we speak or discuss, China and India are involved in a standoff along their disputed borders. No single country anywhere else in the world can geostrategically make up for the loss of China as an ally for Pakistan for this very simple reason along with a few others such as P5 membership (China is a veto wielding Permanent Member of the UN Security Council and a recognized nuclear power with ICBMS in inventory), deep pockets, deep stash of civilian and defence technologies that Pakistan can choose from given the close ties with China.

There is simply nothing wrong or surprising whatsoever in this move.

You may question Indonesian decision to continue to supply palm oil to India when Malaysian palm oil was barred or scarcely imported by India over a comment by Dr Mahathir Mohamed.

You may question Turkish decision to send its troops to Afghanistan for what was merely an American concern. You may also question Pakistani decision to allow its territory to be used by the USA and NATO for invasion of Afghanistan.

You may also question Pakistani failure to form an effective alliance of friendly states at the KL summit where Iran, Pakistan, Qatar, Turkey and hosts Malaysia sent delegations.

You may question Indonesian reluctance or failure to show up at that KL summit.

There is no point in questioning the Pakistani diplomatic or verbal support for China given the immense importance of China for Pakistan.
 

Xenon54

Experienced member
Switzerland Correspondent
Messages
2,181
Reactions
5 6,703
Nation of residence
Switzerland
Nation of origin
Turkey
Seems the iron brother intend to clash against the likes of Malaysia, Indonesia and other, LoL
Pakistan is pretty much dependant on China, they cant speak against it even if they wanted.
It might seem like a logical approach in short term but this dependacy will cost Pakistan dearly in the future, we as friendly people can just warn them, its up to them whether they listen or not.
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,765
Reactions
119 19,787
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
As such, Pakistan's support will at most be verbal or diplomatic.

Point is, why say it out loud? If Pakistan recognises it has no real way to do anything to help PRC in the SCS, why announce support which will only draw more attention to Pakistan's cringey fan-boyish attitude for nothing in return?

It is literally one vote away here on out from being blacklisted at the FATF. All the salivating over F-16s and whatever other nonsense juxtaposes with American and Western resolve to not whitelist Pakistan till it complies genuinely on not funding terrorism (and that is a severe catch 22 and inertia for Pakistani establishment to handle...which is long story on its own).

Grey listing there for years now has already lost it 10's of billions of dollars in effective long term institutional loans (that PRC is in no position to replace, having already commited to the hoohah of the loan ponzi scheme of CPEC). Is China going to replace those loans by this SCS+Uighur statement? Nope it long would have if it could and saw reason to (it is the reason why Pakistan approaches non-Chinese loans from IMF, WB etc in first place)

This statement just opens up more avenue for India to peel Malaysia from the trio...and illustrates one side of Pakistan's abject foreign policy incompetence (i.e sometimes there is such a thing as leaving things unsaid and not entering the muck more for no gain).

A) Palm oil imports already resumed once mahathir was kicked to the side politically,

B) Mahathir admin itself had little to show about the KL summit (since IK was a no show again after big hoohah by him personally) esp. after sticking its neck out stupidly on Kashmir

C) New administration in Malaysia looking to improve relations with India more already

A, B and C adding up already and now with the lackey blab on SCS (which malaysia has stake in) for little to no reason....that means India will gain further impetus to get Malaysia away from the 3 votes at FATF keeping Pakistan off the blacklist. Long term this will be an immense pressure pile on Pakistani economy more than it currently has.

Past SCS and going to other side of the statement, I really don't need to expand on what Pakistan's constant brazen, disgusting lackeying w.r.t China treatment of Turkic Uighurs also does (and importantly not just at govt level) w.r.t its so called soft power outreach to Turkey.

That is a huge part why this forum even formed in the first place. People see you for who you really are past the charade in the end. These all have long term consequences.

These all ought to be large concern to any reasonable Pakistani member (or guest reading)...or any well-wisher/friend of the country.
 

Madokafc

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
5,913
Reactions
4 10,053
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
I am not sure why this is of any concern to any member.

First of all, Pakistan has no means of altering the balance of power in the South China Sea irrespective of whichever side it decides to throw in their lot with.

As such, Pakistan's support will at most be verbal or diplomatic.

Given Pakistan's enmity/rivalry with India that outnumbers it by almost 7 to 1, it is only natural for Pakistan to align itself with China.

Nobody anywhere in the world is probably naive enough to believe that an alliance of Pakistan with Turkey, or with Indonesia, or with Iran, or with any other country with a Muslim majority can compensate for a possible loss of China as an ally against India.

As we speak or discuss, China and India are involved in a standoff along their disputed borders. No single country anywhere else in the world can geostrategically make up for the loss of China as an ally for Pakistan for this very simple reason along with a few others such as P5 membership (China is a veto wielding Permanent Member of the UN Security Council and a recognized nuclear power with ICBMS in inventory), deep pockets, deep stash of civilian and defence technologies that Pakistan can choose from given the close ties with China.

There is simply nothing wrong or surprising whatsoever in this move.

You may question Indonesian decision to continue to supply palm oil to India when Malaysian palm oil was barred or scarcely imported by India over a comment by Dr Mahathir Mohamed.

You may question Turkish decision to send its troops to Afghanistan for what was merely an American concern. You may also question Pakistani decision to allow its territory to be used by the USA and NATO for invasion of Afghanistan.

You may also question Pakistani failure to form an effective alliance of friendly states at the KL summit where Iran, Pakistan, Qatar, Turkey and hosts Malaysia sent delegations.

You may question Indonesian reluctance or failure to show up at that KL summit.

There is no point in questioning the Pakistani diplomatic or verbal support for China given the immense importance of China for Pakistan.

You should know Indonesia at some points and issue doesn't look at Malaysian favorably and that's still going on till today, that's moot when you bringing why Indonesia is in failure not to attend KL summits when Indonesia itself doesn't give much concern about it. But with regard to Pakistan case is very different in nature as one objection of this summit being held to giving support for Pakistan Khasmir issue in which in grandiose way being sabotaged by Pakistan itself and give slap face toward the host Malaysia and Turkey at "suggestion" of GCC's.

You know, it was in the past Pakistan got a more larger and powerful Ally named USA who had giving a large support militarily , diplomatically and economically, but look at what Pakistan do with regard to her allies, Pakistan host the OBL (one who responsible for more than 2000 US citizen lives) near Pakistan military facilities. I giving no damn about Pakistan preference with China over US as their sugar Daddy but to giving much support by formal channel like this one over SCS including China stance and repeated intrusion over Natuna Sea, it was worthy of consideration for my Country to look at what how we treat Pakistan from now on. In which i suggest there is no more unconditional support for Pakistan anymore like what we had shown in 1965 or during Afghanistan Soviet Invasion.
 

xizhimen

Experienced member
Messages
7,391
Reactions
384
Nation of residence
China
Nation of origin
China
it was worthy of consideration for my Country to look at what how we treat Pakistan from now on. In which i suggest there is no more unconditional support for Pakistan anymore like what we had shown in 1965 or during Afghanistan Soviet Invasion.which i suggest there is no more unconditional support for Pakistan anymore like what we had shown in 1965 or during Afghanistan Soviet Invasion.
This is at best your personal opinion, on the government level, China and Indonesia enjoy a very cordial relationship.
 

Gary

Experienced member
Messages
8,361
Reactions
22 12,853
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
This is at best your personal opinion, on the government level, China and Indonesia enjoy a very cordial relationship.
She's talking about Pakistan-Indonesia relations.

Anyway Indonesia-China relations will no longer be pre 2020 cozy. We've found ourself now somewhat officially locked in a dispute regarding the waters North of Natuna. The recent arms purchase is mainly aimed at one country.
 

xizhimen

Experienced member
Messages
7,391
Reactions
384
Nation of residence
China
Nation of origin
China
SCS overlapping claims doesn't affect the relationship among the claimant countries with each other much, China and Philippines are contesting over some islands but Philippines still enjoy a good relationship with China, a better one than with US. Malaysia also gets along very well with China.
 

xizhimen

Experienced member
Messages
7,391
Reactions
384
Nation of residence
China
Nation of origin
China
People should not demand Pakistan to downgrade relationship with China while their own countries all enjoy very cordial ones with China.
 
Top Bottom