TR Politics

[Saithan]

I don’t think it is fitting for FM to put so much emotional value in his tweet or messages on Iran or others except AZ and TC.

3 lawmakers resign from Turkey’s main opposition CHP

Three lawmakers from Turkey’s main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) resigned Friday over a disagreement with the party’s leadership and its...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[adenl]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356296599991951360

 

[Deliorman]

So now Erdo doesn’t like the Amazing Constitution he made 5 years ago and now wants a new one?

 

[what]

So now Erdo doesn’t like the Amazing Constitution he made 5 years ago and now wants a new one?

Makes you wonder what rights he's going to give himself this time, that he already doesnt have.

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356296599991951360

Interesting how he has to consult Ultranationalists.

Ultranationalists run the show.

 

[Saithan]

CHP leader criticizes govt’s agricultural policies - Türkiye News

The government is not taking necessary measures for the protection of Turkish farmers who are severely suffering from the economic decline, the main opposition leader has said, urging agriculture associations to put pressure on the government to get fresh subsidies.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com

 

[Ryder]

Most of them are all like this from this damn meme.

 

[Sinan]

View attachment 13310

Most of them are all like this from this damn meme.

Not leftiest but people who say these are the leftist variant in HDP...less than %1 of Turkey.

 

[CAN_TR]

What i don't understand is how these so called peace loving Leftists can support warmongers like Biden

 

[Ryder]

What i don't understand is how these so called peace loving Leftists can support warmongers like Biden

They also support pkk not to mention on facebook once I came across leftists supporting the shining path terrorist group. Look these filth up they just as bad as isis and aq.

Also a lot of them worship che guevara.

 

[Sinan]

Just for laugh.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357040691021557765

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356657680795004931

Same problem when it comes to Turkiye.

 

[Saiyan0321]

Makes you wonder what rights he's going to give himself this time, that he already doesnt have.

Khalifa.. He has the Pakistani fanboys vote but on a serious note i have a couple of questions from my turkish brethren on this to get a better understanding of Turkish politics.

Can Turkey declare the entire constitution defunct and prepare a completely new one because i was under the impression that the constitutional changes brought through referendums changed the constitution greatly yet did not change the entire constitutional document like the 18th amendment changed nearly 1/3rd of the Pakistani constitution and brought grand changes into the constitution and changed the very nature of the country but it still remained the 1973 constitution. Here it seems that he wants to bring forth an absolutely new document so can Turkey do that? Is the Turkish constitutional setup that flexible? (in case there is a misunderstanding, this isnt a chide remark. Constitutions are divided into Rigid, semi-rigid and Flexible. Like we have a rigid constitution since amending it requires 2/3rd majorioty, assembly cant amend certain sections etc. etc.)

Secondly

There must be some talk on the Turkish news channels and Turkish legal circles about what form of changes the government wishes to propose or bring forth. Is there any idea? Surely there must be some talk, sources and analysis?

Lastly and this is the fan boys

Will turkey continue the secular nature of the constitution or will he introduce Islamic nature? What are the chances of this happening? Most Pakistanis on PDF basically know either Turkey of when it was fighting crusaders in Anatolia or was the Ottoman. If Attaturk wasnt a staunch secular nationalist, he would be called Ghazi Attaurk by them, so you all as turk, who live there or have the most contacts there or know the people there, how do you see the an Islamic republic and whether this is what Erdogan wants to do and whether this is acceptable to the Turkish People?

@Kaptaan you are welcome as well to answer.

 

[mulj]

it can be both.

 

[Saiyan0321]

it can be both.

That is not an unheard of concept. Most notable example being the Irish constitution whose premable holds

"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial..."

and we have multiple Articles within that constitution that mentions God repeatedly and how the divine power is being used by the state yet in its Article 44 it restricts the government greatly and in a very secular manner especially after the fifth amendment of 1972 which removed Article 44 item 1 and brought Item 2. and this was a massive secular move but here is the thing and this is where we deviate.

Ireland was originally a Catholic religious state that slowly through Socio-Political changes went through secularization and then amended the constitution to become secular, a great example of how to make a religious document into a secular one, something Pakistan can take great lessons from.

So here we see the gradual movement towards Secularism. Turkey did the same thing, the 1924 Constitution brought forth by Attaurk actually held that state religion will be Islam which was amended in 1929 by Attaturk himself so here we also see, perhaps an immediate but nevertheless, movement towards secular constitutionalism.

The difference here is that if the new constitution is Islamic then we are leaving secularism and heading towards religious state constitutionalism. So you see the difference of direction. There are many examples of religious constitutions in secular states but those constitutions have been amended to become secular thus forming an ambiguous nature but here we have a secular state incorporating religious principles which will have, ofcourse create different waves and impacts.

 

[mulj]

That is not an unheard of concept. Most notable example being the Irish constitution whose premable holds

"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial..."

and we have multiple Articles within that constitution that mentions God repeatedly and how the divine power is being used by the state yet in its Article 44 it restricts the government greatly and in a very secular manner especially after the fifth amendment of 1972 which removed Article 44 item 1 and brought Item 2. and this was a massive secular move but here is the thing and this is where we deviate.

Ireland was originally a Catholic religious state that slowly through Socio-Political changes went through secularization and then amended the constitution to become secular, a great example of how to make a religious document into a secular one, something Pakistan can take great lessons from.

So here we see the gradual movement towards Secularism. Turkey did the same thing, the 1924 Constitution brought forth by Attaurk actually held that state religion will be Islam which was amended in 1929 by Attaturk himself so here we also see, perhaps an immediate but nevertheless, movement towards secular constitutionalism.

The difference here is that if the new constitution is Islamic then we are leaving secularism and heading towards religious state constitutionalism. So you see the difference of direction. There are many examples of religious constitutions in secular states but those constitutions have been amended to become secular thus forming an ambiguous nature but here we have a secular state incorporating religious principles which will have, ofcourse create different waves and impacts.

i am fond of first concept, what is important is firm constitutional frame which will provide instruments to nulify foreign influences particulary speaking i mean on various modern invented so called human rights concepts propagated from west, i am not even against that if people choose that way to but first you need to catch up with material wealth in comparation with them in order to ponder about those concepts, if you incorporate that now it will have catastrophic influence on social and cultural tissue, which will turn you in constant internal battles, that drains social resources and even wealthy west hardly cope with that. that is why it is important to multiangle approach not just yelling secular, secular, secular, which kind of reminds on religion concept itself and by many modern thinkers it actually is one.

 

[Kaptaan]

I let the Turks first answer your question but from what I have seen in Istanbul Turkey is on the socio-political tranjectory as any other European country only that it's tradition will have Islamic flavour to it. But in practically purposes Turkey will be a European society.Meaning if you want to pray five times a day and have your wife covered like a tent that is fine but if she chooses to walk around half naked that is fine also. Freedom. This is what I saw in Istanbul.

To be sure it is not where London is today. For examoles gays still come under pressure but then that was the case in UK only few decades. By 2040 Turkey will be a mature liberal European society with a political and legal order reflecting that. Erdogan is the past and not the future.

 

[Kaptaan]

Let me expand on where I think Turkey is heading toward without without getting embroiled in internal Turkish politics. To understand that you have to look at religion in the wider European sphere. Even today Christianity does inform Western society. Not as a dogma but more as a tradition and historical experiance that went into informing modern Europe. I would call these countries post-Christian. They still will call themselves Christian or Judo-Christian civilization even if they don't follow the dogma of religion.

For instance many parties in Europe carry the title "Christian" like Christian Democratic Union of Germany.

Christian Democratic Union of Germany - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The defining differance between religion as practiced in Europe and Pakistan is dogma is not inflicted on the countries. Many European leaders like Blair of UK are very religious but are kept away from forcing their dogmatic views onto the national politics. No doubt indirectly that might well seep into political choices. I believe Turkey is the first Muslim country that is about to graduate to this European version of liberal democracy.#

This means even putatively religious party like AKP simiiar to German Christian Democratic Union Party will not force dogma on the Turkish nation. A studied secular space will be retained. Prior to Erdogan taking over Turkey was not like Western Europe. Instead Turkey was prejudicial to Muslims. For instance in London you can wear a veil but you could not do it in Turkish public spaces. Erdogan has brought in true secularism.

In future Turkey will be a country united around Turkishness even if it individuals are athiest, strict Muslims, gays or whatever. All will be taken in as citizens in a equal Turkey.

 

[mulj]

Let me expand on where I think Turkey is heading toward without without getting embroiled in internal Turkish politics. To understand that you have to look at religion in the wider European sphere. Even today Christianity does inform Western society. Not as a dogma but more as a tradition and historical experiance that went into informing modern Europe. I would call these countries post-Christian. They still will call themselves Christian or Judo-Christian civilization even if they don't follow the dogma of religion.

For instance many parties in Europe carry the title "Christian" like Christian Democratic Union of Germany.

Christian Democratic Union of Germany - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The defining differance between religion as practiced in Europe and Pakistan is dogma is not inflicted on the countries. Many European leaders like Blair of UK are very religious but are kept away from forcing their dogmatic views onto the national politics. No doubt indirectly that might well seep into political choices. I believe Turkey is the first Muslim country that is about to graduate to this European version of liberal democracy.#

This means even putatively religious party like AKP simiiar to German Christian Democratic Union Party will not force dogma on the Turkish nation. A studied secular space will be retained. Prior to Erdogan taking over Turkey was not like Western Europe. Instead Turkey was prejudicial to Muslims. For instance in London you can wear a veil but you could not do it in Turkish public spaces. Erdogan has brought in true secularism.

In future Turkey will be a country united around Turkishness even if it individuals are athiest, strict Muslims, gays or whatever. All will be taken in as citizens in a equal Turkey.

I disagree, islam is not christianity, my opinion is before ditching out religion from context is first to move away from imposed or selfimposed inferiority complex of secular elites and maybe they are not religous like in past but those states are still firmly built amd operated by christian norms. Islam has more to offer in that regard, strange how muslim people are blind and ignorant to that fact in general.

 

[Saithan]

I disagree, islam is not christianity, my opinion is before ditching out religion from context is first to move away from imposed or selfimposed inferiority complex of secular elites and maybe they are not religous like in past but those states are still firmly built amd operated by christian norms. Islam has more to offer in that regard, strange how muslim people are blind and ignorant to that fact in general.

I disagree that the previous seculars haf inferiority complex. They tried to keep backwards thinking islamism from spreading. Something akind to how some people in rural places would vote on religious parties, because of religion.

People should evaluate and vote on people who will improve the country. In the past parties were required to make a pamphlet detailing their goals and people could hold them up on it.

Though it was a mistake preventing girls with veils from attending universities, that was too much.