TR Politics

[Xenon54]

Check my comments a little better. I mentioned that the expulsion of Turkish populations from the Balkans and Greek populations from Anatolia is criminal and reprehensible. I think what i am saying is clear! A local is considered to be someone who lives in a place and comes from it genealogically, that is, his parents and grandparents lived there. It is not considered local only a people who live in an area for 700 or 1,700 years. Nor did i support such views.

Well, i think my english is good enough to comprehend that what you say here is that Turks wouldt have been expelled if they didnt settle down in balkans in the first place.

But do not forget that all these populations settled in the Balkans after the victorious wars waged by the Ottoman Empire against the Byzantine Empire and the Empires of Central Europe. With the war, the countries that rightfully owned these lands expelled the Turks from the Balkans. A total of 5,000,000-7,000,000 Turks emigrated from the Balkans during the period 1783-2016, of which 4,000,000 had emigrated by 1924. Of the 5,000,000-7,000,000 Turks, 1,500,000 lived in Bulgaria and 1,200,000 in Greece. If these Turkish populations never lived in the Balkans then there would not be all this uprooting.

Its like me saying ''if the jews were not rich then nazis wouldnt have killed them for their money, but its a crime though.''

 

[Foulgrim]

Well, i think my english is good enough to comprehend that what you say here is that Turks wouldt have been expelled if they didnt settle down in balkans in the first place.



Its like me saying ''if the jews were not rich then nazis wouldnt have killed them for their money, but its a crime though.''

I do not mean it the way you say it. I say that if the Greeks, Slavs and Bosnians in the Balkans had not been expelled for the relocation of the Ottoman Turks then there would have been no "retaliation" in the Balkan Wars and World War I.

 

[Tornadoss]

I do not mean it the way you say it. I say that if the Greeks, Slavs and Bosnians in the Balkans had not been expelled for the relocation of the Ottoman Turks then there would have been no "retaliation" in the Balkan Wars and World War I.

There was no such expulsion during the expansion of the Ottomans.

 

[CAN_TR]

I do not mean it the way you say it. I say that if the Greeks, Slavs and Bosnians in the Balkans had not been expelled for the relocation of the Ottoman Turks then there would have been no "retaliation" in the Balkan Wars and World War I.

1. Bosnians = Slavic

2. There was no expelling of Greeks, Slavs etc. in order to relocate Turks.

"Retalliation" for what if we wanted there wouldn't be any Greeks left, if Turks conquered Greece we could have put everyone to the sword, Mongol style. You basically murdered civillians and your national heroes boasted themselves how they cut the bellies of pregnant women and feed the unborn children to dogs, and crushed the heads of captured children on rocks.

When Turks "genocided" Greeks during WW1 then we theoretically could justify it with "retalliation" for previous massacres against Turks, did i understand you right?

 

[Xenon54]

I do not mean it the way you say it. I say that if the Greeks, Slavs and Bosnians in the Balkans had not been expelled for the relocation of the Ottoman Turks then there would have been no "retaliation" in the Balkan Wars and World War I.

Its the first time i heard that any natives from balkans got expelled by Ottomans, even if then it would be small isolated cases but for sure nothing to justify an ethnic cleansing, if there is any ecuse to begin with ofcourse.

 

[CAN_TR]

All of it was HATE related, they didn't even spared Albanians/Arvanites or Jews.

 

[Foulgrim]

There was no such expulsion during the expansion of the Ottomans.

You may not have expelled the local population during the Ottoman Empire but you did something much worse! You created the Janissary army by altering their faith and racial identity from childhood. This was systematically done by the Ottoman Empire in the areas it conquered in order not to "sacrifice" tribal Turks in the wars.

 

[CAN_TR]

You may not have expelled the local population during the Ottoman Empire but you did something much worse! You created the Janissary army by altering their faith and racial identity from childhood. This was systematically done by the Ottoman Empire in the areas it conquered in order not to "sacrifice" tribal Turks in the wars.

No the Jannissary Corp was similar to the Varangian Guards of the Byzantines or the Pretorians of the Roman Empire and Knights Hospitaller of Christian militaries.

Not all children were taken by force, many families in poor regions even bribed officials to take a son since a Jannissary was a educated statemen or highly skilled soldier who may return as Governor, Genreal or even Viziers. A poor farmer boy had the chance to reach high ranked military or administration positions. Sokollu Mehmed Pasa a Bosnian-Serb origin Jannisarry literally reigned the Empire for over a decade btw.

Was it inhumane to take away the children from their families, sure, does it justify a mass slaughter and expulsion of people who lived there for centuries, no but it seems it does for you.

The Janissaries were definitely not created because saving tribal Turks from wars, as if the Ottoman Army was only Jannisaries, not to mention that they were always the best equipped and paid units, they were raised and trained under strict discipline and complete loyality to the Sultan. You don't talk with facts but pure nonsense made up stories.

 

[Foulgrim]

No the Jannissary Corp was similar to the Varangian Guards of the Byzantines or the Pretorians of the Roman Empire and Knights Hospitaller of Christian militaries.

Not all children were taken by force, many families in poor regions even bribed officials to take a son since a Jannissary was a educated statemen or highly skilled soldier who may return as Governor, Genreal or even Viziers. A poor farmer boy had the chance to reach high ranked military or administration positions. Sokollu Mehmed Pasa a Bosnian-Serb origin Jannisarry literally reigned the Empire for over a decade btw.

Was it inhumane to take away the children from their families, sure, does it justify a mass slaughter and expulsion of people who lived there for centuries, no but it seems it does for you.

The Janissaries were definitely not created because saving tribal Turks from wars, as if the Ottoman Army was only Jannisaries, not to mention that they were always the best equipped and paid units, they were raised and trained under strict discipline and complete loyality to the Sultan. You don't talk with facts but pure nonsense made up stories.

"Janissaries began as elite corps made up through the devşirme system of child levy, by which Albanians, Armenians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Croats, Greeks, and Serbs were taken, levied, circumcised and converted to Islam, and incorporated into the Ottoman army."

Janissary - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The Varangian Guard was an elite unit of the Byzantine Army from the tenth to the fourteenth century. The members served as personal bodyguards to the Byzantine emperors. The Varangian Guard was known for being primarily composed of recruits from northern Europe, including mainly Norsemen from Scandinavia but also Anglo-Saxons from England. The recruitment of distant foreigners from outside Byzantium to serve as the emperor's personal guard was pursued as a deliberate policy, as they lacked local political loyalties and could be counted upon to suppress revolts by disloyal Byzantine factions."

Varangian Guard - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

King Basil II, distrustful of the Byzantine guards, whose obedience often changed with fatal consequences and in combination with the proven obedience of the Varangians, who had previously served Byzantium, led the emperor to hire them as his personal guard. Over the years, new recruits from Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland maintained a Scandinavian hue in the Order until the end of the 11th century.
The quality difference between these two cases is typical!

 

[Anastasius]

Expulsion and massacres of Turks and other Turkish-aligned minorities from the Balkans was definitely not justified. However, let's not stoop to the level of claiming that the Janissary system was OK in any way. Some people paid to have their children accepted because it was better than living in squalor but that's like saying that Roman slavery was OK because slaves could fight to the death in the gladiator arena for entertainment and eventually earn their freedom that way. Still a pretty horrible system and a sign of how far we have come as a race that such actions are looked down upon today.

The big similarity is that the Varangian Guard and the Janissaries both ended up gaining extensive political power and abusing it.

I don't think Foulgrim intended to offend anyone. There are a-holes who claim that "good, Turks were murdered and raped and tortured and driven out of their homes" and that their suffering doesn't count but he doesn't seem to be supporting that line of thought.

 

[Xenon54]

You may not have expelled the local population during the Ottoman Empire but you did something much worse! You created the Janissary army by altering their faith and racial identity from childhood. This was systematically done by the Ottoman Empire in the areas it conquered in order not to "sacrifice" tribal Turks in the wars.

And thats the justification?
Every nation has negative aspects in its past, including Greeks, just get over it instead of repeating the same things over and over again to gain the moral high ground which you certainly dont have.

 

[Tornadoss]

What is done is done. That janissary thing is a medieval thing in an Empire. Worse things were happening around that time.

 

[Nilgiri]

Partition from empire to nationstate era is never pretty. An empire is just not a nationstate most of the time.

There is lot of strife and pain that will carry on....populations suddenly migrated or were ejected....and there is always lot of atrocity and massacres involved.

However way it was initiated and sustained on (ethnic line, religion line, prior-historic line, new nationalist line etc etc) by those that had the time and buffer to expend and expand on it....and the folks on the ground that actually have to confront this that dont have the time and buffer to counter, challenge and mitigate it.

Everything becomes a zero sum reductivist emotionalist tribalist extremist game on the ground in the end....hence the worst human crimes happen at scale and downstream people have their perception of all of it depending on which downstream side they are born into.

You build up trust, tolerance and cohesion over long time and it can go just like that in few short years. That in itself carries a huge emotional weight and inertia....how could my neighbours who I fed and fed me and my ancestors....betray and back stab like this so suddenly???

The collective punishment and revenge on all.....everyone must fit black and white way....zero sum. Everyone of theirs is culpable...and all of us are not....

The very term brought up earlier "muhacir".....is near exact word found in one country of Indian subcontinent ....w.r.t "muhajir".....another terrible partition....with lingering memories and perceptions.....conflated and distorted in all manner of ways now to anyone that can arise above it.....or maybe look at it with fresh removed, neutral cold eyes.




It is somewhat quite freakishly coincidental that as I type this, I am listening to a nice German song reminiscing about Silesia....

I read most of them moved to Ruhr valley after WW2 ended and Poland forcibly evicted them nearly all of them (not a small number....and involved crime just the same as other examples worldwide...and the larger crimes preceding it that WW2 itself involved).


....I wonder what one of them thinks when he hears it....

"Mein Schlesierland, mein Heimatland!
So von Natur, Natur in alter Weise,
wir sehn uns wieder, mein Schlesierland
wir sehn uns wieder, mein Heimatland!"


An earlier similar kind of thing for founding father of Turkey:

We commemorate the great Turkish leader Atatürk with longing and gratitude

defencehub.live

 

[Foulgrim]

Expulsion and massacres of Turks and other Turkish-aligned minorities from the Balkans was definitely not justified. However, let's not stoop to the level of claiming that the Janissary system was OK in any way. Some people paid to have their children accepted because it was better than living in squalor but that's like saying that Roman slavery was OK because slaves could fight to the death in the gladiator arena for entertainment and eventually earn their freedom that way. Still a pretty horrible system and a sign of how far we have come as a race that such actions are looked down upon today.

The big similarity is that the Varangian Guard and the Janissaries both ended up gaining extensive political power and abusing it.

I don't think Foulgrim intended to offend anyone. There are a-holes who claim that "good, Turks were murdered and raped and tortured and driven out of their homes" and that their suffering doesn't count but he doesn't seem to be supporting that line of thought.

I could not support such a thing obviously because there is no logic to do so. The massacres and genocides in the 21st century can not be justified as "well done" by any normal-minded person. When i refer to Turkey or the Ottoman Empire for massacres and genocides, i say with the reasoning that it is good for the Turks when they point the finger at Greece for other issues (eg Asia Minor Campaign) to look a little at their own black past. Obviously i do not think that only the Ottomans have done all this and Greece with the Byzantine Empire are the innocent angels.

 

[Foulgrim]

And thats the justification?
Every nation has negative aspects in its past, including Greeks, just get over it instead of repeating the same things over and over again to gain the moral high ground which you certainly dont have.

I can not see the massacres and genocides as justice. But the practices of the Ottoman Empire for centuries against the local populations of the Balkans brought the corresponding retaliation in the Balkan Wars against the Turkish population. Everything in history is connected and this systematic alteration of the population religiously and racially by the Ottomans turned them into a boomerang.

 

[Anastasius]

Summit for Democracy 2021: Invited Participants - United States Department of State

Summit for Democracy 2021: Invited Participants Albania Angola Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Armenia Australia Austria Bahamas Barbados Belgium Belize Botswana Brazil Bulgaria Cabo Verde Canada Chile Colombia Costa Rica Croatia Cyprus Czech Republic Democratic Republic of Congo Denmark Dominica...

www.state.gov

Biden's "Democracy" summit invitation list. A very curious absence of a certain capital T country.

 

[Lool]

Summit for Democracy 2021: Invited Participants - United States Department of State

Summit for Democracy 2021: Invited Participants Albania Angola Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Armenia Australia Austria Bahamas Barbados Belgium Belize Botswana Brazil Bulgaria Cabo Verde Canada Chile Colombia Costa Rica Croatia Cyprus Czech Republic Democratic Republic of Congo Denmark Dominica...

www.state.gov

Biden's "Democracy" summit invitation list. A very curious absence of a certain capital T country.

I know that Erdo leans towards the authoritarian spectrum but honestly mate, you seriously need to stop believing these fiascos for Gods sake
Seriously, it amazes me how ppl believe in these shitty propagandas, loool
Biden is just trying to save face since his ratings in the opinion polls are getting worse. If Biden truly cared about democracy, he should first sanction MBS for killing an american-based Journalist (I do remember that he did have the green card after all)
Biden's democracy summit is a gathering of all the countries pro-US with fair elections and that is it!

I mean, Israel with its dodgy human rights record is there. Georgia which prisoned their former president and none knows his current state is there. Hell! India and Pakistan are there for Gods sake! And I assure you that Turkey is more democratic than any of them. Turkey has a party supporting terrorists in its fqing Parliament ffs; but no!! Turkey is bad for killing PKK. No!! Turkey is bad for entering into Syria to prevent terrorism inside Turkey. No!! Turkey is bad for protecting its MAVI VATAN. No!! Turkey is bad for supporting Turkish Cyprus!. No!! Turkey is bad for supporting Azerbaijan

Honestly, The US under Biden, became an even greater fiasco than it was under Trump

 

[Turko]

May i ask Greek moderator not to pollute here.


Threat from AKP advisor to those protesting about the problem of living: Just one word from our President, then the streets are full

Yusuf Özoğul deleted the post he made last night today

Yusuf Özoğul, Advisor to the Chairman of the AKP Headquarters Youth Branch, described those who took to the streets against the cost of living as "unlimited people" and openly threatened them with the words, "A word from our President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the streets are full, know your place."

Yusuf Özoğul, the Advisor to the Chairman of the AKP Headquarters Youth Branch, threatened the people who took to the streets against the increase in foreign exchange and the high cost of living.

Özoğul, using the hashtags "#RecepTayyipErdoğan" and "#DevletiminYanindayim" to support the government, in his post on his personal Twitter, said, "I remind the unbelievers pouring into the streets of July 15. Take a word from our President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the streets are full, know your place." .

Yusuf Özoğul deleted the post he made yesterday evening (November 23) while the street protests were going on, which caused great reactions.

While distributing an AKP brochure in Pendik before the 2019 local elections, Özoğul became a hot topic on social media because of his attitude towards a person who reacted to him, and later started to work at the AKP Headquarters Youth Branch with the new assignment of his party.

AKP'li danışmandan geçim derdi protestosu yapanlara tehdit: Sayın Cumhurbaşkanımızın bir kelimesine bakar sokakların dolması

Yusuf Özoğul, dün akşam yaptığı paylaşımı bugün sildi

t24.com.tr

 

[Anastasius]

I know that Erdo leans towards the authoritarian spectrum but honestly mate, you seriously need to stop believing these fiascos for Gods sake
Seriously, it amazes me how ppl believe in these shitty propagandas, loool
Biden is just trying to save face since his ratings in the opinion polls are getting worse. If Biden truly cared about democracy, he should first sanction MBS for killing an american-based Journalist (I do remember that he did have the green card after all)
Biden's democracy summit is a gathering of all the countries pro-US with fair elections and that is it!

I mean, Israel with its dodgy human rights record is there. Georgia which prisoned their former president and none knows his current state is there. Hell! India and Pakistan are there for Gods sake! And I assure you that Turkey is more democratic than any of them. Turkey has a party supporting terrorists in its fqing Parliament ffs; but no!! Turkey is bad for killing PKK. No!! Turkey is bad for entering into Syria to prevent terrorism inside Turkey. No!! Turkey is bad for protecting its MAVI VATAN. No!! Turkey is bad for supporting Turkish Cyprus!. No!! Turkey is bad for supporting Azerbaijan

Honestly, The US under Biden, became an even greater fiasco than it was under Trump

Dude, what the hell are you on about? Do you think I posted that out of some "Turkey is not democratic, bwahahaha" mentality or to point out that the US government under Biden has a hate boner against Turkey? Who do you take me for? I'm willing to bet I care a hell of a lot more for Turkey's success and survival than you do since the fate of Azerbaijan indirectly depends on it.

 

[CAN_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463566341856759813