TR Propulsion Systems

[Hasanrize]

The Altay tank was a real serious project for us, since we couldn't procure any more tanks due to the embargoes. Yet, it was far less complex than a turbofan, yet since 2007 a single tank is yet to be produced. How much more money and time needs to be sunk before we get to replace our aging tank fleet? And the thing is well obsolete, before it has come out yet. Looking at this, the far more complex task of developing a turbofan wholly indigenously? ..Yeah. As for your previous post, you can only crush so much money until you're broke. As for our friends so called "support", it will end up same fate as the Altay. No thanks. I do pray that the cooperation does not fall apart because if it does, with that other thing going on which I will not mention, we'll have a real predicament in our hands.

There is this saying all the time "There is plenty of countries that can make aircraft, yet only a handful of them can produce engine because it is more difficult than the aircraft itself." So, if we use the same thinking, there is only one country on Earth that produces a 1500 hp diesel engine and transmission for it, this suggests that the engine of Altay is at least not simpler than a jet engine. South Korea is becoming the second country hopefully for that power pack.

 

[Windchime]

However, right now there is only one company with two stealth engine models that achieved upwards of 30k lbf

Two, since GE made a flight-worthy prototypes of both the ATF and JSF. In fact, F120 even had a greater thrust than the F119.

South Korea is becoming the second country hopefully for that power pack.

US had some very mature 1200~1500hp diesel engine designs in the 20th century. It's just that those designs were not selected in favor of the AGT1500. Nowadays those manufacturers which offered US diesel engines for M1 either merged or stopped operating but considering the diesel engine expertise that exist in the US, as shown by Caterpillar and co, it is hard to argue that they are not capable of developing and manufacturing a 1500hp powerpack today if they already did it decades ago. Japan also did it with their Type 90, albeit it was 2-stroke. Based on the information regarding 8VA4WTK engine and MT1200 transmission of Type 10, I'd say Japan is fully capable of designing and manufacturing a 4-stroke 1500hp powerpack if they needed it. Same could be said about France, Italy and the UK but they've got no issues with using Renk transmissions. Not to mention, Russia and China have their respective powerpacks with domestic design.

Anyways, if what you've meant was "1500hp powerpack offered on the international market", then it'll be correct to say that Korea is trying to become the second supplier after Germany.

 

[Gary]

Two, since GE made a flight-worthy prototypes of both the ATF and JSF. In fact, F120 even had a greater thrust than the F119.

The XA100 is at whopping 44K lbs

XA100 | GE Aerospace

XA100

www.geaerospace.com

in the past the Russians had their own 3 streams adapatable cycle engine, the original AL-41 rated at 40K lbf

Saturn AL-41 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[blackjack]

The XA100 is at whopping 44K lbs

XA100 | GE Aerospace

XA100

www.geaerospace.com

in the past the Russians had their own 3 streams adapatable cycle engine, the original AL-41 rated at 40K lbf

Saturn AL-41 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think I will just break down Russian and U.S. engine technology and the funny part is I think it might be beneficial for the TFX thread because excluding the UK and US, Russia might be a possible dark horse for being Turkey's 3rd option and based on current politics I have seen with Turkey I think no one can overlook that possibility.

The Ferry range of the F-22 is 3,200kms with 2 external fuel tanks giving using 12,000kg, Su-57 has a 10,300 kg internal fuel load no external tanks and ferry ranges based on sources 3,500-3,600kms but it can't super cruise like the F-22 so it has high bypass ratio engines than low bypass ratio engines, and they chose that engine design because they have a shit load of territory to cover which is why I am assuming that I think turkey shouldn't have a problem creating an engine like the F-22.

«Изделие 30»: в чём уникальность нового двигателя для российского самолёта Су-57

11 ноября 2016 года состоялся первый наземный запуск двигателя-демонстратора «Изделие 30». Силовая установка предназначена для оснащения российского истребителя пятого поколения Су-57. Сейчас этот самолёт летает на промежуточном агрегате АЛ-41Ф1. По оценкам разработчиков, «Изделие 30»...

russian.rt.com

Answering the question of RT about the prospects for the export of "Products 30", the major general said that with the deployment of serial production, it is reasonable to focus on equipping the second stage of the Russian fleet with engines. In the future, as Popov argues, Russia can export the power unit to China, India, Turkey, Argentina and Brazil.

Su-57 is undergoing a modernization program called project Megapolis which will test new engines and avionics from 2022-2024. And this 2nd stage engines adds more fuel efficiency for a longer range while having the capabilities to super cruise. No idea if Turkey could bribe them the blueprints for the 2nd stage engine.

Personally, I don't think the engine technology of the XA100 is comparable at all to the AL-41. It does not say the AL-41 has a 3-stream cycle engine, "but an adaptive engine". Lyulka has started bench tests on it last year. https://defencehub.live/threads/russia-3-stream-cycle-engines.11702/ its a three cycle adaptive engine, the XA100 is also a three cycle adaptive engine.

Also this is why I am confused about some users saying it will take Turkey 20 years to be on the same level as other 5th gens on engines but currently I dont give a shit about that since the concern is if turkey can domestically make an engine like the F-119(the F-100 engine design and flight seemed fast but hard to get data on timelength for F-119) they don't have to get fancy yet like the above two countries, Because whoever they get their engines from can always whine to sanction or stop selling equipment and we got a general idea which of those countries are because Turkey chooses its own interests over the interests others might have in a geopolitical situation.

 

[Boykaz]

Does Ukraine have a jet engine suitable for the TF-X? And if the war in Ukraine ends, we can sell the TF-X to the Ukrainian air force or become a partner in the project, does that make sense?

 

[B_A]

I think I will just break down Russian and U.S. engine technology and the funny part is I think it might be beneficial for the TFX thread because excluding the UK and US, Russia might be a possible dark horse for being Turkey's 3rd option and based on current politics I have seen with Turkey I think no one can overlook that possibility.

The Ferry range of the F-22 is 3,200kms with 2 external fuel tanks giving using 12,000kg, Su-57 has a 10,300 kg internal fuel load no external tanks and ferry ranges based on sources 3,500-3,600kms but it can't super cruise like the F-22 so it has high bypass ratio engines than low bypass ratio engines, and they chose that engine design because they have a shit load of territory to cover which is why I am assuming that I think turkey shouldn't have a problem creating an engine like the F-22.

«Изделие 30»: в чём уникальность нового двигателя для российского самолёта Су-57

11 ноября 2016 года состоялся первый наземный запуск двигателя-демонстратора «Изделие 30». Силовая установка предназначена для оснащения российского истребителя пятого поколения Су-57. Сейчас этот самолёт летает на промежуточном агрегате АЛ-41Ф1. По оценкам разработчиков, «Изделие 30»...

russian.rt.com

Answering the question of RT about the prospects for the export of "Products 30", the major general said that with the deployment of serial production, it is reasonable to focus on equipping the second stage of the Russian fleet with engines. In the future, as Popov argues, Russia can export the power unit to China, India, Turkey, Argentina and Brazil.

Su-57 is undergoing a modernization program called project Megapolis which will test new engines and avionics from 2022-2024. And this 2nd stage engines adds more fuel efficiency for a longer range while having the capabilities to super cruise. No idea if Turkey could bribe them the blueprints for the 2nd stage engine.

Personally, I don't think the engine technology of the XA100 is comparable at all to the AL-41. It does not say the AL-41 has a 3-stream cycle engine, "but an adaptive engine". Lyulka has started bench tests on it last year. https://defencehub.live/threads/russia-3-stream-cycle-engines.11702/ its a three cycle adaptive engine, the XA100 is also a three cycle adaptive engine.

Also this is why I am confused about some users saying it will take Turkey 20 years to be on the same level as other 5th gens on engines but currently I dont give a shit about that since the concern is if turkey can domestically make an engine like the F-119(the F-100 engine design and flight seemed fast but hard to get data on timelength for F-119) they don't have to get fancy yet like the above two countries, Because whoever they get their engines from can always whine to sanction or stop selling equipment and we got a general idea which of those countries are because Turkey chooses its own interests over the interests others might have in a geopolitical situation.

i am not a expert but i heard that traditionally Russian engines had a far shorter life time than American one,
had that problem sovled?

 

[Ryder]

Does Ukraine have a jet engine suitable for the TF-X? And if the war in Ukraine ends, we can sell the TF-X to the Ukrainian air force or become a partner in the project, does that make sense?

Ukraine will be spending a lot of money on its reconstruction when the war ends.

I doubt they will be spending on defence cooperation.

 

[Yasar_TR]

We are able to produce an equivalent to F-119 engine (2D trust vectoring+ Supercruise) with 35.000 ibf (dry thrust) ?

TVC was not specifically mentioned during Dr Aksit’s speech. But he did say that , today at TEI, they can manufacture a 35000lbf thrust engine like the one that powers f22.
Now saying and doing are two different things. On paper he believes TEI can manufacture this engine. In other words technologically he believes they are at that level. But proof of the pudding is in the eating. He needs to put those words in to practice and “actually” produce an engine.
How long will that take? That is anybody’s guess. More importantly will he be able to manufacture that engine in time for TFX to carry? TF 6000 and the subsequent TF10000AB will help us to believe he is on the right track.

Supercruise capability comes with dry thrust and airframe design. F119 engine has a dry thrust of 26000lbf. For TFX to achieve high supercruise like f22, it needs a dry thrust of around 24-26000lbf.

 

[Gary]

Personally, I don't think the engine technology of the XA100 is comparable at all to the AL-41.

Yup, the XA100 is much more advanced. Its's a 3 stream adaptable cycle engine. And its actually passes a series of tests. lol

The Ferry range of the F-22 is 3,200kms with 2 external fuel tanks giving using 12,000kg, Su-57 has a 10,300 kg internal fuel load no external tanks and ferry ranges based on sources 3,500-3,600kms but it can't super cruise like the F-22 so it has high bypass ratio engines than low bypass ratio engines, and they chose that engine design because they have a shit load of territory to cover which is why I am assuming that I think turkey shouldn't have a problem creating an engine like the F-22.

This problem is solved by the 3 stream adaptive cycle engine, in normal mode it uses a high efficiency mode (high bypass) while it could switch to a high thrust mode (low bypass) just in case it needs to be aggressive.

“It’s like a transforming engine — literally,” says Tweedie, general manager for advanced combat engines at GE Edison Works, a business unit dedicated to the research, development and production of advanced technology for the military. “XA100 is an engine that can adapt in flight to mimic a passenger jet engine or a fighter jet engine — all without the pilot pushing a button.”

The Superjet: How GE’s Adaptive Cycle Jet Engine Could Supercharge Military Aviation | GE News

The Superjet: How GE’s Adaptive Cycle Jet Engine Could Supercharge Military Aviation

www.ge.com

I think I will just break down Russian and U.S. engine technology and the funny part is I think it might be beneficial for the TFX thread because excluding the UK and US, Russia might be a possible dark horse for being Turkey's 3rd option and based on current politics I have seen with Turkey I think no one can overlook that possibility.

The problem with Russian engines is their miserable MTBO and general life time. Sure Russia could help, but England is a more mature partner here.

Just to give an idea of the gap for example the AL-31F1 has lesser MTBO and much more maintenance intensive than even lets say old PW F100-220E series engine. Our experience operating both the Su-27/30 and F-16, shows the superiority of the American engines, maybe this is why the Indonesian air force would like to move forward with the acquisition of the F-15EX.

Iirc the AL-31F has a mere MTBO 0f around 300 hours, @Nilgiri could help me correct this if I'm mistaken. And this is a problem in general with Russian engines for future growth, as an increase in thrust would have chew away the operating hours of an engine. This is why the Euro's don't move forward with an uprated EJ200 or why the US Navy stays with the F414, even though there's an uprated F414 EPE.

Answering the question of RT about the prospects for the export of "Products 30", the major general said that with the deployment of serial production, it is reasonable to focus on equipping the second stage of the Russian fleet with engines. In the future, as Popov argues, Russia can export the power unit to China, India, Turkey, Argentina and Brazil.

Su-57 is undergoing a modernization program called project Megapolis which will test new engines and avionics from 2022-2024. And this 2nd stage engines adds more fuel efficiency for a longer range while having the capabilities to super cruise. No idea if Turkey could bribe them the blueprints for the 2nd stage engine.

I don't think the Russians would want to give critical technology to a potential market rival.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Single crystal blades and thermal barrier coatings for starters. Technology that took Pratt and Whitney, and GE how many years to develop? Not talking about TS1400. Plus various other small tidbits, Mr. Mahmut Akşit himself said that they faced embargoes on fuel pumps, oil pumps, gearboxes, etc.. and that this has caused delays. I don't know which parts we can manufacture and cannot, but I'm just realistic enough to know that making an engine of that scale without outside help is not realistic.
What did it take for China to come up with WS-15? For India to come up with the failure that is Kaveri? What is the total budget for our TF-X project? Don't dodge this question now

There are a few countries in the world with Blisk technology and TEI has this technology and applies it to Tf10000AB.

There are a few countries in the world that can make the whole compressor monolithic by using the new generation inertia welding technology and TEI can do this.

There are a few countries that can develop 3rd generation single crystal blades and use it in its own working engine and TEI, Tubitak MAM developed 3rd generation SCB and TEI applied to TS1400. They continue 3+ generation now.

There are 4-5 companies in the world in terms of additive manufacturing know-how in TEI's scale. 45% of the TEI-TS1400 helicopter engine was made with additive manufacturing. We are the first country in the world to use additive manufacturing in rotating blades and they have also optimized it in a special way and TEI is among the few companies that use this technology in the most effective way.

Currently, Tf10000AB is very similar to the F110 engine in tech and TEI is making technological exercises with this engine and getting its personnel ready for the Tf35000. These projects have the necessary infrastructure. Time pressure will challenge Turkiye because TFX doesn't have much time to wait.

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

OK, I'll bite.

Turkey has successfully cast SCB(single crystal blades) in 2015 for the first time. And TÜBİTAK MAM has been developing the technology ever since. Recently, Mahmut Akşit said that they're using 3rd generation SCB for their turbines.

TÜBİTAK MAM has also developed TBC for TS1400 for the first time. @TheInsider has said that the institution is developing double-layer thermal barrier coatings for the TFX engine program. Watch the video below.

The other components you mentioned are trivial. They can be outsourced or subcontracted to a local company to develop and the would certainly not take a decade to

I think the confusion comes from the one to one comparison with the other countries like China or India who had no prior knowledge or experience in the field and took on a major task of developing large turbines and failed at it for decades. TEI is not in the same situation. Go visit the section of capabilities on TEI's website. We are already a significant part of the western turbine engine ecosystem. We're already very good at cold sections of the engine and with T700, TS1400 and TF6000 we gained significant know-how and know-why about hot-sections. We have reached the maturity to develop a big turbine(or will reach with TF6000). I'm not saying it will be a piece of cake but it's within our reach, imo.

SCBs for TS1400 is comparable to that of a modern turbofan engine? How many of those small parts you consider are "trivial", will be when they operate in an engine with thrust upwards of 35000lbft? Do you know what tolerances the smallest bearings and rivets will need at those temps and pressures? I don't buy the "We can do this" or "We're at this level" words, influenced by politics. Doing this all by ourselves? I can already tell the development, tests, prototypes, block-0, revisions, delays, this, that so on and so forth and you're looking at no less than 20 years until it's up in the sky, ready to reliably engage the enemy. So, to my original point, we're not admitting anyone into the program without asking RR first.
I still firmly believe that without the RR expertise, we will not have a fighter jet flying anytime anywhere soon and I'm yet to see any evidence to the contrary. If I see the TF-10000AB reliably flying the Kızılelma supersonic next year sharp, then maybe.
We did a good job the AESA radar though, and if we can manage to further develop the Gökdoğan for countering the Meteor, the only question mark remaining will be the engine.

 

[MarcusZidanta]

It's not about making the engine, anyone can make an engine.
Look some random guy on YouTube managed to make a DIY jet engine:

It's about making an engine that can withstand very high temperatures alongside long service life components. The engine has to work for thousands of hours, in unfavourable conditions, just like a clock, tick tock.

I find it incredibly delusional that people here think TAI can develop a 5th gen engine akin to F119 or F135.

F119 cost $3 billion dollars to develop ($1.36 billion in 1991 dollars), F135 (engine of the F35) cost $7.5 billion, Pratt and Whitney have the human capital and infrastructure to develop these engines at these prices.
Turkey neither has the brain capital, experience, or infrastructure to build an engine like this, even if it does, it would take at LEAST 15-20 years, and could cost $10B-$30B if we include necessary infrastructure that needs to be built - even then it would be below average.

At this point Rolls Royce is a must, RR knows they have leverage, because Turkey has no other engine choices for TF-X. They will NOT give IP rights under any circumstance, the government must understand, but they won't, until it gets very desperate. They should make a deal where RR builds infrastructure in Turkey to manufacture these engines, and provides necessary know-how to Turkish engineers at TAI. This deal could cost Turkey up to $10 billion, but it has to be done. Then we can talk indigenous engines.

 

[Mustafa27]

It's not about making the engine, anyone can make an engine.
Look some random guy on YouTube managed to make a DIY jet engine:

It's about making an engine that can withstand very high temperatures alongside long service life components. The engine has to work for thousands of hours, in unfavourable conditions, just like a clock, tick tock.

I find it incredibly delusional that people here think TAI can develop a 5th gen engine akin to F119 or F135.

F119 cost $3 billion dollars to develop ($1.36 billion in 1991 dollars), F135 (engine of the F35) cost $7.5 billion, Pratt and Whitney have the human capital and infrastructure to develop these engines at these prices.
Turkey neither has the brain capital, experience, or infrastructure to build an engine like this, even if it does, it would take at LEAST 15-20 years, and could cost $10B-$30B if we include necessary infrastructure that needs to be built - even then it would be below average.

At this point Rolls Royce is a must, RR knows they have leverage, because Turkey has no other engine choices for TF-X. They will NOT give IP rights under any circumstance, the government must understand, but they won't, until it gets very desperate. They should make a deal where RR builds infrastructure in Turkey to manufacture these engines, and provides necessary know-how to Turkish engineers at TAI. This deal could cost Turkey up to $10 billion, but it has to be done. Then we can talk indigenous engines.

This is a bait but I am biting it.

Tell me what infrastructure TEI is missing?

 

[Pilatino]

It's not about making the engine, anyone can make an engine.
Look some random guy on YouTube managed to make a DIY jet engine:

It's about making an engine that can withstand very high temperatures alongside long service life components. The engine has to work for thousands of hours, in unfavourable conditions, just like a clock, tick tock.

I find it incredibly delusional that people here think TAI can develop a 5th gen engine akin to F119 or F135.

F119 cost $3 billion dollars to develop ($1.36 billion in 1991 dollars), F135 (engine of the F35) cost $7.5 billion, Pratt and Whitney have the human capital and infrastructure to develop these engines at these prices.
Turkey neither has the brain capital, experience, or infrastructure to build an engine like this, even if it does, it would take at LEAST 15-20 years, and could cost $10B-$30B if we include necessary infrastructure that needs to be built - even then it would be below average.

At this point Rolls Royce is a must, RR knows they have leverage, because Turkey has no other engine choices for TF-X. They will NOT give IP rights under any circumstance, the government must understand, but they won't, until it gets very desperate. They should make a deal where RR builds infrastructure in Turkey to manufacture these engines, and provides necessary know-how to Turkish engineers at TAI. This deal could cost Turkey up to $10 billion, but it has to be done. Then we can talk indigenous engines.

If Turkey can't make the TFX engine by 2030, I promise you, I will post a video for you while braying loudly like a donkey for a minute.

Most of us was laughing at Temel Kotil when he was telling us we can do it / we are doing it etc.

And now he passed his exam and gave the paper to Mahmut Akşit's TEI. This time Mr. Akşit saying that "We can do it, we have the capabilities!" and I believe all of them. His eyes are shining with excitement while talking about it and he says all we need is time.

P.S. we're gonna do it much more cheaper and faster than the others, you'll see it.

 

[MarcusZidanta]

This is a bait but I am biting it.

Tell me what infrastructure TEI is missing?

If Turkey can't make the TFX engine by 2030, I promise you, I will post a video of you bragging for a minute.

China spends $300 billion on its military yearly, it has a massive industrial base, has a massive network of industrial espionage, and has thousands of engineers working on jet engines. Yet the engines they produce are subpar - black smoke comes out of the J-20 engines, literally. This project will end up like the Arjun Tank if you let narcissistic nationalism blind you.

 

[Pilatino]

China spends $300 billion on its military yearly, it has a massive industrial base, has a massive network of industrial espionage, and has thousands of engineers working on jet engines. Yet the engines they produce are subpar - black smoke comes out of the J-20 engines, literally. This project will end up like the Arjun Tank if you let narcissistic nationalism blind you.

Bruh, the question is, will you send me the same video? I'll be here.

"Her yiğidin yoğurt yiyişi farklıdır"

There are two main ways to build a tf engine
1st western technique: more reliable, smokeless, more durable results.
2nd eastern technique:... China uses this one by reverse engineering Russian/Soviet junks.

We are going with the first technique

 

[Boz]

China spends $300 billion on its military yearly, it has a massive industrial base, has a massive network of industrial espionage, and has thousands of engineers working on jet engines. Yet the engines they produce are subpar - black smoke comes out of the J-20 engines, literally. This project will end up like the Arjun Tank if you let narcissistic nationalism blind you.

Why is this going in circles again? Didn't @Nilgiri address the China comparisons in the previous page.

Also 'Arjun Tank'? are you Indian?

 

[Mustafa27]

China spends $300 billion on its military yearly, it has a massive industrial base, has a massive network of industrial espionage, and has thousands of engineers working on jet engines. Yet the engines they produce are subpar - black smoke comes out of the J-20 engines, literally. This project will end up like the Arjun Tank if you let narcissistic nationalism blind you.

I asked you a simple question, what infrastructure TEI is missing. You made a statement now you need to bring in the facts to back up your statements.

 

[MarcusZidanta]

Why is this going in circles again? Didn't @Nilgiri address the China comparisons in the previous page.

Also 'Arjun Tank'? are you Indian?

No, I'm not Indian haha. Arjun Tank is a world renown mess. Indians tried to produce all the component themselves, it has outdated fire control systems and ammunition, large weak spot in armour, crap engine, poor gun accuracy, too heavy, the list goes on.

 

[Pilatino]

China spends $300 billion on its military yearly, it has a massive industrial base, has a massive network of industrial espionage, and has thousands of engineers working on jet engines. Yet the engines they produce are subpar - black smoke comes out of the J-20 engines, literally. This project will end up like the Arjun Tank if you let narcissistic nationalism blind you.

Yes I'm a patriot and nationalist but not blindly. Frankly saying, we would discuss if there's a flaw about something for hours. But bruh we have all we need each and every needed tech is here on our hands waiting for an effort to put them together to build our own frickin tf engine. Calm down swallow it slowly and wait for the date

P.S. again... You can say that then why the hell you're begging for RR's help now? We have it all yes but except one thing "experience" and RR got it. That's all but we're trying to do step by step with TF6000/TF10000AB and then TF35000