TR Propulsion Systems

[Kartal1]

The Hybrid solution is very impressive, and when I look at the numbers it should be a no brainer. There are however somethings that only the wise know from experience, so I assume that may be why we haven't swapped to Hybrid solution.

But I don't see why they can't have several prototypes and test them thoroughly while still acquiring some standard conventional ones.

I know that diversifying is more expensive for us, but it is necessary to be able to change mindset as well.

I think this could be an example of one of those old doctrins that needs to be challenged and changed or at least battlefield tested @Kartal1

I am also on the opinion that it will be good to explore the option. It's just that I am not so confident in MKE making it work as intended.

 

[Nilgiri]

F404 and F414 are the epitome of how military turbine engines can be made to be reliable.

The F404 has a version called F412 with a very large inlet fan. This is a non afterburning engine specifically made for A-12 Avenger 2 plane. This engine developed very high thrust due to the large fan it utilised. In F414, they used a similar but comparatively smaller fan than the one used in F412 but larger than the one in F404. This fan provided a lot of air to flow through the compression and combustion section. To accommodate this extra air flow and sustain efficient burn, accordingly, they had to enlarge the diameter of the f412’s and F414’s combustion chambers. This way they were able to achieve 13000lbf dry thrust from the f414 which had essentially the same dimensions as f404, apart from the larger fan and bigger combustor. This was called a “trapped vortex combustor”.

A-12 Avenger 2
View attachment 69491
Whence the A-12 project was cancelled so was F412 engine. But it paved the way for f414.

With the EDE (Enhanced DurabilityEngine) version, F414 has gone through an upgrade of materials and aerodynamic design in it’s HP Turbine stage, allowing it to go hotter without problems and by reducing HP compressor stage by one from 7 to 6 it was made possible to lower SFC and improve durability by 3 times.

The EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) version of F414 has been furnished with a totally new Fan, Core and Turbine section that gave a 20% increase to thrust level, achieving 26400lbf with AB.

GE has also been conducting experiments on F414, successfully, by replacing LP turbines with CMC materials.

I only hope that at TEI, our engineers, being part of GE family, are making note of these innovations and will in time, apply them to our own engines too.

Love your posts

A-12 takes me back to old times with other buddies, we used to chat about it all the time.

Really genesis of GE arc here, is with the large Human resource acquiring and organisation done w.r.t the F110 program in the 1970s. How this intersects with the Pentagon analysis being done at the time regd program allocations/ecosystems regd the F-111 vs F-14 (there was an earlier synthesis of much larger carriers able to handle a near F-111 sized a/c before it diverged into F-14 to make use of conventional sized and existing allocated carriers etc).....that pratt could not be given in monolithic way (i.e whole point to bring GE huge capital to bear, though it was more civvy oriented to that point). But one will always notice the F-111 and F-14 are tied at hip in lot of things as result (this was argument given for TF-30 for F-14 originally).

But the GE arc investment was notably seen in 1980s with both the F-15/16 powerplant arcs and also TF30 being replaced by GE F110 as well.

This paid off in all kind of ways (versus pratt and also what you mention here with ease of transitioning 404 to 412 and 414) downstream to make GE a potent force in military turbojet/fan powerplants. Things go relatively tic tac toe given the earlier project expertise developed by the various teams.

 

[neosinan]

Hisar OPVs are using Türasaş V8 16 engines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1819769428654838076

 

[Bogeyman]

Hisar OPVs are using Türsaş V8 16 engines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1819769428654838076

"Originally developed by TÜRASAŞ, the 8V 160, 8-cylinder machine can produce 1200 horsepower. Specific fuel consumption is 2.20 liters per gram/kilowatt hour."

 

[Anmdt]

Hisar OPVs are using Türasaş V8 16 engines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1819769428654838076

I can not make sure of this, some informations cover electric motors as being indigeneous but i haven't heard of Turasas supplying medium speed diesels for the project. Gensets for on-board electricity have been supplied by Isbir elektrik as per usual. Since MAN provided end to end solution for the whole propulsion system, i am also considering that the genset's driving the electric motors are also supplied by MAN.

The engines of Turasas have certification for commercial applications but also haven't heard of Turk Loydu certifying these engines for naval applications.

Hisar Class' installed power is also given wrong, you can not sum the power of two system connected by 'Or', that is what CODELOD do, it is either all diesels, or diesel electric.

 

[Strong AI]

Kale Arge General Manager Cüneyt Kenger stated, "While last year we had the capacity to produce 2 engines per week, now we can produce 7 engines per week."

Having taken significant steps towards becoming a "Center of Excellence for Gas Turbine Systems" and achieving 100% growth in the past year, Kale Arge is currently engaged in the mass production and delivery of KTJ-3200 turbojet engines, which were uniquely developed using entirely domestic resources, for the SOM Air-Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM, TÜBİTAK SAGE) and the ATMACA Anti-Ship Cruise Missile (ASCM, ROKETSAN).

The company has also developed the KTJ3700 TJ Engine with a thrust capacity of 3,700N for the KARA ATMACA Land-Based Cruise Missile (SLCM) developed for the Land Forces Command, and delivered the first engine for the initial test firing at the end of January. Another engine developed by Kale Arge, the KTJ-1750 Turbojet Engine with a thrust capacity of 1,750N, successfully performed in the first live test firing of the ÇAKIR Cruise Missile, launched from the AKINCI UAV in May 2023.

During the Farnborough International Airshow, we had a comprehensive interview with Kale Arge General Manager Cüneyt Kenger regarding the current status of the Kale Arge Tuzla Development and Test Center renovation and Altitude Test Setup capacity increase projects, which began last year, the major milestones planned for ongoing engine projects in 2024, as well as the company's targets and expectations for the export market and future engine roadmaps. You can read this exclusive interview in our upcoming issue.

Some brief notes from our interview with Kale Arge General Manager Cüneyt Kenger:

• "We are about to introduce our third engine, the KTJ-3700, into the inventory, which will be used in the KARA ATMACA Missile."
• "We have an ARAT engine project. It is progressing very successfully. It's a 40-month project. We do not expect any delays. We aim to complete it on the normal schedule."
• "There will be a test firing with the SOM (KTJ-3200 TJ Engine) very soon."
• "The new altitude tests with the ÇAKIR Missile (KTJ-1750 TJ Engine) will be completed around October/November."
• "The company has grown very quickly. In the last year, Kale Arge has grown by 100%. A year ago, we had 120 employees, and now we have 240. We've doubled in size. Out of these, 120 are R&D/Engineering personnel."
• "Last year, we had the capacity to produce 2 engines per week, but now we can produce 7 engines per week. This has tripled..."
• "Next year, you will likely hear about an export contract. There are official requests for price quotes right now. It's not just discussions anymore, it's beyond that."
• "We see a significant need for smaller engines, especially for drones. The difference with these engines compared to ours is that they require longer operational time and longer life."
• "We want to develop a turbofan engine. After making a turbofan, we might move on to small turbofan engines for business jets. This way, we will also make a transition to the civilian sector..."
• "Seeing 10 years ahead is not very difficult; it's not a long time, but we slowly want to transition to dual-use engines. Because as a company, it's not right to put all the eggs in one basket... There could be collaborations on turbofan engines for small civilian aircraft. When we talk about the civilian sector, its qualification and certification requirements are very different. Therefore, perhaps not alone, but through partnerships, we can start engine projects, turbofan projects, for use in the civilian sector."

Kale Arge Genel Müdürü Cüneyt KENGER, “Geçtiğimiz Sene Haftada 2 Motor Kapasitemiz Varken Şimdi Haftada 7 Motor Yapabiliyoruz.”

“Gaz Türbinli Sistemler için Mükemmeliyet Merkezi” olma yolunda önemli adımlar atan ve son bir yılda %100 büyüme kaydeden Kale Arge, halen SOM Havadan Atılan Seyir Füzesi (ALCM, TÜBİTAK SAGE) ve ATMACA Gemisavar Seyir Füzesi (ASCM, ROKETSAN) için tamamen yerli imkanlarla özgün olarak...

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[what]

It took a while but Kale has made some fantastic progress, and they closed many of our gaps.
And I like their vision, i.e. trying to move into the civilian space.

You cant put a value on all those engineers that now gain experience and will build the next bigger, better product.

 

[zio]

We need a turbojet engine with more than 4000 newton for a missiles that carry 450kg warhead beyond 300 km range.,I hope arat project will do it.SOM missiles with ktj 3700 engine will give more range if the platform can cary it at 10k altitute.

 

[Strong AI]

Mr. Aksit is obviously talking here about the domestic engine of KAAN, not about TF10000.

"We are trying to work as fast as we can. We are trying to complete it as quickly as possible. This is a fifth-generation fighter jet engine in terms of technology and size. Such engines typically take 10-15 years to develop worldwide. For example, the Eurofighter's engine is much smaller than the one we are working on and is not as advanced in terms of technology. It took 17 years to develop. However, I'm not saying that it will take us 17 years. Our government wants us to complete it in a much shorter time. People should not think that nothing has been done just because we started this a year or two ago. We are working quickly without rushing it. Our team has gained experience from previous engines."

And regarding TF6000 (he does certainly not mean export of TF6000):

"We successfully ran our TF6000 engine at the end of February. Since then, we have conducted 54 successful tests. Last year, we made our first export thanks to the connections we established at the previous IDEF (International Defense Industry Fair). If everything goes well, we aim to sign new export agreements at the next IDEF. The engine is not a finished product; it’s a sub-component installed in aircraft. Exporting this is a bit more challenging than exporting an entire aircraft. We can only sell it to UAV and helicopter manufacturers. However, TEI and Baykar can sell their finished products to any country. We have an advantage: when Baykar exports the TB-3, our engine is exported along with it. As long as the country using this aircraft continues to fly it, they will need to purchase our products for maintenance, repairs, and engine replacements when the engine's lifespan ends."

TEI Genel Müdürü Akşit: "TF10000 motor çalışmaları süratle devam ediyor"

TEI Genel Müdürü Mahmut Akşit İDEF2025 toplantısında Haber7 muhabiri Yavuz Selvi'ye özel açıklamalarda bulundu. Akşit, "TF6000 motorunda 54 başarılı

video.haber7.com

 

[Tonyukuk]

Mr. Aksit is obviously talking here about the domestic engine of KAAN, not about TF10000.

"We are trying to work as fast as we can. We are trying to complete it as quickly as possible. This is a fifth-generation fighter jet engine in terms of technology and size. Such engines typically take 10-15 years to develop worldwide. For example, the Eurofighter's engine is much smaller than the one we are working on and is not as advanced in terms of technology. It took 17 years to develop. However, I'm not saying that it will take us 17 years. Our government wants us to complete it in a much shorter time. People should not think that nothing has been done just because we started this a year or two ago. We are working quickly without rushing it. Our team has gained experience from previous engines."

And regarding TF6000 (he does certainly not mean export of TF6000):

"We successfully ran our TF6000 engine at the end of February. Since then, we have conducted 54 successful tests. Last year, we made our first export thanks to the connections we established at the previous IDEF (International Defense Industry Fair). If everything goes well, we aim to sign new export agreements at the next IDEF. The engine is not a finished product; it’s a sub-component installed in aircraft. Exporting this is a bit more challenging than exporting an entire aircraft. We can only sell it to UAV and helicopter manufacturers. However, TEI and Baykar can sell their finished products to any country. We have an advantage: when Baykar exports the TB-3, our engine is exported along with it. As long as the country using this aircraft continues to fly it, they will need to purchase our products for maintenance, repairs, and engine replacements when the engine's lifespan ends."

TEI Genel Müdürü Akşit: "TF10000 motor çalışmaları süratle devam ediyor"

TEI Genel Müdürü Mahmut Akşit İDEF2025 toplantısında Haber7 muhabiri Yavuz Selvi'ye özel açıklamalarda bulundu. Akşit, "TF6000 motorunda 54 başarılı

video.haber7.com

We should proceed with fully speed. Tengri has been patiently waiting for its horde to rise to total dominance for centuries. Only a few years left until the world realizes that the central horde has reawakened. Nothing will be the same after that.

TF-35000 and TF-6000/10000 are the most important projects. If they are successfully completed, no one can stop us. A Turkic world armed with 5th generation fighters and jet drones would completely change the face of the earth.

 

[Spitfire9]

It took a while but Kale has made some fantastic progress, and they closed many of our gaps.
And I like their vision, i.e. trying to move into the civilian space.

You cant put a value on all those engineers that now gain experience and will build the next bigger, better product.

It would be interesting to see how close Kale could get to existing GE, GE/SAFRAN, P&W and RR civil aviation engines in the next 10-20 years.

 

[TheInsider]

Mr. Aksit is obviously talking here about the domestic engine of KAAN, not about TF10000.

"We are trying to work as fast as we can. We are trying to complete it as quickly as possible. This is a fifth-generation fighter jet engine in terms of technology and size. Such engines typically take 10-15 years to develop worldwide. For example, the Eurofighter's engine is much smaller than the one we are working on and is not as advanced in terms of technology. It took 17 years to develop. However, I'm not saying that it will take us 17 years. Our government wants us to complete it in a much shorter time. People should not think that nothing has been done just because we started this a year or two ago. We are working quickly without rushing it. Our team has gained experience from previous engines."

And regarding TF6000 (he does certainly not mean export of TF6000):

"We successfully ran our TF6000 engine at the end of February. Since then, we have conducted 54 successful tests. Last year, we made our first export thanks to the connections we established at the previous IDEF (International Defense Industry Fair). If everything goes well, we aim to sign new export agreements at the next IDEF. The engine is not a finished product; it’s a sub-component installed in aircraft. Exporting this is a bit more challenging than exporting an entire aircraft. We can only sell it to UAV and helicopter manufacturers. However, TEI and Baykar can sell their finished products to any country. We have an advantage: when Baykar exports the TB-3, our engine is exported along with it. As long as the country using this aircraft continues to fly it, they will need to purchase our products for maintenance, repairs, and engine replacements when the engine's lifespan ends."

TEI Genel Müdürü Akşit: "TF10000 motor çalışmaları süratle devam ediyor"

TEI Genel Müdürü Mahmut Akşit İDEF2025 toplantısında Haber7 muhabiri Yavuz Selvi'ye özel açıklamalarda bulundu. Akşit, "TF6000 motorunda 54 başarılı

video.haber7.com

54 tests in 6 months. 9 tests per month and 1 test per ~3 days for TF-6k/10k. This is a good pace. We will see the mockup of TF-35000 in 2025 at IDEF. The mockup will be similar to the TF-6000 mockup we saw in the past.

 

[Samba]

54 tests in 6 months. 9 tests per month and 1 test per ~3 days for TF-6k/10k. This is a good pace. We will see the mockup of TF-35000 in 2025 at IDEF. The mockup will be similar to the TF-6000 mockup we saw in the past.

Is there any video or footage out there regarding any of those test runs? I only saw the first one released to the public.

 

[TheInsider]

Is there any video or footage out there regarding any of those test runs? I only saw the first one released to the public.

There probably is but TEI probably needs permission to release any footage.

 

[Kartal1]

Guys, stay to topic!

Off topic posts were moved to the relevant thread.

 

[somegoodusername]

Kale Arge General Manager Cüneyt Kenger stated, "While last year we had the capacity to produce 2 engines per week, now we can produce 7 engines per week."

Our defense industry is so transparent that our adversaries don’t need to run intelligence-gathering operations, buy information from Turkish sources, or infiltrate facilities with agents to obtain critical or strategic production numbers and other sensitive data.

And every bit of that new information is posted in this forum on the same day in clear English. All they have to do is read this forum, outline the picture, and fill in the gaps with some basic statistical calculations.

 

[No Name]

Our defense industry is so transparent that our adversaries don’t need to run intelligence-gathering operations, buy information from Turkish sources, or infiltrate facilities with agents to obtain critical or strategic production numbers and other sensitive data.

And every bit of that new information is posted in this forum on the same day in clear English. All they have to do is read this forum, outline the picture, and fill in the gaps with some basic statistical calculations.

Sadly, this level of transparency is needed by Turkey so that it stops Turkey from turning into another Russia or Iran.

 

[TheInsider]

Our defense industry is so transparent that our adversaries don’t need to run intelligence-gathering operations, buy information from Turkish sources, or infiltrate facilities with agents to obtain critical or strategic production numbers and other sensitive data.

And every bit of that new information is posted in this forum on the same day in clear English. All they have to do is read this forum, outline the picture, and fill in the gaps with some basic statistical calculations.

It is not a classified information.

 

[somegoodusername]

It is not a classified information.

I am not saying this is a classified information.

"outline the picture, and fill in the gaps with some basic statistical calculations"

Kale is the only cruise missile engine supplier to Turkey. Take the production values declared and distribute it based on your other assumptions for engine models would be ordered, you can get a rough estimate of Turkey's cruise missile inventories by types and I think that has to be classified information. It won't be 100% accurate, but it will be more accurate than if that production numbers wouldn't announced openly.

You can narrow the gaps between the higher and lower ends of your future forecasts about Turkish defense statistics with this much declared information. Get an more accurate picture.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Our defense industry is so transparent that our adversaries don’t need to run intelligence-gathering operations, buy information from Turkish sources, or infiltrate facilities with agents to obtain critical or strategic production numbers and other sensitive data.

And every bit of that new information is posted in this forum on the same day in clear English. All they have to do is read this forum, outline the picture, and fill in the gaps with some basic statistical calculations.

Why? I find it extremely impertinent to have to report everything so that we are not accused of mobilizing for war.
On what basis should or should we not be allowed to produce or develop technology?
The justifications are hypocritical, the countries that deny us this in turn develop weapons systems themselves and kill civilians themselves.
I don't give a fart about their moral ideas because they are not meant seriously anyway, and only apply them if it benefits them.