TR Propulsion Systems

Oublious · Jul 14, 2024

Merzifonlu · Jul 14, 2024

Yasar_TR said:
If we remind ourselves about his statement that the relation between engine diameter and thrust level being directly related, it is hard to think that this engine is going to develop only 6000lbf thrust.
The tf10k engine diameter is almost same as the GE-F404 engine diameter that can develop 11000lbf dry thrust.
We know that the GE-F404 engine‘s diameter is 89cm and it’s fan inlet diameter is 79cm. But we don’t know the fan inlet diameter of our TF6K. But looking at the over all engine diameters of the two, it is logical to presume they too are similar. The only differences between the two are in their lengths, whereby the f404 is 391cm in length, when our tf10k is 315cm. Yet F404GE-100D which is the non AB version, has a length of 226cm which is almost identical to tf6k’s.

I mentioned these facts before.

Remember?

Yasar_TR · Jul 14, 2024

Merzifonlu said:
I mentioned these facts before. Remember?

I remembered some of these facts having been mentioned in a forum by you. I did a quick search here but could not find it. Can you let me know which post it was?
If memory serves, you were mentioning about possibility of Tf6k giving more thrust than it was stated on paper.

Without comparing the f404’s and the tf6k’s inlet fan diameters, it is difficult to discuss much about the maximum potential thrust availability of our engine. But logically tf6k engine should be developing more thrust than what TEI says it will. Either they are being over cautious or their design is such that it has a lot of room for growth.

TheInsider · Jul 14, 2024

What is the fan diameter of TF-6000? I'm not talking about 3 dimensions which include auxiliary systems like oil tanks, gears, etc.

As far as i know TF-6000 has a fan diameter of 624mm. For comparison, F-404 has a fan diameter of 890mm.

Yasar_TR · Jul 15, 2024

TheInsider said:
What is the fan diameter of TF-6000? I'm not talking about 3 dimensions which include auxiliary systems like oil tanks, gears, etc.

As far as i know TF-6000 has a fan diameter of 624mm. For comparison, F-404 has a fan diameter of 890mm.

Can you give a source for that please ?
If that is the case then it makes all the difference.
Accodng to TEI’s site the width is 86cm and the height (which includes all the other paraphernalia) is 110cm. So one would think the diameter is close to 86cm.

But if it is 62.4cm as you say , then the difference in thrust is self explanatory.
Besides, f404 has a three stage LP fan section that does deliver a great deal of air in to the HP compressor section against our TF6K’s 2 stage LP fan section.

Quasar · Jul 15, 2024

Yasar_TR said:
Can you give a source for that please ?
If that is the case then it makes all the difference.
Accodng to TEI’s site the width is 86cm and the height (which includes all the other paraphernalia) is 110cm. So one would think the diameter is close to 86cm.

View attachment 69476
But if it is 62.4cm as you say , then the difference in thrust is self explanatory.
Besides, f404 has a three stage LP fan section that does deliver a great deal of air in to the HP compressor section against our TF6K’s 2 stage LP fan section.

again eventhough it is not clear another possible reference point is stated 15 cm and F110-GE-129

''SAHA EXPO Daily, President & CEO of TEI Prof. Mahmut AKŞİT also pointed out that if the radii of the relevant parts in the engine are expanded by 15 cm, the TEI-TF6000 can be converted into a turbofan engine similar to the F110-GE-129''

radii of the ''relevant parts''???

for instance if we take the Blower outer diameter For F110-GE-129 it is 970 mm

For TF 6000 can be somewhere around 670 mm

Quasar · Jul 15, 2024

Yasar_TR said:
We know that the GE-F404 engine‘s diameter is 89cm and it’s fan inlet diameter is 79cm. But we don’t know the fan inlet diameter of our TF6K. But looking at the over all engine diameters of the two, it is logical to presume they too are similar.

Quasar said:
again eventhough it is not clear another possible reference point is stated 15 cm and F110-GE-129

''SAHA EXPO Daily, President & CEO of TEI Prof. Mahmut AKŞİT also pointed out that if the radii of the relevant parts in the engine are expanded by 15 cm, the TEI-TF6000 can be converted into a turbofan engine similar to the F110-GE-129''

radii of the ''relevant parts''???

for instance if we take the Blower outer diameter For F110-GE-129 it is 970 mm
View attachment 69477
For TF 6000 can be somewhere around 670 mm

F 404 max diameter is 89 cm inlet diameter is 71 cm

if max diameter for TF 6000-10000 is 86 - 87 cm inlet diameter can be around 68 - 69 cm seems like a logical conlusion???

-potentially available structure for 17.000 Ib & + that may still needs major adjustments which we need to master with KAAN engine eventually anyway ?

-current more efficent form for ANKA 3 - KIZILELMA?

uçuyorum · Jul 15, 2024

TF6000 is fatter, it has significantly higher bypass ratio than F404. So F404 has probably a much larger core and it I think uses twice as much fuel as TF6000

TheInsider · Jul 15, 2024

Yasar_TR said:
Can you give a source for that please ?
If that is the case then it makes all the difference.
Accodng to TEI’s site the width is 86cm and the height (which includes all the other paraphernalia) is 110cm. So one would think the diameter is close to 86cm.

View attachment 69476
But if it is 62.4cm as you say , then the difference in thrust is self explanatory.
Besides, f404 has a three stage LP fan section that does deliver a great deal of air in to the HP compressor section against our TF6K’s 2 stage LP fan section.

I have no concrete written source. This is what people told me when i spoke to people in the past. The number might not be exactly 624mm (it is what i remember) but i doubt it is anything higher than say 670-680mm because when i saw the engine mockup up close it was smaller than F-404(I have seen both engines up close). If we compare TF-6000 and F-404s fan section indeed TF-6000 is a 2 stage fan but it has better production technology so i won't be surprised if it performs as good as a 3 stage fan or even outperforms it.

Yasar_TR · Jul 15, 2024

TheInsider said:
I have no concrete written source. This is what people told me when i spoke to people in the past. The number might not be exactly 624mm (it is what i remember) but i doubt it is anything higher than say 670-680mm because when i saw the engine mockup up close it was smaller than F-404(I have seen both engines up close). If we compare TF-6000 and F-404s fan section indeed TF-6000 is a 2 stage fan but it has better production technology so i won't be surprised if it performs as good as a 3 stage fan or even outperforms it.

Well ,
taking below picture as basis

This picture on my screen measures with my engineers’ compass, 104mm long with 28.7mm fan width.
if the length of the engine is as stated in TEI site, 2250mm , then pro-rata the fan diameter is 620mm. That overlaps well with your 624mm measurement.

Re: your comment on our 2 stage LP compressor performing better,
it has to be noted that the newer f404 engines now use blisk compressor stages with CMC materials in hot sections in their EDE and EPE (Enhanced Durability and Enhanced Performance Engines) versions with most probably 4th generation single Crystal blades and friction welded LP turbines as per the newer f110s.

EDIT

I carried out a similar exercise with a F404 picture and came out to the conclusion that the fan diameter was 70cm.
The 89cm diameter figure is the overall diameter of the engine with all the paraphernalia attached to it. Infact in specifications that I found later, the inlet fan size of f404 is given as having 71cm diameter.

Quasar · Jul 16, 2024

624mm diameter fan is for AI-322F

I highly doupt that any mock up is ideal

Facts

1- F 404 max diameter is 89 cm inlet diameter is 71 cm

2- TF 6000 - 10000 860 mm - 870 mm respectivly, inlet diameter is ....

3- the diffrence between F 404 and F 110 is 31 cm

4- Mahmut AKŞİT ''the radii of the relevant parts in the engine are expanded by 15 cm our engine can be converted into a turbofan engine similar to the F110-GE-129'' ... simply means 30 cm expansion in diameter

Conclusion

F 404 and TF 6000 - 10000 are totally diffrent products with diffrent requirments and philosophies

F 404 is the the definition of reliability and affordable ... designed to almost always provide enough air flow to engine to prevent engine stall even in high angle of attack and quick response time of the engine that was why it was the choice of the US navy and it was and still is an almost perfect choice for trainers and light aircrafts

TF 6000 -10000 we plan to use them in our unmaned platforms for instance we want KIZILELMA to fly for 5 hours for ANKA 3 it is even more

Yet dimensional resemblence is undeniable

Yasar_TR · Jul 16, 2024

Quasar said:
624mm diameter fan is for AI-322F

I highly doupt that any mock up is ideal

Facts

1- F 404 max diameter is 89 cm inlet diameter is 71 cm

2- TF 6000 - 10000 860 mm - 870 mm respectivly, inlet diameter is ....

3- the diffrence between F 404 and F 110 is 31 cm

4- Mahmut AKŞİT ''the radii of the relevant parts in the engine are expanded by 15 cm our engine can be converted into a turbofan engine similar to the F110-GE-129'' ... simply means 30 cm expansion in diameter

Conclusion

F 404 and TF 6000 - 10000 are totally diffrent products with diffrent requirments and philosophies

F 404 is the the definition of reliability and affordable ... designed to almost always provide enough air flow to engine to prevent engine stall even in high angle of attack and quick response time of the engine that was why it was the choice of the US navy and it was and still is an almost perfect choice for trainers and light aircrafts

TF 6000 -10000 we plan to use then in our unmaned platforms for instance we want KIZILELMA to fly for 5 hours for ANKA 3 it is even more

Yet dimensional resemblence is undeniable

F404 and F414 are the epitome of how military turbine engines can be made to be reliable.

The F404 has a version called F412 with a very large inlet fan. This is a non afterburning engine specifically made for A-12 Avenger 2 plane. This engine developed very high thrust due to the large fan it utilised. In F414, they used a similar but comparatively smaller fan than the one used in F412 but larger than the one in F404. This fan provided a lot of air to flow through the compression and combustion section. To accommodate this extra air flow and sustain efficient burn, accordingly, they had to enlarge the diameter of the f412’s and F414’s combustion chambers. This way they were able to achieve 13000lbf dry thrust from the f414 which had essentially the same dimensions as f404, apart from the larger fan and bigger combustor. This was called a “trapped vortex combustor”.

A-12 Avenger 2

Whence the A-12 project was cancelled so was F412 engine. But it paved the way for f414.

With the EDE (Enhanced DurabilityEngine) version, F414 has gone through an upgrade of materials and aerodynamic design in it’s HP Turbine stage, allowing it to go hotter without problems and by reducing HP compressor stage by one from 7 to 6 it was made possible to lower SFC and improve durability by 3 times.

The EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) version of F414 has been furnished with a totally new Fan, Core and Turbine section that gave a 20% increase to thrust level, achieving 26400lbf with AB.

GE has also been conducting experiments on F414, successfully, by replacing LP turbines with CMC materials.

I only hope that at TEI, our engineers, being part of GE family, are making note of these innovations and will in time, apply them to our own engines too.

2033 · Jul 17, 2024

Are we giving up power because we want our engine to stay in the air longer?????

uçuyorum · Jul 17, 2024

2033 said:
Are we giving up power because we want our engine to stay in the air longer?????

I think bypass ratio is a consideration for endurance, that doesn't necessarily mean giving up power.

Yasar_TR · Jul 17, 2024

2033 said:
Are we giving up power because we want our engine to stay in the air longer?????

Without being pedantic, first of all, with turbofan engines on a plane, there is no power but thrust.
No we are not giving up on thrust. By increasing bypass ratio slightly, we are making an engine that should in theory operate more efficiently at denser air that gives better thrust levels. So up to 40000ft our engine should perform with better fuel efficiency.
A lower bypass ratio engine will have better dogfighting and quicker thrust delivery under extreme conditions and at high angle of attack. But TF-6000 is still a low bypass engine. So it is suitable for fighters. For continuous high thrust the slightly higher bypass ratio will help achieve better efficiency and fuel economy.
This engine will also be cooler on the outside as more cool air is bypassed around the engine core, helping the plane to be stealthier with less heat signature.
This is an ideal engine for UCAVs like KE and Anka-3.

Saithan · Jul 17, 2024

Any new info on powerpack for the Firtinas ?

It's been a while since we heard anything about it.

Saithan · Jul 17, 2024

Strong AI said:
afaik only this

Thanks.

It's amazing how very little there is about landforces and the progress on their projects. This silence doesn't bode well. Even if it is to fly under the radar (which I doubt they're able to keep progress a secret with so many spies around).

There should be some news for the general public.

Being so silent about is very detrimental.

Yasar_TR · Jul 17, 2024

Saithan said:
Thanks.

It's amazing how very little there is about landforces and the progress on their projects. This silence doesn't bode well. Even if it is to fly under the radar (which I doubt they're able to keep progress a secret with so many spies around).

There should be some news for the general public.

Being so silent about is very detrimental.

There may be some decision making process involved here. In conventional practice UTKU is the engine of choice going forward. But due to behind the frontline operational nature of these howitzers, the hybrid engine is also a good solution. MKE made a point of it with their prototype.

GÜRHAN (155 mm Kundağı Motorlu Hibrit Obüs)

www.mke.gov.tr

Turkish MKE to produce electric version of "Fırtına" self-propelled howitzer - Defense Here

Deputy Chairman of the Board of Directors and General Manager of Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKE), Yasin Akdere, said today that the company

www.defensehere.com

Saithan · Jul 17, 2024

Yasar_TR said:
There may be some decision making process involved here. In conventional practice UTKU is the engine of choice going forward. But due to behind the frontline operational nature of these howitzers, the hybrid engine is also a good solution. MKE made a point of it with their prototype.

GÜRHAN (155 mm Kundağı Motorlu Hibrit Obüs)

GÜRHAN (155 mm Kundağı Motorlu Hibrit Obüs)

www.mke.gov.tr

View attachment 69502

Turkish MKE to produce electric version of "Fırtına" self-propelled howitzer - Defense Here

Deputy Chairman of the Board of Directors and General Manager of Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKE), Yasin Akdere, said today that the company

www.defensehere.com

The Hybrid solution is very impressive, and when I look at the numbers it should be a no brainer. There are however somethings that only the wise know from experience, so I assume that may be why we haven't swapped to Hybrid solution.

But I don't see why they can't have several prototypes and test them thoroughly while still acquiring some standard conventional ones.

I know that diversifying is more expensive for us, but it is necessary to be able to change mindset as well.

I think this could be an example of one of those old doctrins that needs to be challenged and changed or at least battlefield tested @Kartal1