TR Propulsion Systems

moz68k

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@Yasar_TR what can be a '' smart framework for advanced tactical engine (s-fate)'' ? since it seems TÜBİTAK is getting lots of patents for softwares recently in this year


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The S- (Smart) prefix on all of these indicate that TÜBİTAK is building an ecosystem of homegrown software tools for defence including Computer-aided Engineering (CAE) and Software Development Kits (SDKs).

Likely intent of some of tools I see:
- S-RT-DevKit: Integration with GİS, TÜBİTAK's real-time operating system (RTOS).
- S-TDL: Tactical Data Link.
- S-Kinematics: Rigid-body physics simulations.
- S-Sensor: Algorithms for signal processing (Kalman, Bayes), probably for sensor fusion.
- S-Vision: Probably computer vision (CV) algorithms.
- S-Force: From the logo, we see a jet doing an s-shaped maneuver. Maybe this tool calculates load forces?
- S-CRAFT: Probably the integrated development environment (create->write code, run, analyze->simulate, fortify->test&verify, track->version control). For analysis and verification, there's likely a system modeler a-la Simulink, but tailored to work with all these frameworks. There must be a 3-D simulator component for testing CV and sensor fusion algorithms.
- S-FATE: This is likely the above-mentioned simulator component.

These are probably the tools that will be used to develop all the "smart" features of KAAN and other upcoming aircraft. Very exciting.
 

Nilgiri

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Isn't getting publicly searchable patents for military top secret projects is a bit..., dumb? Even if all actual info available is just a few words on a webpage. I know America does it too. But what are they going to do? Sue China if they steal a military technology idea, based on your patent? 🤷‍♂️

With suitable folks involved in the inner circle decision making....its no issue at all.

You basically figure out cogent process of evaluation regarding what unique IP your organisation generated, is generating and is likely to generate and comparmentalise these into what is best served with patent filing (and its advantages) compared to what you dont file as patents but keep as trade secrets.

Patent filing has a number of advantages, you get to license and earn things and also attract HR, collaboration and so on from related patent filers around the world.

Where the disadvantages start to outweigh any advantages (huge+unique+valuable IP and easy route to copy and get away with it instead of licensing from you etc compared to your infringement routes to prosecute then)....simple, keep such things as trade secret.

But it needs proper evaluation of pros and cons for each element of IP and even IP process. There is no complete absolute argument either way.
 

Nilgiri

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Your guess is as good as mine. But reading between the lines it has something to do with a high end jet fighter engine tech using AI.
@Nilgiri has given his views on it. I concur with what he says.

There are many articles and YouTube news channels that claim that TF35K is in production. One of them is where Mete Yarar, claiming that prototype of a 38000lbf engine for Kaan has been designed and the parts production is progressing. How much credibility he has among defence buffs is another question. But as he is adamantly and openly claiming that Kaan engine is currently in the works, one has to think that there has got to be a “smoking gun” there.

We also know that Kale, RR, TEI. Ivchenko are all working together under a consortium to put together an indigenous engine for Kaan.

So in spite of all the secrecy and not enough being known about the Kaan engine, with all above leaked information and the clear need of an indigenous engine for our TFX fighter, it is normal that there are patent applications pertaining to KAAN without making it too open. (Remember how we all had got the wind of TF6000, through patent application)

I mean to scale a TF from 10k to 35k like what is being talked about for a while now as just one example (I would think its likely the main driver in Turkish efforts currently).

How would one optimally do the simulations for it etc.

That is where sound algorithm formation for the dataset handling comes in, so it doesn't take the time it would have taken say some decades ago.

RnD<--->deep machine learning<---->"RnD primed" (just one example of early loop 3 being a branch to something RnD/IP wise in loop 1 or 2)

At same time, there is no easy way to mesh "AI" (essentially a bunch of nested+networked algorithms) overnight into these things with magic wand as AI does not understand big picture stuff well at all.

I am, for example, biased towards Monte Carlo sims (and a number of related variants) as they have occupied the higher order routines I am currently working on from experience formed..... for the last few years (for later HR to properly then take further when PW gets around to hiring larger department/consultancy for it).

So for a scaling of a TF from X to say Y roughly speaking needs standard simulation runs, then sensitivity analysis and then a look into optimisation of all of this (to reduce the dataset needed by filtering relative noise compared to what you want so the supercomputer doesnt have to spend X hours on the "average usual or bad".... for every quality minute of something important etc).

AI can automate a whole lot of this (saving time and thus money) if you design it well. Basically in effect "freezing in time" a jet engine operating under some condition, then filter/screen the exact subset of air molecules (or higher order factors involving them) you want to run the next sim in the progression. Then you cross evaluate with other kinds of operating conditions and you can scale things far quicker that way (essentially making bridges in shortest amount of time by finding the smallest distances to bridge in the "data field").

If you are able to get same quality results by running a thousand units instead of the earlier requirement of say a million, thats orders of magnitude advantage.

Like pebbles in a zen garden, you can arrange and check systematic patterns too that can help you filter (and get even better resolution with same computing power applied to less etc)....essentially thats how the AI "learns" if you prioritise this aspect in some routine it does in sandbox you allot to it (and watch its progress and measure its relevancy and so on)....it does the searches and filters better and better with less higher order "human" handholding over time.
 

Kartal1

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Your guess is as good as mine. But reading between the lines it has something to do with a high end jet fighter engine tech using AI.
@Nilgiri has given his views on it. I concur with what he says.

There are many articles and YouTube news channels that claim that TF35K is in production. One of them is where Mete Yarar, claiming that prototype of a 38000lbf engine for Kaan has been designed and the parts production is progressing. How much credibility he has among defence buffs is another question. But as he is adamantly and openly claiming that Kaan engine is currently in the works, one has to think that there has got to be a “smoking gun” there.

We also know that Kale, RR, TEI. Ivchenko are all working together under a consortium to put together an indigenous engine for Kaan.

So in spite of all the secrecy and not enough being known about the Kaan engine, with all above leaked information and the clear need of an indigenous engine for our TFX fighter, it is normal that there are patent applications pertaining to KAAN without making it too open. (Remember how we all had got the wind of TF6000, through patent application)
Mete Yarar is either hit or miss. He as a security analyzer is not a guy who I would trust. His power lies in the sources he has access to.

Now only time will tell if he told the truth or he was just doing propaganda. No matter what comment he made, judging by the latest developments I would say that if there's a smoke then there is a fire.
 

Baklava Consumer

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I know there will be TVC on the TF-35000 but is the nozzle structure going evolve into the F119 nozzle structure? Does 2D TVC have any advantage over 3D TVC in maneuverability?
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CAN_TR

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TheInsider

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Yasar_TR

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I know there will be TVC on the TF-35000 but is the nozzle structure going evolve into the F119 nozzle structure? Does 2D TVC have any advantage over 3D TVC in maneuverability?
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They spent enough funds on that stealth f22 nozzle set up and materials science, to build a new plane from scratch.
It is still at the end of the day a compromise.
In real life, thrust vectoring allows for a lower deflection of the aerodynamic control surfaces so reducing drag and increasing manoeuvrability potential. So, as the engine thrust is directed as and when it is needed and with reduced drag the thrust efficiency attained from the same engine is larger. This is well represented in RR EJ200-TVC where a sizeable increase in thrust efficiency is attained whilst positively affecting the fuel consumption too..
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Although on paper and probably on case specific instances, it is true that a plane’s manoeuvrability is enhanced with addition of TVC , the cost and extra engineering needs in addition to the fine airframe geometry engineering now in use, have not made it a must in western fighter aircraft manufacturing practices.
During war games scenarios between Typhoons and F22s there were no significant advantages of f22’s TVC. If anything it was at times a hindrance to have TVC as at some close quarters dogfight scenarios where Typhoons were very potent.
TVC has many advantages especially when it comes to high manoeuvrability. But it comes at the cost of air speed. In the air, for a fighter plane, the airspeed is life.

F22 is arguably classed as the most agile and manoeuvrable western plane there is. During its development it was found that 3D TVC did not bring significant advantages to warrant instalment. So 2D was chosen.
Well it cost them enough trying to hide that 2D nozzle. I would dread to think how much more they would have had to spend trying to hide a 3D TVC nozzle!

Here is a comparison graph of f119 and f414 development cost:

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Quasar

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a Twin engine aircraft has a trick in its disposal and the distance between two engines helps the effectivness of the trick... thinking the distance of two engines on KAAN.... She may not even need thrust vectoring nozzles :devilish:
 
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Rodeo

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Any Twin engine aircraft has a trick in their disposal and the distance between two engines helps the effectivness of the trick... thinking the distance of two engines on KAAN.... She may not even need thrust vectoring nozzles :devilish:
It increases yaw performance but it has no direct effect on pitch or roll.
 

Baklava Consumer

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The F-22's nozzle was mainly developed to decrease IR signature (better stealth), maneuverability was not their main priority, while Chinese/Russian 3D TVC is sacrificing stealth for maneuverability.
Isn't it a better idea to go for 2D TVC? Considering it will be cheaper to develop and hide the IR signature than 3D TVC?
If TurAF is focusing on BVR and using Kaan as a deep strike asset, isn't stealth > maneuverability?

Is Kaan's airframe suitable for 2D nozzle like the one on the F-22?
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Baklava Consumer

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New Chinese 2D TVC engine (model) displayed at Zhuhai Defence Expo 2022​

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It isn't that difficult to build these 2D nozzles, in a country that can build single crystal turbine blades that undergo much higher temperatures and extreme conditions, these nozzles are nothing. The material science for nozzles is easily mastered as you can see from China.
I think the problem is 15-20% thrust loss, which means you need overall a much better engine to have the equivalent maximum take-off weight and range.

So does this seem feasible given Kaan's airframe?
 
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Huelague

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With a 2D TVC and stealth nozzle, Kaan will be in the master class of 5.gen fighter jets. A fusion of F-22 and F-35.
 

bruhman

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The F-22's nozzle was mainly developed to decrease IR signature (better stealth), maneuverability was not their main priority, while Chinese/Russian 3D TVC is sacrificing stealth for maneuverability.
Is this actually true? The commonly told tale is that the F-22 was meant to fly super high, an altitude at which control surfaces lose their efficiency thus necessitating thrust vectoring.

The nozzle is just a general part of all aspect stealth.

Honestly (this isn't about you specifically) I'm finding many of the comments here to be super cope regarding TVC. The supposed ""bad sides"" of TVC all seem bullshit to me. It's just complex and not really necessary for a jet with big ass control surfaces which won't fly at ridiculous altitudes or dogfight in an age of batshit missiles. If we had it, cool, but it's not worth pursuing. I dunno why people are coming up with some really far fetched cons for it though.

Like some guy here posted that TVC was a hindrance and "reduced air speed". How the F does that work? It doesn't reduce thrust or affect your turbines and compressors. This is the first time I've ever heard that the F22 had "reduced air speed" due to its TVC.
 

uçuyorum

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Is this actually true? The commonly told tale is that the F-22 was meant to fly super high, an altitude at which control surfaces lose their efficiency thus necessitating thrust vectoring.

The nozzle is just a general part of all aspect stealth.

Honestly (this isn't about you specifically) I'm finding many of the comments here to be super cope regarding TVC. The supposed ""bad sides"" of TVC all seem bullshit to me. It's just complex and not really necessary for a jet with big ass control surfaces which won't fly at ridiculous altitudes or dogfight in an age of batshit missiles. If we had it, cool, but it's not worth pursuing. I dunno why people are coming up with some really far fetched cons for it though.

Like some guy here posted that TVC was a hindrance and "reduced air speed". How the F does that work? It doesn't reduce thrust or affect your turbines and compressors. This is the first time I've ever heard that the F22 had "reduced air speed" due to its TVC.
To me it's just the cherry on top for F22, the main dish is the reduced rcs and heat signature of the F119 nozzle that F35 can't hope to match.
 

Yasar_TR

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Is this actually true? The commonly told tale is that the F-22 was meant to fly super high, an altitude at which control surfaces lose their efficiency thus necessitating thrust vectoring.

The nozzle is just a general part of all aspect stealth.

Honestly (this isn't about you specifically) I'm finding many of the comments here to be super cope regarding TVC. The supposed ""bad sides"" of TVC all seem bullshit to me. It's just complex and not really necessary for a jet with big ass control surfaces which won't fly at ridiculous altitudes or dogfight in an age of batshit missiles. If we had it, cool, but it's not worth pursuing. I dunno why people are coming up with some really far fetched cons for it though.

Like some guy here posted that TVC was a hindrance and "reduced air speed". How the F does that work? It doesn't reduce thrust or affect your turbines and compressors. This is the first time I've ever heard that the F22 had "reduced air speed" due to its TVC.
You need to read up on aerodynamic mechanics regarding thrust vectoring before you can make claims about TVC’s pros and cons.

For a fighter jet airspeed is life. If as a pilot you have lost great deal of your airspeed you are most vulnerable. Apart from the danger of stalling , to be able to recover your air speed is going to take time and that is when you are most open to getting shot. It was taken from a a German EF2000 pilot’s interview after his plane was tested against F22 Raptors that TVC at times became a hindrance as the plane lost so much of it’s airspeed after applying hard TVC manoeuvres that it was left vulnerable until it could regain it’s air speed.
TVC is great at times. But not a necessity.
Check this Pugachev Cobra Manoeuvre: If you haven’t lost your airspeed that you had at the beginning after second position, then you are a miracle performer. In any manoeuvre you will lose airspeed. It all depends how well you can manage it. TVC lets you lose it in abundance and that compromises the plane against enemy attack.

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  • Pro:
"The key to success in combat with all-aspect missiles is to shoot first. Supermaneuverability allows a pilot to gain a shot opportunity earlier than with conventional maneuverability.
  • Against:
"Because of the high energy bleed rate, the manoeuvre has no tactical value. It is just an airshow stunt".
Quote:
Because aggressive manoeuvres applied with TVC in close quarters fighting will strip the fighter off of energy, it may score a kill against the opponent in front of it, but it is left vulnerable to any others nearby. This inherent issue with thrust vectoring combat tactics is really why no other American fighters are equipped with it, and in fact, Raptor pilots themselves will tell you that the real benefit of TVC in their aircraft is maintaining a degree of manoeuvrability while flying at a high angle of attack when control surfaces aren’t as effective, rather than performing air show manoeuvres in a dogfight.
Unquote.

Here is the excerpt of article about effect of TVC

Quote:
According to the German pilots, once the fighting began, the F-22’s thrust-vector control (TVC) actually hindered the Raptor, rather than helping it when sparring in close quarters with the Typhoon.

“The key is to get as close as possible to the F-22 and stay there. They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively,” Gruene told Combat Aircraft magazine back in 2012. “As soon as you get to the merge… the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22.”

(The Merge, for clarification’s sake, isn’t just the name of a great aviation newsletter. It’s also what fighter pilots call it when two fighters meet head-on in a close-quarters pass.)

TVC does allow a fighter to perform extreme manoeuvres, but they come at a high cost. In a dogfight, airspeed is life, and the exotic displays TVC allows all scrub a great deal of it. When the F-22 uses its thrust-vectoring nozzles to turn on a dime, the jet is vulnerable until it can regain airspeed. If it doesn’t manage to score a kill immediately after performing such a manoeuvre , the Raptor becomes easy prey until its powerful pair of F-119-PW-100 turbofan engines can get all 70,000 pounds of thrust to get fighter moving again.
Unquote.

If you really delve in to why they applied 2D TVC to F22, you will find that 2D TVC actually imparts a good deal of Stealth characteristics to the f119 engine compared to the one without. When they checked about 3D TVC, they found stealth parameters deteriorate drastically. (As per @CAN_TR ’s post.)
 
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CAN_TR

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Like some guy here posted that TVC was a hindrance and "reduced air speed". How the F does that work? It doesn't reduce thrust or affect your turbines and compressors. This is the first time I've ever heard that the F22 had "reduced air speed" due to its TVC.

You still bleed energy when you do manuevers even though you aren't reducing thrust, that's aerodynamics.

TVC doesn't mean that you keep airspeed during manuevers it just gives you the extra capability to further tighten your turning radius by redirecting engine thrust, you still need your aerodynamic controls such as elevators, aileron, flaps... but on a lesser extent.

The harder you pull, the more energy you lose.
 

Strong AI

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The cooperation protocol established within the scope of the "Domestic Aircraft Engine Development" project between the 5th Main Maintenance Factory Directorate and TRMOTOR was signed by Brigadier General Kadir Eğriboyun, Director of the 5th Main Maintenance Factory, and Prof. Dr. Osman Saim Dinç, General Manager of TRMOTOR.

 

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