TR Propulsion Systems

[Strong AI]

What will be the engines of MMU KAAN and HÜRJET?
By Tolga Özbek

After the USA removed Turkey from the F-35 program, Turkey turned to F-16 Block 70s for its intermediate needs. Following a challenging process and the approval of the sale, attention has now shifted to the engines for the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) KAAN and HÜRJET projects.

The Block 1 engine in the KAAN is the F110, manufactured by General Electric, which is also used in F-16s. On the other hand, the HÜRJET, for which TUSAŞ (Turkish Aerospace Industries) conducts test flights, uses General Electric's F404 engines.

Will there be permission for these engines? I asked this question to GE officials at the opening of General Electric Aerospace's design center in Istanbul today.

GE officials noted that the permit is on its way to the Senate. GE is closely monitoring the situation to ensure the process proceeds smoothly. Another important advantage in this regard is the approval of the F-16 sale to Turkey. This step is considered to potentially ease the way for obtaining permission for the engines.

Despite the positive outlook, Turkey is proceeding very carefully.

TEI is closely following developments
There is also the TEI (TUSAŞ Engine Industries) aspect. TEI, which has a significant position in the global market for engine parts production, has recently been noted for its original engine projects. The TEI teams, particularly General Manager Prof. Dr. Mahmut Akşit, are working diligently to secure a share in this business, including the production of parts for F-16 Block 70s, and the assembly line establishment for the engines of MMU KAAN and HÜRJET.

MMU KAAN ve HÜRJET’in motorları ne olacak? – Tolga Özbek

tolgaozbek.com

 

[Strong AI]

Under the auspices of our Presidency of Defense Industries (@SavunmaSanayii), our first national helicopter engine, the TEI-TS1400, successfully completed the endurance tests conducted according to EASA CS-E 740 durability test requirements, performing 6-hour wear tests 15 times consecutively.

Following these tests, the ultimate power limits of the TEI-TS1400 engine were tested within the scenario of the helicopter making an emergency landing with one engine inoperative (OEI: One Engine Inoperative). The national engine, subjected to hundreds of hours of rigorous testing before and after the first flight, reached a power level of 1740 HP and successfully passed the same test in a second iteration.

With this historic test, the TEI-TS1400 engine proved that it can provide all the power needed for the GÖKBEY Helicopter under the most challenging conditions.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1806566900408685042

 

[Zafer]

With the TEI-TS1400 recording 1740 hp max power a 3 engine system is even more possible now. If a 3000 hp class domestic engine is not considered for the near term a 3 engine system is the solution.

 

[I_Love_F16]

With the TEI-TS1400 recording 1740 hp max power a 3 engine system is even more possible now. If a 3000 hp class domestic engine is not considered for the near term a 3 engine system is the solution.

Isn’t it when the engine is in emergency mode ? Limited to 30 seconds max or something like that.

 

[Zafer]

Isn’t it when the engine is in emergency mode ? Limited to 30 seconds max or something like that.

Yes it is but it also means that its regular power output may be increased too as the engine can take more pain and still stand. Its previous limit was 1660 hp, so if there is a 80 hp increase in the max power there maybe a commensurate increase in regular power. 3 x 80 = 240 hp total increase in max power probably translates to ~200 hp increase in regular output. Regardless of whether there is a power increase or not a 3 engine configuration maybe the only option for Türkiye in the short to medium term, so why wait when you can make it happen in a couple of years.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Isn’t it when the engine is in emergency mode ? Limited to 30 seconds max or something like that.

TS1400 is a 1400HP class turboshaft engine. Hence its specified safe continuous power delivery will be below 1400HP. But it’s safe 5 minute take off maximum power level will be around or may be slightly more than 1400HP.
These engines are subjected to extreme power demands during take off and in emergency landing situations whereby a single engine operation may be required. Therefore it is a necessary requirement that they should be able to deliver a great deal more power to help achieve safe landing on demand.

Below is the FAA paper on the subject of OEI 30 second and 2 minute max power operational condition.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/33-7A.pdf

Our TS1400 is already developing some 10% more continuous power than the LHTEC engine it is replacing which has a specified continuous take off power delivery of 1373HP.
But it has to be remembered that as an inherent situation with this size of radial flow turboshaft engine performance, the number of compressor stages are limited to two, and the output power delivery is thus limited. Continuous power delivery of these engines will not exceed around 1500HP.

Below is the table of LHTEC-CTS800-4N engine specified as a 1363HP maximum take off power engine and EASA certification test data sheet where the OEI and other power levels are given as :

OEI 30 sec. : 1620HP
OEI 2 min : 1486 HP
Continuous OIE : 1360 HP
Take-off 5 min : 1360 HP
Max continuous : 1281 HP

https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/7601/en

It is the same case where TEI is building under licence the T700 Blackhawk engines.
These engines are classified as 2000HP engines. But they continuously deliver 1716HP. Yet they have continuous max take off power of 1994HP.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/ait-mro/t700-tei-701d-2584

In short ; you can’t make a donkey behave like a horse.

 

[I_Love_F16]

TS1400 is a 1400HP class turboshaft engine. Hence its specified safe continuous power delivery will be below 1400HP. But it’s safe 5 minute take off maximum power level will be around or may be slightly more than 1400HP.
These engines are subjected to extreme power demands during take off and in emergency landing situations whereby a single engine operation may be required. Therefore it is a necessary requirement that they should be able to deliver a great deal more power to help achieve safe landing on demand.

Below is the FAA paper on the subject of OEI 30 second and 2 minute max power operational condition.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/33-7A.pdf

Our TS1400 is already developing some 10% more continuous power than the LHTEC engine it is replacing which has a specified continuous take off power delivery of 1373HP.
But it has to be remembered that as an inherent situation with this size of radial flow turboshaft engine performance, the number of compressor stages are limited to two, and the output power delivery is thus limited. Continuous power delivery of these engines will not exceed around 1500HP.

Below is the table of LHTEC-CTS800-4N engine specified as a 1363HP maximum take off power engine and EASA certification test data sheet where the OEI and other power levels are given as :

OEI 30 sec. : 1620HP
OEI 2 min : 1486 HP
Continuous OIE : 1360 HP
Take-off 5 min : 1360 HP
Max continuous : 1281 HP

https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/7601/en

It is the same case where TEI is building under licence the T700 Blackhawk engines.
These engines are classified as 2000HP engines. But they continuously deliver 1716HP. Yet they have continuous max take off power of 1994HP.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/ait-mro/t700-tei-701d-2584

Would be great if TEI decides to develop a 3000HP engine. But resources are limited, I guess. Turkey needs to be completely independent engines wise. It is one of our key weaknesses.

 

[Zafer]

Would be great if TEI decides to develop a 3000HP engine. But resources are limited, I guess. Turkey needs to be completely independent engines wise. It is one of our key weaknesses.

TEI have not finished taking their first engine through its paces yet. Once they are done with it by completing civilian certification and probably making a military version of it they will feel more comfortable starting development of a bigger engine.

 

[uçuyorum]

Once TEI starts selling serial production engines, especially TS1400 either on platform or by itself, particularly for export, and starts to solidify its revenue stream, I imagine it will have much easier time with projects.

 

[boredaf]

Once TEI starts selling serial production engines, especially TS1400 either on platform or by itself, particularly for export, and starts to solidify its revenue stream, I imagine it will have much easier time with projects.

With Gökbey, sure they'll find some buyers, but who is going to just buy the engine and doesn't have access to engines from the West or Russia or China?

 

[Saithan]

TS1400 is a 1400HP class turboshaft engine. Hence its specified safe continuous power delivery will be below 1400HP. But it’s safe 5 minute take off maximum power level will be around or may be slightly more than 1400HP.
These engines are subjected to extreme power demands during take off and in emergency landing situations whereby a single engine operation may be required. Therefore it is a necessary requirement that they should be able to deliver a great deal more power to help achieve safe landing on demand.

Below is the FAA paper on the subject of OEI 30 second and 2 minute max power operational condition.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/33-7A.pdf

Our TS1400 is already developing some 10% more continuous power than the LHTEC engine it is replacing which has a specified continuous take off power delivery of 1373HP.
But it has to be remembered that as an inherent situation with this size of radial flow turboshaft engine performance, the number of compressor stages are limited to two, and the output power delivery is thus limited. Continuous power delivery of these engines will not exceed around 1500HP.

Below is the table of LHTEC-CTS800-4N engine specified as a 1363HP maximum take off power engine and EASA certification test data sheet where the OEI and other power levels are given as :

OEI 30 sec. : 1620HP
OEI 2 min : 1486 HP
Continuous OIE : 1360 HP
Take-off 5 min : 1360 HP
Max continuous : 1281 HP

https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/7601/en

It is the same case where TEI is building under licence the T700 Blackhawk engines.
These engines are classified as 2000HP engines. But they continuously deliver 1716HP. Yet they have continuous max take off power of 1994HP.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/ait-mro/t700-tei-701d-2584

In short ; you can’t make a donkey behave like a horse.

If I understand correctly TS1400 delivers 1540hp in extreme conditions if those 10% extra are included, but if the tonnage of a helicopter are similar doesn’t that mean the LTECH is better since it delivers 15% more in extreme conditions.

what I want to know is if LTECH delivers more HP in extreme conditions doesn’t that mean the fall/descend of the helicopter is slower than TS1400 that only delivers 10% extra. It’s been a while since I had physics, but the kinetic energy of something falling faster vs something falling slower would be different, right ?

 

[uçuyorum]

With Gökbey, sure they'll find some buyers, but who is going to just buy the engine and doesn't have access to engines from the West or Russia or China?

I remember hearing Mahmut Akşit in some interview talking about interest

 

[Yasar_TR]

If I understand correctly TS1400 delivers 1540hp in extreme conditions if those 10% extra are included, but if the tonnage of a helicopter are similar doesn’t that mean the LTECH is better since it delivers 15% more in extreme conditions.

what I want to know is if LTECH delivers more HP in extreme conditions doesn’t that mean the fall/descend of the helicopter is slower than TS1400 that only delivers 10% extra. It’s been a while since I had physics, but the kinetic energy of something falling faster vs something falling slower would be different, right ?

We are doing guesswork here.
Including Dr Aksit many people give different values of power ratings for the TS1400.
But to have achieved an OEI 30 second power rating of 1740HP means that our TS1400 is actually developing more power than the LHTEC engine .
TEI, on their site gives an OEI 30sec power delivery of 1660HP. So evidently whilst being improved all the time they managed to get higher power output from that engine.

Dr Aksit himself had stated that our TS1400 was able to develop more than 100HP when compared to the US engine.
Most engine manufacturers state the 5min maximum take off power. If you take that in to consideration than 10% increase will mean 1496HP for TS1400.

One thing is clear ; Our engine is more powerful. The rest and the calculations are guesswork.

 

[Huelague]

We are doing guesswork here.
Including Dr Aksit many people give different values of power ratings for the TS1400.
But to have achieved an OEI 30 second power rating of 1740HP means that our TS1400 is actually developing more power than the LHTEC engine .
TEI, on their site gives an OEI 30sec power delivery of 1660HP. So evidently whilst being improved all the time they managed to get higher power output from that engine.

Dr Aksit himself had stated that our TS1400 was able to develop more than 100HP when compared to the US engine.
Most engine manufacturers state the 5min maximum take off power. If you take that in to consideration than 10% increase will mean 1496HP for TS1400 .

One thing is clear ; Our engine is more powerful. The rest and the calculations are guesswork.

...and less consumption of fuel.

 

[TheInsider]

It is really good to see EASA tests are progressing smoothly. Hopefully TS-1400 can pass all EASA tests this year (EASA should send experts for tests more frequently) and TS-1400 mass production can start in 2025.