TR Propulsion Systems

[Bogeyman]

That means they already have a ramjet engine!
Supersonic Combustion Ramjet = scramjet.
Welcome Turkish “Meteor” AAM.

The lower limit of hypersonic speed is 5 Mach. Theoretically Mach 4.4 is a supersonic speed. However, the engine would definitely have been designed for hypersonic speeds.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Rotating Detonation Engine Technologies (page 23)

https://www.roketsan.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Roketsan-Dergi-Say%C4%B1-18.pdf

Roketsan is developing a combustion chamber for Scramjet engines. It has been announced that the lower limit of the developed engine technology is 4.4 Mach and the upper limit is capable of flying at speeds between 7.3 Mach.
Meanwhile, ROKETSAN announced that "Rotating Detonation Engine Technologies" can be used in Hypersonic cruise missiles.

RDE is not a scramjet engine. It is a totally new technology that can provide hypersonic flight. In fact it picks up from where scramjet stops. Scramjet is atmosphere breathing engine. Can not operate in space. Maxes out at half the orbital speed. But RDE can operate in atmosphere and out of atmosphere and can go 20+ mach and more.

Progress of continuously rotating detonation engines

Continuously rotating detonation engine (CRDE) is a focus for concern in the field of aerospace propulsion. It has several advantages, including one-i…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

Roketsan is developing a combustion chamber for Scramjet engines. It has been announced that the lower limit of the developed engine technology is 4.4 Mach and the upper limit is capable of flying at speeds between 7.3 Mach.

Have you got a source for this?
scramjet and rde are different propulsion technologies.

 

[Yasar_TR]

The lower limit of hypersonic speed is 5 Mach. Theoretically Mach 4.4 is a supersonic speed. However, the engine would definitely have been designed for hypersonic speeds.

I know! Scramjet picks up where ramjet stops. A ramjet works best between 2.5-6 Mach . After this it is not efficient. Scramjet picks up around 4 Mach and goes up to just under 10 Mach. Theoretically it could go as high as 15 Mach. But in tests never managed more than 9.6 Mach.

 

[Bogeyman]

Have you got a source for this?
scramjet and rde are different propulsion technologies.

It is emphasized on page 23 that the aforementioned technologies have speeds between 1500-2500 m / sec. When you convert m/s to Mach, you will see that the engine can fly between 4.4 Mach and 7.3 Mach speeds.

As you can see at the end of the article, it is emphasized that hypersonic cruise missiles can be developed with these technologies.

 

[Anmdt]

SAGE manager has cleared this matter earlier by saying they are the one who have capabilities to develop the technology, while other companies (Roketsan) will be applying and converting this technology into the products.

So it is, SAGE developing ram/scramjet , Roketsan converting these into final products.

 

[Era_shield]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361035514531491844

"We have some studies on TEI-TS3000. In fact, a larger engine than that is currently being spoken. It has not started officially, but it has preliminary work. "

I don't understand this translation fully. Is this larger engine a different engine than the TS3000?

The tweet above it is interesting too. Translation: "A technologically advanced country in the far-east wants to buy the TEI-PD170 from us. They're not happy with the Western engine they currently use. We're now thinking if we should sell it, or if it would be copied..."

 

[Zafer]

SAGE manager has cleared this matter earlier by saying they are the one who have capabilities to develop the technology, while other companies (Roketsan) will be applying and converting this technology into the products.

So it is, SAGE developing ram/scramjet , Roketsan converting these into final products.

Nothing is written on stone, there may be more than one institution working on such technology. SAGE is not geared to make serial productions other than some niche products so it is natural that Roketsan produces SAGE's RD output but this shouldn't stop Roketsan from doing their own research on the subject.

 

[Anmdt]

Nothing is written on stone, there may be more than one institution working on such technology. SAGE is not geared to make serial productions other than some niche products so it is natural that Roketsan produces SAGE's RD output but this shouldn't stop Roketsan from doing their own research on the subject.

It is pointless, we don't have luxury of having 2 institutes seperately working on such a critical project and seperately wasting sources, especially while one, Sage, has already started and gained the critical knowledge: Roketsan will be leaning on Sage for the core technology. Sage manager (mr. okumus) is not talking pointless, they have probably had meeting with roketsan regarding to that and already set a roadmap for development.
He won't brag for nothing by saying "we have the critical knowledge to develop it"

"TÜBİTAK SAGE halen bir ramjet motoru geliştirme çalışması yürütmektedir. Bu kapsamda ramjet motor geliştirmek için Türkiye’de tek olan bir Hava Solumalı İtki Sistemleri Altyapısı geliştirilmektedir. Altyapı kurulum aşamasında olup ilk testler 2020 yılı içerisinde kabul testlerine başlayacaktır. Altyapının tamamen bizim ekibimiz tarafından geliştiriliyor olması çok önemli çünkü her türlü ihtiyaca göre değişiklikler bizim tarafından yapılabilecek ve kısıtlamalara maruz kalmayacağız. Bu test altyapısı bittiğinde dünyada sayılı test alt yapıları arasına girecektir. Gördüğünüz gibi biz ramjet motoru geliştiriyoruz demek sadece yetmiyor. Bu bir vizyon meselesi. Bu çalışmalar TÜBİTAK SAGE de çok eskiden başladı. Kağıt üzerinde yapılan şeyler test edilmediği sürece bir hiçtir. Biz bu felsefe ile çok uzun zamandır bu altyapıyı geliştiriyoruz. Ayrıca Ramjet motoru geliştirme ile ilgili çalışmalarımız da büyük bir hızla devam ediyor. Yakında bazı testleri de yapabileceğiz."

In summary:
Sage has already been establishing a test facility for air breathing hypersonic missiles, moreover Sage already signed and granted a fund for ramjet project.

 

[mulj]

important step for future development and inovations in this field

TEI announced that the ''Aviation Engines School'' will be opened. According to the statement, it was stated that the applications for the online and free education program, which will last for 14 weeks, will end on Feb 28

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361586227867242498

 

[Zafer]

It is pointless, we don't have luxury of having 2 institutes seperately working on such a critical project and seperately wasting sources, especially while one, Sage, has already started and gained the critical knowledge: Roketsan will be leaning on Sage for the core technology. Sage manager (mr. okumus) is not talking pointless, they have probably had meeting with roketsan regarding to that and already set a roadmap for development.
He won't brag for nothing by saying "we have the critical knowledge to develop it"

"TÜBİTAK SAGE halen bir ramjet motoru geliştirme çalışması yürütmektedir. Bu kapsamda ramjet motor geliştirmek için Türkiye’de tek olan bir Hava Solumalı İtki Sistemleri Altyapısı geliştirilmektedir. Altyapı kurulum aşamasında olup ilk testler 2020 yılı içerisinde kabul testlerine başlayacaktır. Altyapının tamamen bizim ekibimiz tarafından geliştiriliyor olması çok önemli çünkü her türlü ihtiyaca göre değişiklikler bizim tarafından yapılabilecek ve kısıtlamalara maruz kalmayacağız. Bu test altyapısı bittiğinde dünyada sayılı test alt yapıları arasına girecektir. Gördüğünüz gibi biz ramjet motoru geliştiriyoruz demek sadece yetmiyor. Bu bir vizyon meselesi. Bu çalışmalar TÜBİTAK SAGE de çok eskiden başladı. Kağıt üzerinde yapılan şeyler test edilmediği sürece bir hiçtir. Biz bu felsefe ile çok uzun zamandır bu altyapıyı geliştiriyoruz. Ayrıca Ramjet motoru geliştirme ile ilgili çalışmalarımız da büyük bir hızla devam ediyor. Yakında bazı testleri de yapabileceğiz."

In summary:
Sage has already been establishing a test facility for air breathing hypersonic missiles, moreover Sage already signed and granted a fund for ramjet project.

We have just recently seen that Korea had more than one company working on their similar project.

There are variations of every RD project and more brains means more solutions.
It makes a lot of sense but alas, who will see that.

 

[Saithan]

I would very much like it if our Defence industry could make the same ramjet but smaller and weight less. Cost and efficiency optimized.

Same goes for propulsion systems, if I same performance can be achieved with smaller and lighter system same cost or cheaper then that is a big plus in my book.

Like how Intel and Ryzen develops processors with more cores and such, which is energy efficient, but we all know the old Intel Pentium 3 was/is the best processor they made because it's fast, but uses a lot energy. Something like that.

 

[Combat-Master]

The tweet above it is interesting too. Translation: "A technologically advanced country in the far-east wants to buy the TEI-PD170 from us. They're not happy with the Western engine they currently use. We're now thinking if we should sell it, or if it would be copied..."

Remember China AVIC bought German engine 'modifier' Thielert Centurion not so long ago, Thielert Centurion just modifies Mercedes engines afaik. I bet they are regretting their decision. Modified Production aviation engine < Specifically made aviation engine

 

[Anmdt]

We have just recently seen that Korea had more than one company working on their similar project.

There are variations of every RD project and more brains means more solutions.
It makes a lot of sense but alas, who will see that.

And now compare R&D budget of two countries and educated manpower + outsourcing (foreigner sources) abilities.

More brains more solutions, if this is what you say then it should makes more sense for you to both of companies work on a single project through collaboration like it happens in many other projects.

important step for future development and inovations in this field

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361586227867242498

This news is actually greater than many others we have heard recently. There is a shortage for middle men in the defence industries.
Other branches (Tank manufacturers, MKEK, shipyards, roketsan) also should follow a similar way establishing technical high schools and undergraduate programmes to train technicians.
If i remember Aselsan already has such a school to supply their needs of personnels.

 

[Zafer]

And now compare R&D budget of two countries and educated manpower + outsourcing (foreigner sources) abilities.

More brains more solutions, if this is what you say then it should makes more sense for you to both of companies work on a single project through collaboration like it happens in many other projects.

Hypersonic propulsion is an area that can give the most punch with a single achievement and can be supported above and beyond the general level of RD budgets. Separate entities have their identities that they can take pride in, combining efforts and making them one eliminates the competition which is required to give the sense of achievement. Countries compete, companies compete, people compete. Competition is the essence of development. We can not afford to be incompetent.

 

[Yasar_TR]

It is emphasized on page 23 that the aforementioned technologies have speeds between 1500-2500 m / sec. When you convert m/s to Mach, you will see that the engine can fly between 4.4 Mach and 7.3 Mach speeds.

As you can see at the end of the article, it is emphasized that hypersonic cruise missiles can be developed with these technologies.

I know what RDE can do. I wanted to know if you have a source that supports that Roketsan is working on scramjet.
RDE is not scramjet.

 

[Bogeyman]

I know what RDE can do. I wanted to know if you have a source that supports that Roketsan is working on scramjet.
RDE is not scramjet.

Roketsan does not agree with you. There is nothing I can do.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Roketsan does not agree with you. There is nothing I can do.

I have read the Roketsan’s catalogue pages 23 to 24 three times over. There is no mention of scramjet engine and RDE being the same. In fact It definitely isn’t. It is a totally new technology of propulsion that can make the same engine operate in atmospheric conditions and in space.
RDE works on a principle of a shock wave created by the ignition of fuels which is detonated and is kept detonated by feeding more fuels in to the super heated chamber.
Scramjet is in essence a ramjet engine which has supersonic gas movement in its combustion chamber as opposed to subsonic in ramjet. It is a jet engine of sorts.
Yes they are both hypersonic speed propulsion techniques. But quite different.
In fact if you investigate further you will find that scramjet needs atmosphere to breathe. Scramjet powers missiles!
But an RDE works with fuels used in space rockets!
So RDE powered vehicle can travel in atmosphere and in space. In fact as this technology gives at least 25% more efficiency over rocket engines it is going to be the near future of space flight.
quote:
Gelecekte roket motorlarının yanı sıra hava solumalı hipersonik araçlarda ve gaz türbinlerinde de detonasyon teknolojisinin kullanılması hedeflenmektedir.
unquote.
It says; “in the future as well as in rocket engines its targeted that this technology will be used in air breathing hypersonic vehicles too.”
It does not say anything about scramjet!

https://www.roketsan.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Roketsan-Dergi-Sayı-18.pdf

 

[Hexciter]

The tweet above it is interesting too. Translation: "A technologically advanced country in the far-east wants to buy the TEI-PD170 from us. They're not happy with the Western engine they currently use. We're now thinking if we should sell it, or if it would be copied..."

Is TS-7500 coming?
PS: Engine of CH-53K

 

[Bogeyman]

I have read the Roketsan’s catalogue pages 23 to 24 three times over. There is no mention of scramjet engine and RDE being the same. In fact It definitely isn’t. It is a totally new technology of propulsion that can make the same engine operate in atmospheric conditions and in space.
RDE works on a principle of a shock wave created by the ignition of fuels which is detonated and is kept detonated by feeding more fuels in to the super heated chamber.
Scramjet is in essence a ramjet engine which has supersonic gas movement in its combustion chamber as opposed to subsonic in ramjet. It is a jet engine of sorts.
Yes they are both hypersonic speed propulsion techniques. But quite different.
In fact if you investigate further you will find that scramjet needs atmosphere to breathe. Scramjet powers missiles!
But an RDE works with fuels used in space rockets!
So RDE powered vehicle can travel in atmosphere and in space. In fact as this technology gives at least 25% more efficiency over rocket engines it is going to be the near future of space flight.
quote:
Gelecekte roket motorlarının yanı sıra hava solumalı hipersonik araçlarda ve gaz türbinlerinde de detonasyon teknolojisinin kullanılması hedeflenmektedir.
unquote.
It says; “in the future as well as in rocket engines its targeted that this technology will be used in air breathing hypersonic vehicles too.”
It does not say anything about scramjet!

https://www.roketsan.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Roketsan-Dergi-Sayı-18.pdf

Rotating Detonation Engine (RDEs) were also defined as scramjets in a conference. However, I could not download the pdf version.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/5.0035437