TR Propulsion Systems

[nakaFH]

Gentleman,

*If you pay attention Tumosan 7.8L engine has 540 HP but 1600 nm torque. BMC Azra engine has 600 HP 2700 nm torque value.

*This doesn't mean that Tumosan engine is better.

*It's for HP dominant engine easily inrease RPM than BMC Azra . But, BMC Azra has better torque character and better first movement ability with the help of high output of driveshaft turning moment.

*Also Azra is suitable for heavier vehicles or better gearbox output values but consume a little bit more fuel.

*Especially in heavy duty machines high torque engines wrt HP values prefered. But when better acceleration is needed high HP and low fuel consumption is prefered wrt torque values.

*Because for light vehicles low amount (enough) torque is enough for overcome needed amount of moment of inertia.

*To get more torque value you will consume more fuel in more volume and low acceleration with long piston connecting rod movement.

*Also, you may get very different HP and torque values from the same volume engine by the help of turbochargers and superchargers and ECU software change including fuel pressure value/amount/timing.

*But these type of tuned or forced engines need rugged engine elements with better resistant materials.

*MTU 883 engine for our Altay has very high torque (5000 Nm) wrt 1500 hp power output. And for a constraint dimensions in the back side of tank body it is so compact and well designed for its special duty.

*But it will have shortened time between overhauls wrt same volume but low torque values similar engines. And it is one of the best heavy duty diesel engine with super ratio of weight/power&torque.

*This is coming from the German's brilliant experience more than hundred years about machine and materials.

 

[TheInsider]

Gentlemen what is important is energy and torque density. Tümosan engine ties with Azra engine in torque density and is a lot better in energy density numbers don't lie. Stop comparing apples with oranges. If we do that we can get this approach is not scientific you can apply those things to the Tümosan engine too. Energy per volume and torque per volume are the most important metrics. Those metrics decide how compact your engine will be. All of the engines above are turbo intercooler engines(Tümosan engine uses single turbo and BMC uses single turbo for 400 and 600hp engines and double turbo for 1000 and 1500hp engines) so everyone uses those to get more power per volume. On a per-volume basis, Tümosan is better especially 400 and 600hp variants are way behind Tümosan.

For example, the 400hp 8.4L (47 HP per liter do you think this is a coincidence?) engine of the BMC produces similar torque and less power from a bigger volume than Tümosan(7.8L). That engine has similar torque output compared to the Tümosan engine. Tümosan engines satisfy all of stage 3 and 4 emission rules on top of being more energy dense.

https://www.bmcpower.com.tr/tr/sayfa/26/ttza-projesi

 

[Oublious]

Gentlemen what is important is energy and torque density. Tümosan engine ties with Azra engine in torque density and is a lot better in energy density numbers don't lie. Stop comparing apples with oranges. If we do that we can get this approach is not scientific you can apply those things to the Tümosan engine too. Energy per volume and torque per volume are the most important metrics. Those metrics decide how compact your engine will be. All of the engines above are turbo intercooler engines(Tümosan engine uses single turbo and BMC uses single turbo for 400 and 600hp engines and double turbo for 1000 and 1500hp engines) so everyone uses those to get more power per volume. On a per-volume basis, Tümosan is better especially 400 and 600hp variants are way behind Tümosan.

For example, the 400hp 8.4L (47 HP per liter do you think this is a coincidence?) engine of the BMC produces similar torque and less power from a bigger volume than Tümosan(7.8L). That engine has similar torque output compared to the Tümosan engine. Tümosan engines satisfy all of stage 3 and 4 emission rules on top of being more energy dense.

https://www.bmcpower.com.tr/tr/sayfa/26/ttza-projesi

Maybe Tumosan use bigger Turbo, that means Turbo that will need more maintenance. Engines with more capacity will have more torque with out bigger turbo.

 

[TheInsider]

Maybe Tumosan use bigger Turbo, that means Turbo that will need more maintenance. Engines with more capacity will have more torque with out bigger turbo.

Doesn't explain such a big difference look at the values.

400HP
8.4L
1700nm

540HP
7.8L
1600Nm.

 

[Huelague]

Every company is cooking his little own meal. Why not creating a big company like Bosch?

 

[Merzifonlu]

Gentlemen what is important is energy and torque density. Tümosan engine ties with Azra engine in torque density and is a lot better in energy density numbers don't lie.

https://www.bmcpower.com.tr/tr/sayfa/26/ttza-projesi

Still, we cannot say that Tümosan's engine is better. We do not yet know the maintenance parameters. It could have achieved this power density by using less mass and volume. But if it will be serviced twice as often as a BMC engine, it won't make much sense.

 

[TheInsider]

Still, we cannot say that Tümosan's engine is better. We do not yet know the maintenance parameters. It could have achieved this power density by using less mass and volume. But if it will be serviced twice as often as a BMC engine, it won't make much sense.

We will know it soon as the Tümosan engine is on trial with the FNSS armored vehicle.

 

[Merzifonlu]

We will know it soon as the Tümosan engine is in trials with the FNSS armored vehicle.

That's true. Both BMC and Tümosan's engines will be put into service in the near future. Based on the feedback from TSK, then we can make the right decision.

 

[nakaFH]

Gentlemen what is important is energy and torque density. Tümosan engine ties with Azra engine in torque density and is a lot better in energy density numbers don't lie. Stop comparing apples with oranges. If we do that we can get this approach is not scientific you can apply those things to the Tümosan engine too. Energy per volume and torque per volume are the most important metrics. Those metrics decide how compact your engine will be. All of the engines above are turbo intercooler engines(Tümosan engine uses single turbo and BMC uses single turbo for 400 and 600hp engines and double turbo for 1000 and 1500hp engines) so everyone uses those to get more power per volume. On a per-volume basis, Tümosan is better especially 400 and 600hp variants are way behind Tümosan.

For example, the 400hp 8.4L (47 HP per liter do you think this is a coincidence?) engine of the BMC produces similar torque and less power from a bigger volume than Tümosan(7.8L). That engine has similar torque output compared to the Tümosan engine. Tümosan engines satisfy all of stage 3 and 4 emission rules on top of being more energy dense.

https://www.bmcpower.com.tr/tr/sayfa/26/ttza-projesi

No need to prolong technical discussion. I'm trying to tell the detail tech application mentality rest is not important. Whether you or me right is not important.

But, torque and power are one whitin the other. I mean power formula consist torque.... HP=TorquexRPM/5252

Torque and horsepower depends on the nature of your needs.

*If you’re trying to pull a tree-stump or a broken tank you will need HIGH Torque more than HP.

* If you need speed with less load HP is more important than torque.

* And high torque engine with same HP you will get enough torque at low RPM and will help for heavy duty jobs.

* But if you need an engine sporty for light armoured vehicles less torque high HP is good for better power/weight ratio in a balanced manner.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

@Test7 Can we find the average electrical energy values that known gas turbine engines such as F110, AI-322, PT6 and AI-450 can produce? This is a classified information? I searched them on net but couldn't find a single value.

 

[Test7]

@Test7 Can we find the average electrical energy values that known gas turbine engines such as F110, AI-322, PT6 and AI-450 can produce? This is a classified information? I searched them on net but couldn't find a single value.

This is all I could find. I think it is necessary to know which alternator is used.

Military fighter jets have high power requirements for their size (eg. the F16 has a 40/60kVA generator driven by a hydraulic constant speed drive from the engine). Because of the high power consumption, higher voltages than 28V are used - 120/208 400Hz 3-phase- to keep the weight of wires down. The 1970-era F16 is a fly-by-wire so there is also a backup generator and multiple batteries. The 3-phase AC can be easily converted to 28VDC using a transformer-rectifier unit (TRU).

Electrical energy in a fighter aircraft

A car uses a car battery and an alternator powered by the engine. But where does the electrical energy for fighter aircraft comes from to maintain the onboard systems? And which voltage and freque...

electronics.stackexchange.com

 

[Hexciter]

BMC Power: towards national powerpacks for heavy armoured vehicles​

26/08/2021
By Paolo Valpolini
The lack of autonomy in the powerpack domain for heavy armoured vehicles, such as infantry fighting vehicles and main battle tanks, has been a key issue in Turkey for some time. The limitations on export imposed by a number of countries, including Germany which MTU powerpack have been among the most widely used, increased the need for a national autonomy also in that field.
To cope with this in March 2017 BMC Automotive Industry and Trade Inc. gave birth to a fully controlled company, BMC Power Engine and Control Technologies Inc. with the aim to reach full independency in the engine compartment within 2023.

click on image to enlarge
One of the key issues is the powerpack destined to the Altay MBT; according to BMC sources an agreement was reached for installing the engine and transmission provided by Doosan and S&T Dynamics of South Korea on the Turkish-made MBT.
At IDEF 2021 it was possible to see in the BMC stand an Altay MBT as well as a Leopard 2 chassis fitted with the Altay turret, armed with the original 44-calibre gun of the Leopard 2A4. However, there is not yet an announced service date for the Altay, which delay is mostly due to the powerpack issue. Starring in the BMC stand was the Altuğ 8×8 armoured vehicle, which could be seen in two variants, the fire support and the armoured personnel carrier. The latter one was fitted with the first product issued from the crash R&D programme launched by BMC Power to equip Turkish armoured vehicles with national powerpacks.

click on image to enlarge
The engine is a 6-cylinder in line with a 12.8 litres combustion volume, providing 600 hp. First ignited in mid-2018, the 600 hp engine has completed bench tests and test on a vehicle are currently underway, according to BMC Power sources. A common-rail engine, it is fitted with a military grade starter-alternator, and fulfils Euro III regulations, which makes it inherently multi-fuel capable. It provides a torque of 2.500 Nm at 1,400 rpm and 3,000 Nm at 1,900 rpm, while according to BMC sources its power output has a growth margin of around 15%.

click on image to enlarge
A 4-cylinder derivative of the aforementioned engine is also under development. It was first ignited in 2020, features an 8.4 litres combustion volume and provides 400 hp. This might well provide a national powerpack solution to the Kirpi 4×4 MRAP-type vehicle adopted by Turkish Land Forces and Gendarmerie and by seven export customers, which is currently powered by a Cummins engine.
While those engines remained on exhibition for the whole IDEF, three items disappeared after Day One, following the presidential inauguration. These were the two V engines and one transmission that are being developed by BMC Power.

click on image to enlarge
The full solution for a tracked AIFV was visible, with the V8 engine providing an output of 1,000 hp, together with its transmission. First ignited in 2020, it has a 16.2 litres combustion volume, no more data being available for the time being.


click on image to enlarge
The 100 hp high torque transmission was also showcased at IDEF. The V12 engine was also exhibited, which provides the 1,500 hp required for the Altay. According to BMC Power this engine was fired up for the first time in 2021. The related 6+2 cross drive transmission was however not on exhibition. Should the first batch of 250 Altay be fitted with the South Korean engine, the BMC Power V12 would provide a national solution for the further 750 MBTs planned to be produced for the Turkish Land Forces. At IDEF 2023 the path towards a full independency in the armoured vehicles power units field will certainly become more clear.
Photos by P. Valpolini

BMC Power: towards national powerpacks for heavy armoured vehicles - EDR Magazine

By Paolo Valpolini The lack of autonomy in the powerpack domain for heavy armoured vehicles, such as infantry fighting vehicles

www.edrmagazine.eu

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Shared as additional information to the ongoing discussion on TfX thread.

Axial flow type turbofan engines:
M88-4E (~70cm diameter)
F404-GE-102 (71cm diameter)
F404-IN20 (71cm diameter)
EJ-200 (80cm diameter)
F110 (118cm diameter)



CTS800-4A (60cm diameter) - Centrifugal (radial) compressor type turboshaft
TV3-117 (72cm diameter) - Axial flow type turboshaft

TEI-TJ300 (22,4cm diameter) - Axial flow type turbojet engine
TEI-T700 (65cm diameter) - Axial flow type turboshaft
TEI-TS1400 (60cm diameter) - Centrifugal flow type turboshaft
TEI-TS3000 (~65-70cm diameter) -High likely a turboshaft with axial compressor type similar to its competitors.


TEI-TJ6000 (~60cm diameter) (MIUS-AI322 (62,4cm diameter) less powerful (F variant: 5500lbf dry, 9200lbf afterburner) but I consider this Ukrainian engine as similar thrust level with Tj6000). Turkish engine will provide better thrust at smaller diameter due to better metallurgy and SCB technology) - I predict that It will be turbojet variant of re-designed TS1400 core with axial flow type compressor. TJ6000 will provide 6000lbf dry thrust and ~10,000lbf with afterburners.

AI-322

 

[Cabatli_TR]

If TEI really follows the path I mentioned above (they most likely follows), then the development of TS3000 axial flow type turboshaft will be an indication that TEI will reach 15000-18000lbf thrust level technology in the turbofan engines as well.

These will be the intermediate engines that we will see on the way to the development of the TfX engine mentioned by İsmail Demir.

 

[Zafer]

Aeroderivative marine turbines typically have 80% commonality with their aero originals.
I reckon some of TEI's engines can branch off to marine if it is convenient considering also the GE marine turbine deal.

 

[Nilgiri]

@Test7 Can we find the average electrical energy values that known gas turbine engines such as F110, AI-322, PT6 and AI-450 can produce? This is a classified information? I searched them on net but couldn't find a single value.

This is all I could find. I think it is necessary to know which alternator is used.

Military fighter jets have high power requirements for their size (eg. the F16 has a 40/60kVA generator driven by a hydraulic constant speed drive from the engine). Because of the high power consumption, higher voltages than 28V are used - 120/208 400Hz 3-phase- to keep the weight of wires down. The 1970-era F16 is a fly-by-wire so there is also a backup generator and multiple batteries. The 3-phase AC can be easily converted to 28VDC using a transformer-rectifier unit (TRU).

Electrical energy in a fighter aircraft

A car uses a car battery and an alternator powered by the engine. But where does the electrical energy for fighter aircraft comes from to maintain the onboard systems? And which voltage and freque...

electronics.stackexchange.com

Some more useful info here:

Lockheed Martin to fly all-electric F-16

LOCKHEEDMARTIN has been cleared to proceed with modification of an F-16 to demonstrate the all-electric flight controls planned for the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). The Advanced Fighter Technology Integration (AFTI)/ F-16 will be modified in 1998 for flight tests starting in January 1999. The...

www.flightglobal.com

The AFTI/F-16's hydraulic flight-controls will be removed and replaced with a flight-critical electric power and actuation system consisting of a dual-channel generator on the engine, a back-up generator on the emergency power- unit (EPU) and five electro-hydrostatic actuators (EHAs) for the flaperons, horizontal tail and rudder.

Griswold says that the Sundstrand switched-reluctance generator will supply two independent channels of 270VDC electrical power. The fault-tolerant generator is rated at 200kW, but will be limited to 80kW in the F-16. Only 2-3kW will be needed in the cruise, Griswold says. A Lucas emergency power-generation system, driven by the hydrazine-powered EPU, will provide one back-up channel, while an 85Ah battery will provide a "get-home" capability.

=========================

I would imagine most fighters are give or take around this requirement (cpl kW, and dual channel so maybe x2) as well, given this (cruise req) represents a fraction of a percentage of what the effective power of the engine(s) are (well into the several 100s of kW effectively). The larger capacity (80kW here) would be only for "worst case" start up/re-start procedure.

i.e in the end its driven by what the needs of the onboard electrical consuming systems are (actuators, avionics etc) primarily.

One can do some scaling relative to F-16 engine's thrust and F-16's weight too for other platforms, but it would largely be secondary driver (i.e the thrust and mass budget raw scope) given the small % involved.

 

[Combat-Master]

Thanks to @Stimpy75 for the images and specifcations

BMC POWER​

	TTZA	AZRA
Type	4 Cylinder In-Line	6 Cylinder In-Line
Displacement	8.5 L	12.8 L
Bore	128mm	128mm
Piston Stroke	166mm	166mm
Power Output	375-400 Hp	585-615 Hp
Torque Output	1600 Nm	2500-3000 Nm

 

[Combat-Master]

Roketsan Rocket Motors

 

[Combat-Master]

KTJ-3200

 

[Test7]

I dont wanna be off topic but our companies need to get professional PR support. More light volume , Safety glasses and a tshirt with the company logo make the firm look more professional. if KALE would pay my road fee, I would take excellent PR photos for free . PR is as important as producing the product in the 21st century..

For example

,