TR Propulsion Systems

[Saithan]

When it comes to these terms i am totally agreeing with you. Nothing can replace an engine you can manufacture and maintain independently. Moreover the door was open for cooperation with Ukranians at greater extends, but they have treated Turkey as if a customer who can directly buy and use, but not as partner when it comes to negotiations. Typically Turkish Navy who had a culture, set their own rules/criterias ( i can detail these further) which has required involvement of Turkish side at greater extends and those negotiations have not propelled further. Let's see whether they will reconsider it on 2nd batch of corvettes or simply integrate the engine on their own.

And we have come to a situation which GE has made an offer (both seeing deman of Turkish Navy and possible exports) that Ukranians couldn't make.

Pragmatism and future plans would probably dictate that we go with GE.

But do you see any chance of co-producing Zorya's engine, considering that Ukraine has gotten quite a few Nato members to support it compared to a year ago.

You are not building an engine for a licensed product helicopter that will expire in 4 years, you are building a turboshaft engine, 2 of which can lift a 6-ton millitary helicopter.

I mean things will be faster. We don't need to wait again for 5 years. T-629 will use the T-625s transmission so this is also another bonus.

I was thinking that Atak129 is combat proven and would still sell if we could deliver it without export restrictions. e.g. countries like Pakistan, also we should be delivering the first to Philippines in next month.

 

[Combat-Master]

Pragmatism and future plans would probably dictate that we go with GE.

But do you see any chance of co-producing Zorya's engine, considering that Ukraine has gotten quite a few Nato members to support it compared to a year ago.




I was thinking that Atak129 is combat proven and would still sell if we could deliver it without export restrictions. e.g. countries like Pakistan, also we should be delivering the first to Philippines in next month.

The thing is T-129 has many foreign components, we can chip away at it bit by bit making it domestic but we can still be snagged by the licensing agreement - we don't know what it incorporates exactly, perhaps there's a clause that we can only build T-129 with so and so foreign suppliers less we breach licensing...

There must be a reason why we are developing T-629. It will consolidate everything learned from T-129 into a new generation platform.

With the technological know-how and operational experiences gained from the T129 ATAK helicopter and T625 GÖKBEY multirole utility helicopter, Turkish Aerospace has launched the T629; a new indigenous attack helicopter development program. To fulfil the need of local and international attack helicopter requirements, T629 will be optimized for all environmental and weather conditions. The helicopter will incorporate several new technology features and high payload capacity to provide operators with a high degree of safety and operational benefits. Its main roles are attack, Air to Ground Combat, Air to Air Combat, Armed Reconnaissance and Surveillance, Close Air Support, Armed Escort, JAAT Operation.

-- For some reason, it was not showcased at IDEF'21 despite being on the list ..

 

[Quasar]

Sory for sharing the original text of C4defence in Turkish

Devletimiz Görev Verdiği Anda Atak Helikoptere Yerli Motor Geliştireceğiz
T129 Atak Taarruz, Taktik-Keşif Helikopterinin önündeki en büyük ihracat engeli, motoru.
Türkiye, sadece Amerika Birleşik Devletleri’nin izin verdiği ülkelere bu helikopteri satabiliyor.
Oysa başta Pakistan ve Azerbaycan’dan olmak üzere Atak helikoptere talep var.
TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii TEI Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit, “Atak helikoptere yerli motor ne zaman gelecek?” şeklindeki sorumuzu cevaplandırdı:
“Bizim geliştirdiğimiz TS1400 motorumuz Gökbey için; sivil bir motor. Projenin kurgusu öyle. Sivil bir motorla askeri bir motorun farklılıkları var. Güç sınıfları aynı, kapladıkları yer hemen hemen aynı. Bizim motorumuz aslında – form fit diyoruz – form fit olarak Atak helikopterin de içine sığabilecek, ona güç verebilecek sınıfta fakat askeri özellikleri yok. Bu dönüşümün yapılması, TS1400’den askeri bir motor türetilmesi gerekiyor. Bununla ilgili de proje teklifimizi verdik. Daha imzalamadık ama devletimiz bize bu görevi verdiği anda hızlı bir şekilde bu motorun askeri bir türevini de oluşturacağız.”
TEI Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit, TEI-PD170 motorunun Aksungur İHA’da ne zaman deneneceği yönündeki sorumuza karşılık da ANKA için TEI-PD170 motoru seri imalat faaliyetinin sürdüğünü, bu yıl içinde onlarca motoru Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii TUSAŞ’a (TAI) teslim ettiklerini ve teslimatın hâlâ sürdüğünü belirtti.
Prof. Dr. Akşit şöyle devam etti:
“TAI (TUSAŞ) bu motorun Aksungur’a adaptasyonunu bu yıl içinde tamamladı. Fuarda sergilenen Aksungur’da PD170 motoru var. Entegrasyonu tamamlandı; uçuş saati ekumule (accumulation/birikim) etmeye başlayacak.”

Ok guys may be my bad he starts the conversation with T129 but concerning ts 1400 he is only saying ATAK so a bit open to interpretation since T629 never mantioned in the text.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

There is a kind of secrecy with the t629. It has been like this from the beginning. It's not even on the company's list of projects. I don't know what kind of reason they have or what is being worked on but when it comes out, it will make quite a name for itself. At the moment, I think the helicopter continues its evolution.

 

[Combat-Master]

There is a kind of secrecy with the t629. It has been like this from the beginning. It's not even on the company's list of projects. I don't know what kind of reason they have or what is being worked on but when it comes out, it will make quite a name for itself. At the moment, I think the helicopter continues its evolution.

I think one of the reasons why it did'nt show up to IDEF'21, is possibly because the T-629 Mock-Up is more advanced compared to T-929 Mock-Up.

For instance;

Wide touch screen MFD on T629

T-929 which is a few years older has two separate non-touch screen MFDs.

Would have created lots of unessary questions, i suppose

 

[TheInsider]

Pragmatism and future plans would probably dictate that we go with GE.

But do you see any chance of co-producing Zorya's engine, considering that Ukraine has gotten quite a few Nato members to support it compared to a year ago.




I was thinking that Atak129 is combat proven and would still sell if we could deliver it without export restrictions. e.g. countries like Pakistan, also we should be delivering the first to Philippines in next month.

We can't sell T-129 after 2028. Our license deal will expire by that time. We can't sell it right now without LHTEC engines if the US denies an export license and there is no Turkish engine in sight, no deal is signed as of now. IMHO a militarized engine can be delivered in 2-3 years if it is signed today. It will fit in very well with the TS-1400(civilian) serial production calendar. So by 2024, we can start serial production of both civilian and military variants which gives us a 4 year period to sell T-129. After 2028 the same or an improved variant can be fitted to T-629

 

[Nilgiri]

But do you see any chance of co-producing Zorya's engine, considering that Ukraine has gotten quite a few Nato members to support it compared to a year ago.

I don't see much chance in co-production. India is a heavy zorya user and there has been huge shift lately to get MRO for zorya onshore (in India) as much as possible....but that has been about the maximum Zorya (Ukraine) was willing to do (even with the scale present in IN). They would be even more reluctanct with China in my estimation.

Basically it would need to be a co-development/consultancy of new (indigenous) engine...or bust....for other major players looking for breakouts in the field.

I think GE has a leg up here already with TEI partnership...at places like Eskisehir.

 

[Cypro]

There is a kind of secrecy with the t629. It has been like this from the beginning. It's not even on the company's list of projects. I don't know what kind of reason they have or what is being worked on but when it comes out, it will make quite a name for itself. At the moment, I think the helicopter continues its evolution.

May be it does not have an urgency over other programs. I think it is logical to wait 625 to mature before proceeding to 629. Also imo It was not showcased in IDEF as it is not for sale or ready product for the market. Electric Helicopter is completely new concept that needs to be proved too. I expect them to focus on it more after Gökbey matures and local engines become ready. Also may be it is going to be part of portfolio when T-129 program approaches to the end.

 

[Combat-Master]

Great info from Tumosan about their engine's (In Turkish)

 

[Abdelaziz]

Great info from Tumosan about their engine's (In Turkish)

What does it say ?

 

[Zafer]

What does it say ?

They can customize their engine to your application.

 

[Abdelaziz]

They can customize their engine to your application.

Im curious about the current stage of their engines and transmissions .. where are they now ?

 

[Zafer]

Im curious about the current stage of their engines and transmissions .. where are they now ?

I haven't watched through the whole video but at some point he says the vehicle is completely indigenous with all elements made locally (including engine and transmission).

 

[Abdelaziz]

I haven't watched through the whole video but at some point he says the vehicle is completely indigenous with all elements made locally (including engine and transmission).

When will the vehicle finish its tests and be ready for mass production ?

 

[Merzifonlu]

When will the vehicle finish its tests and be ready for mass production ?

FNSS currently uses TÜMOSAN's power pack (engine+transmission) in some of its armored solutions. FNSS company will not use this power pack in the future. FNSS is using this power pack now!

 

[Zafer]

FNSS currently uses TÜMOSAN's power pack (engine+transmission) in some of its armored solutions. FNSS company will not use this power pack in the future. FNSS is using this power pack now!

OK, I understand that FNSS will stop using Tümosan powerpack but why? Pardon my ignorance.

 

[TheInsider]

Tümosan engine is a lot better than comparable BMC engines (400HP and 600HP engines).

Tümosan Engine
Volume= 7.8L
Power=540HP (69 HP per liter)
Torque=1600Nm (205Nm per liter can give its torque at both low and high RPM)

BMC Azra Engine
Volume=12.8L
Power=600HP (47 HP per liter)
Torque= up to 2700Nm (211Nm per liter)

BMC Utku Engine
Volume: 16.2L
Power: up to 1000HP(62HP per liter)
Torque:2700Nm (167Nm per liter)


Torque per volume is very similar between the Tümosan Engine and BMC Azra engine but HP per volume of the Tümosan engine is a lot better. Sure BMC can get a lot more power from that 12.8L volume but this time torque values won't be as good.


As you can see power per liter is increased with the BMC Utku engine (still not as good as Tümosan engine. 7HP per liter is not a small amount) but torque per liter is not as good now.

 

[nakaFH]

Tümosan engine is a lot better than comparable BMC engines (400HP and 600HP engines).

Tümosan Engine
Volume= 7.8L
Power=540HP (69 HP per liter)
Torque=1600Nm (205Nm per liter can give its torque at both low and high RPM)

BMC Azra Engine
Volume=12.8L
Power=600HP (47 HP per liter)
Torque= up to 2700Nm (211Nm per liter)

BMC Utku Engine
Volume: 16.2L
Power: up to 1000HP(62HP per liter)
Torque:2700Nm (167Nm per liter)


Torque per volume is very similar between the Tümosan Engine and BMC Azra engine but HP per volume of the Tümosan engine is a lot better. Sure BMC can get a lot more power from that 12.8L volume but this time torque values won't be as good.


As you can see power per liter is increased with the BMC Utku engine (still not as good as Tümosan engine. 7HP per liter is not a small amount) but torque per liter is not as good now.

All detail info given above are true as numeral. But at the same time engine can be designed wrt customer's demand.
*With a bigger aspiration volume may get same power with low compression, adjusting fuel pressure/distribution and turbo pressure etc. with a better lifetime. But with worse weight/power ratio.

* When torque is important than HP, by the help of piston's connecting rod length, compression ratio, fuel pressure/timing/amount etc. can be adjusted.

* Shortly, to decide which engine is better is something different. Lifetime, low mtbf, low fuel consumption, low weight, amount of torque or HP etc... which one is needed and important that is valid.

We hope both companies will manufacture liable all engines which Turkey's needed.

 

[TheInsider]

This is not true. The most important metric for military vehicles is the total volume and power/torque per volume(energy density). MTU powerpack is very good because it gives such a big power/torque output from a very compact engine+transmission(powerpack). It means that powerpack(engine+transmission combo) offers the best energy density. Lower volume and higher energy density mean you can design a smaller tank/armored vehicle.

Look at Tümosans Engine+transmission and compare it to Azra.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

This is not true. The most important metric for military vehicles is the total volume and power/torque per volume(energy density). MTU powerpack is very good because it gives such a big power/torque output from a very compact engine+transmission(powerpack). It means that powerpack(engine+transmission combo) offers the best energy density. Lower volume and higher energy density mean you can design a smaller tank/armored vehicle.

Look at Tümosans Engine+transmission and compare it to Azra.

We can make a comparison table for Turkish engines bro. @Combat-Master @Test7